Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Tell me I am mistaken.

Did Nencini write that Meredith and Raffaele's DNA were found on one knife and Amanda's was found on another?

Please tell me that Nencini did not accept that as fact? The judge is delusional. This scenario has never been claimed, even by the most deluded guilter. And that includes Mignini and Massei.

And here's the answer to a question I asked that people here refuse to answer. Why did Knox take the knife that night? Nencini says, it doesn't matter, that there are many reasons why someone would take a knife back and forth, and all of those reasons are reasonable.

Wow. That's what I call judicial reasoning! At least Judge Massei was embarrassed enough to invent a bogus reason for carrying the knife. Even Mignini said she brought it with malice aforethought. Nencini has no reason, and revels in his own ignorance, and finds Sollecito and Knox guilty "just because".

Nencini's court was truly a kangaroo court.
 
Jay over at IIP has produced a pretty serviceable translation of pp310-325 of Nencini in this post.
Amanda's DNA on a different knife (reliable translation needed):
I think it should read:
On the knife was also found a different track containing DNA useful for the exam, track that was analyzed by Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni, who attributed the track to the DNA of Amanda Marie Knox. This assignment did not suffer claims by the defenses of the defendants, and the case can be considered as a common ground.

Sul coltello veniva inoltre rinvenuta una diversa traccia contenente DNA utile al l'esame, traccia che veniva analizzata dalla Dott.ssa Patrizia Stefanoni, la quale attribuiva la traccia al DNA di Amanda Marie Knox. Questa attribuzione non subiva contestazioni da parte delle difese degli imputati, e può dirsi un dato processuale pacifico.
 
Just read Andrew Gumbel's piece on the Nencini report. Say what you want about Gumbel, co-author of Honor Bound with Raffaele Sollecito. Go ahead, play the man, and not the facts.


It's no wonder they want Honor Bound banned in Italy! Even the most stubborn, biased guilter has never said these three things, which Nencini has invented, literally invented, so obviously at odds with any evidence ever alleged by anyone....

- The Nike print which Mignini originally said belonged to Sollecito, but which his family proved belonged to Guede....... according to Nencini, now is proof that Amanda Knox was in that room.

- Nencini argues that the proof of the clean-up is that no traces of Knox's DNA were found anywhere in the apartment that she shared with the victim. Anywhere? What about the "biological traces" Massei said were there? (Nencini must have taken a stupid-pill just before writing that whopper.)

- (as above) Nencini now has it that Sollecito's DNA is found on the knife with Meredith's DNA. (Let's just leave that one for the initiate to muse over. Nencini took the whole bottle of stupid pills for that one.)

Ok, let's line up. Everyone who disagrees with Nencini, move to this side of the room.

Everyone who agrees, move to that side. Which side are you on?
 
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Mach you are knowledgeable on many things, and your input here is helpful. But biology is not your forte, you really should not state as facts things that are not true.

What I stated is just true - I would add, rather obviously true - and I will paste it:

Machiavelli said:
1. There is no need to have detectable amounts of blood, in order to have DNA. And there is no need to have find blood at all, in order to find a murder weapon. DNA is, by far greater concentration than blood, in any other possible tissue a murder weapon would retain: muscle cells, bone, chartilage, epitheliums etc.
2. It's not even remotely possible to detect blood on the scale of DNA detection though a TMB test. The amounts required to detect DNA are by may magnitudes smaller. DNA can be duplicated (its amount amplificated), hemoglobine cannot. TMB has a true detection threshold, not just cautionary conventions like DNA.
3. The DNA was extracted from a sample collected from thin scratches on the blade. Those scratches are visible in crime photographies. The defence denies even the existence of the scratches.
4. What Chris says isn't correct science (see 2.).

You say:

Bone and cartilage are connective tissue, cartilage in particular is almost cell free and will contain very little DNA. Bone cartilage and muscle would have been seen when the knife was examined, in fact did not Stefanoni in fact observe cellular material? Cellular material that turned out to be starch granules? The presence of which indicates that the knife had not been thoroughly cleaned? So the knife was examined for the type of material you refer to and it was absent. The catalytic tests for haemoglobin are very sensitive and can detect only a few molecules. to get a DNA profile you need intact many DNA molecules.

Connective tissues contain lesser concentrations per volume unit of cells nuclei compared to muscular tissue and epithelial tissues. But they still contain more DNA than blood.
Anyway the point is that your punctualization of specificities of some conenctive tissues is just irrelevant. It is just irrelevant to the argument how big DNA concentrations connective tissue contains.
On the other hand, the statement that muscular cells or other cells would have been seen when the knife was observed is plainly an arbitrary statement contradicting the obvious fact: the residual biological material was in microscopic amount, it was sticking inside a microscopic scratch on the metal, it was invisible to the naked eye or to optical magnifiers as much as the bioloical material that was found on the blade handle. Which was, please note, certainly invisible. And obviously those who clened the knife they believed it was clean.

It is logically false to state that the presence of starch indicates that the knife had not been "thoroughly" cleaned (albeit we can reserve a discussion to the concept of "thoroughly"). Pay attention: the fact that something is dirty, does NOT mean that it had not been clean. My car is dirty now (it looks a bit), but I washed it thoroughly about a week ago.
Starch can originate from the corn starch used as lubricator on latice gloves (of the several experts who manipulated the knife, those who opened the handle etc.), or can be the result of using the knife during the four days subsequent to the murder, of of it being placed in a kitchen drawer possibly rather dusty and together with a bread knife, or may be a residual sticking between the blade and the handle that they failed to clean thoroughly.
In all these events, you cannot deduce anything from its presence.

Haemoglobin is a 'tough' molecule it is resistant to cleaning and will get in to crevasses. DNA is relatively soluble, and degrades easily so no profile is extractable.

It doesn't change a comma of what I said. You can still detect the presence of human DNA even in minimal aounbt from an amount less than 4-5 picograms and sometimes even if fragmentary. Because you can multiplicate DNA. But you cannot detect the presence of haemoglobin from an absolute amount of picograms. In order to detect haemoglobin, you need a concentration, and the concentration must be an an absolute amount in the order of microliters. (ps: edited to specify: here I mean that the total volume of the water solution containing haemoglobin must be in the order of microliters at least, in order to detect haemoglobin by presumptive chromatic tests; thus, you need a concentration and thus, an absolute amount to start with, that means not just 5/6 red cells).

The quantity of haemoglobin is massively greater than DNA in blood. If this knife were the murder weapon it cut a major vessel, causing massive bleeding, it would have been covered in blood. The ratio of haemoglobin to blood is orders of magnitude different than any differences in sensitivity testing, 30,000,000,000 : 1. Check the literature. Read the references given above.

But this doesn't change at all the fact that also the amount threshold to detect haemoglobin is massively higher. It is in fact a common occurrence to detect DNA but not be able to detect haemoglobin on latent traces, also on obvious blood traces, and we saw this on this case too. Several faint blood stains were negative to TMB (for example Amanda's ear blood drop on her pillow or some of the "cat blood" stains downstairs). Luminol is more sensitive but still the magnitude of detectable DNA amount is by several magnitudes smaller than the absolute amount of haemoglobin needed.

As a simple sense check, take the luminol positive traces that you ascribe to being blood. They gave a strong presumptive test for blood, but they were negative for DNA.

Well, actually they were positive to Knox's DNA, but three of them were also positive to Meredith's DNA.
So three of the nine luminol traces were in fact still positive to Meredith DNA, despite the traces had been exposed to light, bacteria and environmental degradating factors for over 46 days. You address the remaining ones, those that were not positive; however I point out that the same crime scene, anyway (as I explained above), also offers the contrary occurrence, that is: DNA was found on traces that were negative to presumptive tests, and presumptive tests were negative on traces which were likely blood. And a side note: the luminol traces are not even really fit to your example, since they are still negative to TMB (and TMB, which is "by far" less sensitive than luminol, is the test that was performed on the knife).

As an aside I also would argue that the relative ratios of Knox and Kercher DNA also prove that Knox DNA could not have arisen at the time of the crime if the knife was used in the crime. To be put simply any knife used in the way proposed would contain far more DNA of the victim than the wielder, any cleaning would clean the DNA of victim and wielder equally. The ratios would remain the same.

All depends on timings and roles. The wileder may be here also the washer of the knife. So may well leave his(her) DNA while washing the knife. The ratio is determined by one being the washer and the other being the "washed away" profile.
 
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follow the money

"Knox’s family said Tuesday that the court's reasoning was flawed, that there was no reason for Amanda Knox to steal money from Kercher. The family told ABC News that at the time of Kercher’s murder, Knox had over $4,000 in her bank account that was immediately accessible to her.
In addition, she had a job and received monthly allowances from her parents." link
 
Machiavelli,

I looked around, and as far as I can tell, the source of the "freshly bleached" quote on the internet is Ann Coulter. So, I won't be using it again until I find the original source, if there is one.

In any case, MichaelB was kind enough to post some testimony from Armando Finzi above (#5269), and this translation has him testifying he noticed the knife was "very clean" and he thought it might match the wounds on Meredith, although he hadn't seen them. What that really means, to me, is he had no reason to pick the knife up and put it into evidence, but he did it anyway.

Well, to me instead it means he had all logical reasons for picking it up, since it is obviously usable as a weapon, and since his mandate was to pick up just all items that intuitively might have a chance of having possible connection with evidence whatsoever. The police picked up many items from his apartment (that included panties, hankerchiefs cleaning rags etc.) and obviously included knives that could be potential weapons in the case. This - to me - means no "selection" nor "choice" was made by Finzi. The picking of the knife is not the result of a choice. That was an object that would just "compel" any officer to collect it.

BTW, what are the chances of those controls Nencini looked at being made public? Why not leak something that would blow the case wide-open for the prosecution?

Well, Nencini certainly is not going to make any document public. But lawyers involved in the the case may well access the case file and make it public.
 
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Thanks.

I would imagine that the prosecution would maintain that the knife could have been washed many times after the murder use. That would mean that the DNA on the handle would not necessarily have been there immediately after the murder. Amanda's DNA on the knife 4 days after means only that she used it last or put it away.

My any chance to you have a good source on sensitivities of TMB versus Luminol?

Sorry this is like asking which is tastier apple or gooseberry crumble? But is it apple crumble with pecans or almonds? Is there oatmeal in the topping. Was ginger added to the gooseberries?

There is not just one Luminol and one TMB test there are a variety. So which flavour? With all tests there is a signal and a detector. For Luminol it is light emission and for TMB colour change. What is the detector? If we say a Mark 1 eyeball, then we need to ask for Luminol what is the background light, how long has the observer dark adapted. For TMB are we using a basic strip test, or a cotton wool bud. The substrate makes a difference too. An absorbent surface would favour Luminol whilst a non absorbent surface could be wiped and allow a swab to 'concentrate' substrate.

Luminol gives you a picture.

So no simple answer. If we specify the particular circumstances we could try and get an answer.
 
Well, to me instead it means he had all logical reasons for picking it up, since it is obviously usable as a weapon, and since his mandate was to pick up just all items that intuitively might have a chance of having possible connection with evidence whatsoever. The police picked up many items from his apartment (that included panties, hankerchiefs cleaning This isrags etc.) and obviously included knives that could be potential weapons in the case. This - to me - means no "selection" nor "choice" was made by Finzi. The picking of the knife is not the result of a choice. That was an object that would just "compel" any officer to collect it.



Well, Nencini certainly is not going to make any document public. But lawyers involved in the the case may well access the case file and make it public.

This is not logical at all.

This is manufacturing evidence.

Remember that one of the reasons Raffaele was detained was the Nike sole print? Mignini said that belonged to Raffaele. The Sollecito family counted the rings on the sole, and it was proven to belong to Rudy.

Fast forward more than six years. Repeat: six years.

Judge Nencini calls this Amanda's size 37 women's shoe.

From the selection of the knife on Nov 6, 2007, to Nencini's "procedural fact" that this is now Amanda's shoe, what we witness in this case is the manufacturing of evidence.
 
Just read Andrew Gumbel's piece on the Nencini report. Say what you want about Gumbel, co-author of Honor Bound with Raffaele Sollecito. Go ahead, play the man, and not the facts.


It's no wonder they want Honor Bound banned in Italy! Even the most stubborn, biased guilter has never said these three things, which Nencini has invented, literally invented, so obviously at odds with any evidence ever alleged by anyone....

- The Nike print which Mignini originally said belonged to Sollecito, but which his family proved belonged to Guede....... according to Nencini, now is proof that Amanda Knox was in that room.

- Nencini argues that the proof of the clean-up is that no traces of Knox's DNA were found anywhere in the apartment that she shared with the victim. Anywhere? What about the "biological traces" Massei said were there? (Nencini must have taken a stupid-pill just before writing that whopper.)

- (as above) Nencini now has it that Sollecito's DNA is found on the knife with Meredith's DNA. (Let's just leave that one for the initiate to muse over. Nencini took the whole bottle of stupid pills for that one.)

Ok, let's line up. Everyone who disagrees with Nencini, move to this side of the room.

Everyone who agrees, move to that side. Which side are you on?

Over on IIP Steve Moore quotes the translation as the following:

" 'It is peculiar, for example, that no traces of Amanda Marie Knox were found in the cottage of Via Della Pergola if not those which are refer-able to the murder.' "

It looks like perhaps something is lost in the translation? I have always seen the "if not" phrase used as linking something to something more such as:

"Bill Williams is smart, if not brilliant." :D But here it's kind of linking "nothing" to "something". Maybe what the judge is saying is more like:

"It is peculiar, for example, that no traces of Amanda Marie Knox were found in the cottage of Via Della Pergola *EXCEPT* those which are refer-able to the murder."

I don't know, just a guess. I don't speak Italian and I haven't seen the actual Italian text.
 
Let's add up the prosecutorial and judicial theories about the murder.

  1. A sacrificial ritual involving All Saints Day.
  2. A sex orgy gone awry.
  3. A momentary choice of evil.
  4. Cleaning habits
  5. Amanda brought all kinds of strange men home.
  6. Poop.
  7. Amanda stole Meredith's rent money.


Have I forgot any??
 
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Over on IIP Steve Moore quotes the translation as the following:

" 'It is peculiar, for example, that no traces of Amanda Marie Knox were found in the cottage of Via Della Pergola if not those which are refer-able to the murder.' "

It looks like perhaps something is lost in the translation? I have always seen the "if not" phrase used as linking something to something more such as:

"Bill Williams is smart, if not brilliant." :D But here it's kind of linking "nothing" to "something". Maybe what the judge is saying is more like:

"It is peculiar, for example, that no traces of Amanda Marie Knox were found in the cottage of Via Della Pergola *EXCEPT* those which are refer-able to the murder."

I don't know, just a guess. I don't speak Italian and I haven't seen the actual Italian text.

I also do not speak Italian. Them that do, say this is what Nencini is saying. I stand to be corrected, when a competent translation comes out.

Any Italian speakers on this forum who can help embarrass me? Smart, but perhap's not brilliant!
 
Well, Nencini certainly is not going to make any document public. But lawyers involved in the the case may well access the case file and make it public.

LOL. I just looked at the section on negative controls. It is apparent that the idiot Nencini has no idea what a negative control is and couldn't read one if it was written in crayon.

He thinks that the negative controls were deposited because that's what the liars Stefanoni and Novelli said. In particular, he's in love with Novelli for allegedly seeking out the controls and then testifying that there was no contamination, even though we know that Novelli is lying because controls actually show contamination.

Nencini has never seen a negative control. He's just relying on the Kercher's say-anything-for-a-buck expert who is either lying about reviewing all of the controls or lying about what they show.
 
I think we should refer to this report as the Nonsense Motivations in the spirit of the PGP and their love of renaming players in the case. :p
 
At this point I don't know what to think of this Motivations report. Why in the world did Nencini put in statements that are so easily discredited? Why put in that Raf's DNA was found on the murder knife? As far as I know that was never introduced as evidence at trial. So why put in something that the defense can point out and use against him? There are apparently many other statements in there like the one about it being Amanda's shoe print in the murder room. That was never introduced at trial either. Right?

It would have been sufficient and probably easier for the ISC to be as terse as possible and just say things along the lines of we believe Stefanoni and discredit C & V. If he wanted no controversy wouldn't he have just stuck to known "facts" and "evidence" available from the court transcripts??

This is just weird.
 
Well, to me instead it means he had all logical reasons for picking it up, since it is obviously usable as a weapon, and since his mandate was to pick up just all items that intuitively might have a chance of having possible connection with evidence whatsoever. The police picked up many items from his apartment (that included panties, hankerchiefs cleaning rags etc.) and obviously included knives that could be potential weapons in the case. This - to me - means no "selection" nor "choice" was made by Finzi. The picking of the knife is not the result of a choice. That was an object that would just "compel" any officer to collect it.


snip
I am a bit stumped by Italian use of language sometimes. Where you say 'logical reasons' we would say it was reasonable to collect the knife because ... It was reasonable to collect knives from Patrick's place. More reasonable than from Raf's given that Amanda has said she kind of remembered that Patrick killed her. What 'logical reasons' were there not to collect knives from Patrick's place?
 
At this point I don't know what to think of this Motivations report. Why in the world did Nencini put in statements that are so easily discredited? Why put in that Raf's DNA was found on the murder knife? As far as I know that was never introduced as evidence at trial. So why put in something that the defense can point out and use against him? There are apparently many other statements in there like the one about it being Amanda's shoe print in the murder room. That was never introduced at trial either. Right?

It would have been sufficient and probably easier for the ISC to be as terse as possible and just say things along the lines of we believe Stefanoni and discredit C & V. If he wanted no controversy wouldn't he have just stuck to known "facts" and "evidence" available from the court transcripts??

This is just weird.
Nencini seems to be doing all in his power to boot this case. First he talks to reporters, says that he has to convince popular jurors to vote for conviction, then he says that if only Sollecito had allowed himself to be cross-examined, that it would have gone better for him.

He gets himself investigated on that alone. It is unclear how the investigators into Nencini's behaviour will follow-up and if it will have any effect on the coming Cassazione decision.

THEN...... he invents things out of whole cloth and puts them glaringly into his report. These are things not alleged by Mignini, Comodi, Massei, or Crini. They are complete inventions, nakedly unsupported by the evidence, invented a full six years plus after the investigations started.

What the hell is going on?
 
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What I stated is just true - I would add, rather obviously true - and I will paste it:



You say:



Connective tissues contain lesser concentrations per volume unit of cells nuclei compared to muscular tissue and epithelial tissues. But they still contain more DNA than blood.
Anyway the point is that your punctualization of specificities of some conenctive tissues is just irrelevant. It is just irrelevant to the argument how big DNA concentrations connective tissue contains.
On the other hand, the statement that muscular cells or other cells would have been seen when the knife was observed is plainly an arbitrary statement contradicting the obvious fact: the residual biological material was in microscopic amount, it was sticking inside a microscopic scratch on the metal, it was invisible to the naked eye or to optical magnifiers as much as the bioloical material that was found on the blade handle. Which was, please note, certainly invisible. And obviously those who clened the knife they believed it was clean.

It is logically false to state that the presence of starch indicates that the knife had not been "thoroughly" cleaned (albeit we can reserve a discussion to the concept of "thoroughly"). Pay attention: the fact that something is dirty, does NOT mean that it had not been clean. My car is dirty now (it looks a bit), but I washed it thoroughly about a week ago.
Starch can originate from the corn starch used as lubricator on latice gloves (of the several experts who manipulated the knife, those who opened the handle etc.), or can be the result of using the knife during the four days subsequent to the murder, of of it being placed in a kitchen drawer possibly rather dusty and together with a bread knife, or may be a residual sticking between the blade and the handle that they failed to clean thoroughly.
In all these events, you cannot deduce anything from its presence.



It doesn't change a comma of what I said. You can still detect the presence of human DNA even in minimal aounbt from an amount less than 4-5 picograms and sometimes even if fragmentary. Because you can multiplicate DNA. But you cannot detect the presence of haemoglobin from an absolute amount of picograms. In order to detect haemoglobin, you need a concentration, and the concentration must be an an absolute amount in the order of microliters. (ps: edited to specify: here I mean that the total volume of the water solution containing haemoglobin must be in the order of microliters at least, in order to detect haemoglobin by presumptive chromatic tests; thus, you need a concentration and thus, an absolute amount to start with, that means not just 5/6 red cells).



But this doesn't change at all the fact that also the amount threshold to detect haemoglobin is massively higher. It is in fact a common occurrence to detect DNA but not be able to detect haemoglobin on latent traces, also on obvious blood traces, and we saw this on this case too. Several faint blood stains were negative to TMB (for example Amanda's ear blood drop on her pillow or some of the "cat blood" stains downstairs). Luminol is more sensitive but still the magnitude of detectable DNA amount is by several magnitudes smaller than the absolute amount of haemoglobin needed.



Well, actually they were positive to Knox's DNA, but three of them were also positive to Meredith's DNA.
So three of the nine luminol traces were in fact still positive to Meredith DNA, despite the traces had been exposed to light, bacteria and environmental degradating factors for over 46 days. You address the remaining ones, those that were not positive; however I point out that the same crime scene, anyway (as I explained above), also offers the contrary occurrence, that is: DNA was found on traces that were negative to presumptive tests, and presumptive tests were negative on traces which were likely blood. And a side note: the luminol traces are not even really fit to your example, since they are still negative to TMB (and TMB, which is "by far" less sensitive than luminol, is the test that was performed on the knife).



All depends on timings and roles. The wileder may be here also the washer of the knife. So may well leave his(her) DNA while washing the knife. The ratio is determined by one being the washer and the other being the "washed away" profile.

Mach why do you do this? This is not a matter of opinion but of objective fact. Blood will contain about 1000 nucleated cells per micro litre vs, about 1 nuclei per micro litre of muscle, cartilage far less. As previously discussed most shed epithelials have apoptosed so do not have analysable DNA. Muscle cells are not small they are several millimetres in length (a single neurone with a single nucleus may be a metre long). Most cells have better things to do in life than reproduction, they have to earn a living, muscle cells are full of muscle stuff, they don't reproduce so they don't need much nuclear DNA. In comparison white blood cells are small and pretty much all nuclei.

Hemostix (a TMB based test) will detect 1 nano litre of blood as a dried stain so about 1000 RBC and 1 WBC worth. (i.e. a volume of blood that contains about 1 copy of a genome or about 6 picograms DNA, LCNDNA is below 200 picograms), any less than this and there will be no DNA to be amplified! The sensitivity for haemoglobin testing for blood is greater than DNA testing for blood; standard typing requires about 0.5 - 2ng DNA i.e. about 100 times the detection limit for hemostix. Another difference is haemoglobin is quite resistant to degradation so will hang around in a testable state. You need a full genome to type, you cannot type less than say 6 pg. Even this level is really experimental. So you cannot do it on 4 or 5 pg.

ref J Forensic Sci, May 2008, Vol. 53, No. 3 doi: 10.1111/j.1556-4029.2008.00727.x

Interesting that whilst you do not accept there can be secondary transfer of DNA you allow it for starch. They should not have been using latex gloves as these tend to transfer DNA, but should have been using plastic gloves, which reduce the risk of DNA contamination.

I am grateful that you agree that the DNA on the handle from Knox is likely to have been deposited at a time subsequent to the murder and cleaning of the knife if it was the murder weapon so that no conclusion can be drawn from its presence.

PS for Grinder depending on circumstances Luminol can detect haemoglobin at about a ten fold greater dilution than hemostix.
 
Just read Andrew Gumbel's piece on the Nencini report. Say what you want about Gumbel, co-author of Honor Bound with Raffaele Sollecito. Go ahead, play the man, and not the facts.


It's no wonder they want Honor Bound banned in Italy! Even the most stubborn, biased guilter has never said these three things, which Nencini has invented, literally invented, so obviously at odds with any evidence ever alleged by anyone....

- The Nike print which Mignini originally said belonged to Sollecito, but which his family proved belonged to Guede....... according to Nencini, now is proof that Amanda Knox was in that room.

- Nencini argues that the proof of the clean-up is that no traces of Knox's DNA were found anywhere in the apartment that she shared with the victim. Anywhere? What about the "biological traces" Massei said were there? (Nencini must have taken a stupid-pill just before writing that whopper.)

- (as above) Nencini now has it that Sollecito's DNA is found on the knife with Meredith's DNA. (Let's just leave that one for the initiate to muse over. Nencini took the whole bottle of stupid pills for that one.)

Ok, let's line up. Everyone who disagrees with Nencini, move to this side of the room.

Everyone who agrees, move to that side. Which side are you on?
Interesting article from the co-author of Raffaele’s book, must admit I haven’t seen anything about the publication of the Florence motivations on any news channels here.

Do you know whether Hellmann or V & C were mentioned or whether any of their findings made it into the motivations?
 
I am a bit stumped by Italian use of language sometimes. Where you say 'logical reasons' we would say it was reasonable to collect the knife because ... It was reasonable to collect knives from Patrick's place. More reasonable than from Raf's given that Amanda has said she kind of remembered that Patrick killed her. What 'logical reasons' were there not to collect knives from Patrick's place?

"Logical" is actually an Italian weasel word. It has no substantive meaning as they use it. It's just something that they believe makes them impervious to criticism or attack. You can remove "logical" from any Italian phrase or statement and it will mean just the same thing. It's like saying "quite."
 
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