Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[stilicho]

Sure. PMF and TJMK both said that about Hellmann.

This is getting difficult without a program. Rudi's time of scream is not credible per Nencini but is per PIP. Rudi saying they fought over money is credible to Nencini but not PIP. Rudi saying Amanda wasn't there is credible to the PIP but Nencini. Rudi claiming he was in the bathroom isn't credible to anybody. Rudi claiming he had nothing to do with the broken window is credible to Nencini but not the PIP.

I'd like to know what happened to the money. Rudi certainly didn't claim they gave it to him for drugs. They didn't find it with Amanda but Rudi had the funds to go to Germany and exist for 2 1/2 weeks.

They say that Meredith wouldn't engage in a sex game because she wasn't that kind of person, based on what?

Have they given a TOD yet?

While there are those here that believe some of Rudi's claims should be believed I disagree with anything said after the Skype. I have never understood why he would say Amanda definitely wasn't there but allow for Raf to be there.

The Nencini court has finally confirmed the end of the Lone Wolf "theory". He has confirmed that Sollecito's kitchen knife was used in the attack. Sollecito will be in prison before the conclusion of this year and Knox will be back in prison by the end of the following year.

Bongiorno knew the Lone Wolf "theory" was on its last legs after Hellmann was correctly rejected by Cassation. That's why she so desperately tried to decouple Sollecito from the Knox albatross.

It's over.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill given that the appeal trial is supposed to be some sort of trial de nova why should the Massei and Nencini motivations line up?

Certainly that can't be a requirement since Hellmann and Massei didn't line up and the ISC could have approved Hellmann's verdict.

Mach should be back soon and he can explain why motivations don't need to match up even if they are the same ultimate verdict.

In the US and UK (the only places that count ) we give out verdicts and never explain what happened. If one were to poll a jury I'm sure people would have different ideas of how the crime went down. The Italian system puts it in writing for all to see and that's the difference.

Do you see that if you can accept a completely different motivation from Hellmann that you can't expect Nencini to be the same as Massei?

If another court finds them innocent again and they don't go along with Rudi's shoe flying off during the struggle will that trouble you? If that court found she was innocent of calunnia would that trouble you?

Sorry Grinder, this makes no sense. If two courts find someone innocent, for two mutually exclusive reasons, that is one thing. For two courts to find someone guilty for two mutually contradictory reasons (not exactly the parallel here, so don't get me wrong) that is quite another.

Nice try.

 

[Bill Williams]

The Nencini court has finally confirmed the end of the Lone Wolf "theory". He has confirmed that Sollecito's kitchen knife was used in the attack. Sollecito will be in prison before the conclusion of this year and Knox will be back in prison by the end of the following year.

Bongiorno knew the Lone Wolf "theory" was on its last legs after Hellmann was correctly rejected by Cassation. That's why she so desperately tried to decouple Sollecito from the Knox albatross.

It's over.

Welcome back, Stilicho. Right on schedule.

Any comments on time of death, and how gastiric emptying plays into this? Or is this just a drive by posting?

 

[kwill]

Great post. Now that it is settled, you will tell us the time of death, and how gastric emptying informs that.

Yes, I'm curious about this, too. Also, did Amanda Knox pack that kitchen knife over to her flat that night for self-protection, cooking, or murder?

This is like an Onion version of a trial. The PGP daily exposes some of the most disturbing aspects of human behavior, which is their problem and not mine.

I'll look forward to seeing what the ECHR makes of this absurdity.

 

[Desert Fox]

Personally I think Nencini has performed his role very well, nothwithstanding the emotional, xenophobic and visceral beliefs to the contrary shown by some commentators, here and elsewhere. Of course he's foreign and "Italian" so by definition very suspect but ...

Let's all move on now, get this guilty pair behind bars. There are always going to be winners and losers in every situation and this one has been going on for far too long. The supporters of this gruesome and nerdy couple need to reflect long and hard on their sentimental allegiance to a PLAINLY dysfunctional, lying and murderous pair and ask themselves how they were unconsciously driven to side with them.

Make no mistake whatsoever, RS and AK are both going to get their dues and the sooner their supporters, including all the fake lawyers, philosophers, biologists etc., swallow that bitter pill and get back to their "proper" jobs (if they have them) the sooner some semblance of sanity can return after 6+ years. Enough now for crying out loud. Game over.

This is pretty typical of those who argue for guilt. . .No real evidence of guilt being argued. Really all I want is a bit of evidence of guilt.

 

[stilicho]

link "The explanation added that the group had gathered to use drugs before the 2007 murder." And the evidence for this is what? There are no phone calls or emails that indicate communication with Guede. There is no evidence that Amanda or Raffaele took any other drug besides cannabis. And how was all of this supposed to happen between 9:30 and 10 PM? This is pure conjecture, and any system which allows this sort of "reasoning" does not deserve the slightest bit of esteem.

Both Knox and Sollecito told the police they were consuming drugs the evening of Meredith's murder. Knox admitted that she had lied about drug use and changed her story during the November 5 interview.

She blamed her decision to lie about drug use on Laura, one of her roommates. She explains the whole thing in her book.

Read it.

 

[analemma]

Assuming that it was a fight over money that got out of hand, in the US that would be second degree murder (or whatever the state equivalent is)
That is not the equivalent of first degree murder and rape.
I read "We will find them guilty" and then write something vague after the fact.
Otherwise, they should have gotten something like 10 years.

Fight over money?
I thought that I read somewhere that Amanda about $4000 in her checking account at the time of the murders
Does anyone know if that is true?
If Amanda had $4000 why would amanda fight over money?
Analemma

 

[Chris_Halkides]

cannabis

Both Knox and Sollecito told the police they were consuming drugs the evening of Meredith's murder. Knox admitted that she had lied about drug use and changed her story during the November 5 interview.

She blamed her decision to lie about drug use on Laura, one of her roommates. She explains the whole thing in her book.

Read it.

I have, and your characterization of it and of my comment are both misleading. As I said before, the only thing that Amanda acknowledged consuming was cannabis. As for Laura's encouraging Amanda to lie, that concerned the fact that the four women used cannabis at the flat. Let's not conflate the two. I do agree about one thing, namely that reading Amanda's book is a good idea. I will have to mark this day in my calendar.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

pure fantasy from a petty functionary

Fight over money?
I thought that I read somewhere that Amanda about $4000 in her checking account at the time of the murders
Does anyone know if that is true?
If Amanda had $4000 why would amanda fight over money?
Analemma

She did, and additionally her mother held about $9000 for her to use, in an account back in the U.S. Charlie Wilkes has discussed this previously, here or elsewhere.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

a refutation of the argument from authority

This is pretty typical of those who argue for guilt. . .No real evidence of guilt being argued. Really all I want is a bit of evidence of guilt.

The arguments presented here for guilt today are basically what they were in early 2010, that the court found them guilty, so they must be guilty. They should read Vibio's comments to understand the error of this line of thought.

 

[Bill Williams]

Yes, I'm curious about this, too. Also, did Amanda Knox pack that kitchen knife over to her flat that night for self-protection, cooking, or murder?
This is like an Onion version of a trial. The PGP daily exposes some of the most disturbing aspects of human behavior, which is their problem and not mine.

I'll look forward to seeing what the ECHR makes of this absurdity.

This is one of the things to look out for in the motivations report.

So far, Nencini has said (acc. to summaries) that it does not really matter.

I think the Kerchers themselves deserve to know, though. Did Knox, who dealt the final blow, go over there with that intent, and carried the knife for that purpose?

Nencini seems to have said that it does not matter, what matters is the fact that it was transported.

It mattered enough to Judge Massei, that he at least had to invent a cockamamie scenario for Knox to have carried it, without the intent to murder.

Stilicho seems to think that a finding of judicial fact is important - he says that it is good news that Nencini has established as judicial fact the multiple attacker scenario.

I wonder if Stilicho would like to comment on the issue of the motivation for the transport of the knife? I thought not.

Maybe Machiavelli will return, too, to tell us why it's not important - even though the issue was important enough to Massei to make further inventions of fact.

 

[carbonjam72]

Pass me a bucket...

The first thing I am going to check in the English translation is why C&V got chucked.

Note: Cassazione overturned Hellmann partly because of C&V. What was it that offended Cassazione so much? C&V, without reference back to Judge Hellmann, decided on their own not to test 36i. Cassazione said that Hellmann, then, needed overturning because the Judge had abrogated his role as judge to the experts, it's the judge who determines what is and isn't tested.

So..... Nencini ordered 36i tested. And...... it revealed nothing, nothing at least to merit the overturning of C&V and hence Hellmann's acquittals.

There were are, Alice, down the rabbit hole.

The finding that Rudy acted alone, and the break in wasn't staged. If Rudy acted alone, then the Italian police system failed to protect Meredith by allowing Guede to remain free.
Hellman tried to buy them off by supporting the Calumnia conviction, thereby justifying the illegal and abusive interrogations that led to the confused statements by AK and RS, but Cassione couldn't stomach the indignity of Italian Justice with egg on its face over Guede. So 2 innocent people must spend the majority of their lives in prison, and Rafaele may be dutifully fleeced of his rightful inheritance by the vulture Maresca, and the ever dignified Kerchers. Italian justice on display before the whole world, has anyone told them?

Pass me a bucket, I have to throw up. No, no, no, I couldn't eat another bite...

 

[Desert Fox]

Fight over money?
I thought that I read somewhere that Amanda about $4000 in her checking account at the time of the murders
Does anyone know if that is true?
If Amanda had $4000 why would amanda fight over money?
Analemma

I agree but I am stating that even if money was a valid argument, it turns the crime from (using the US terms) First Degree Murder and Rape into Second Degree Murder.

 

[anglolawyer]

Both Knox and Sollecito told the police they were consuming drugs the evening of Meredith's murder. Knox admitted that she had lied about drug use and changed her story during the November 5 interview.

She blamed her decision to lie about drug use on Laura, one of her roommates. She explains the whole thing in her book.

Read it.

if you re-read the post you are replying to it should be clear that Chris was referring to missing evidence of a meeting, not of drug use.

 

[Desert Fox]

The arguments presented here for guilt today are basically what they were in early 2010, that the court found them guilty, so they must be guilty. They should read Vibio's comments to understand the error of this line of thought.

Argument from authority can be complex. In many cases, we simply do not have the ability to look at everything involved. Being taht you are in a related field, I would likely defer to your authority on an issue with DNA for example.
Would try to understand the issues however.

Still, in this case your statement seems valid. Not that the court found them guilty for good reaons just that they found them guilty.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

my hypothesis

"Knox, Sollecito and Guede attacked Kercher together and pushed her into her bedroom, the court said. Guede assaulted her to 'satisfy his sexual instinct' while Sollecito and Knox participated 'in a desire to abuse and humiliate the English girl.'" link. The evidence that Mr. Sollecito had any desire to humiliate Ms. Kercher is nil. However, since speculation is the order of the day, here is mine: When Amanda and Meredith went to the chocolate festival, Meredith hoarded all of the coconut ones for herself. Amanda seethed, and it all boiled over on 1 November. An Italian trial is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.

 

[analemma]

I agree but I am stating that even if money was a valid argument, it turns the crime from (using the US terms) First Degree Murder and Rape into Second Degree Murder.

Yes. I agree with your assessment of the crime.
I was really asking if anyoen knew for sure that Amanda had about $4000 in her checking account at the time.
Analemma

 

[Diocletus]

"Knox, Sollecito and Guede attacked Kercher together and pushed her into her bedroom, the court said. Guede assaulted her to 'satisfy his sexual instinct' while Sollecito and Knox participated 'in a desire to abuse and humiliate the English girl.'"

If you think about it, this is really the perviest version yet. Knox and Sollecito are slicing the girl's neck while Guede is getting himself off? That's really weird.

 

[proudfootz]

Personally I think Nencini has performed his role very well, nothwithstanding the emotional, xenophobic and visceral beliefs to the contrary shown by some commentators, here and elsewhere. Of course he's foreign and "Italian" so by definition very suspect but ...

Let's all move on now, get this guilty pair behind bars. There are always going to be winners and losers in every situation and this one has been going on for far too long. The supporters of this gruesome and nerdy couple need to reflect long and hard on their sentimental allegiance to a PLAINLY dysfunctional, lying and murderous pair and ask themselves how they were unconsciously driven to side with them.

Make no mistake whatsoever, RS and AK are both going to get their dues and the sooner their supporters, including all the fake lawyers, philosophers, biologists etc., swallow that bitter pill and get back to their "proper" jobs (if they have them) the sooner some semblance of sanity can return after 6+ years. Enough now for crying out loud. Game over.

Can't you see this for what is truly is - a vast conspiracy from the Pope (and those who are pulling the strings at the Vatican) on down to the homeless guy on the street?

Most likely Sollecito and Knox were genetically manipulated to be the perfect patsies by the Reptilians. Incapable of doing wrong, innocent of anything more than being in love, but also incapable of telling the truth.

Is it a coincidence both families were Catholic? No doubt some super-secret cabal of Jesuits or Opus Dei were involved. The set up must have taken generations, as the parents don't seem quite right either, but these evil forces are ancient and very patient. Don't think for a second the powers that built the Pyramids and sank Atlantis couldn't pull this off.

It should be obvious that all the evidence was cooked up. Why is Guede in prison? On the basis of tainted DNA? Fingerprints or shoe prints conveniently 'found' by incompetent investigators? And why did the Pope need to have Kercher killed? Who ordered the rest of the residents to be absent that night? What did she know that she needed to be silenced? Like the passengers on Flight 370, Meredith was probably an investigator who got too close to the explosive truth!

There are many unanswered questions, but now that we know it was a conspiracy even more diabolical than 9/11 with the incontrovertible proof published on the internet there is nowhere the real killers can hide. Maybe OJ can help!

 

[Bill Williams]

This is what Judge Massei said about the issue of multiple attackers. He basically says that even though most, if not all, the forensic scientists cannot rule out a single attacker, that there are other reasons to suppose multiple attackers. Those other reasons which Massei offers is below.

But first, Massei's summary of the "mutliple attacker" issue - it will be interesting to see if Nencini departs from this or is simply confirming Massei:

The consultants and forensic scientists have asserted that from the point of view
of forensic science, it cannot be ruled out that the author of the injuries could have
been a single attacker, because the bruises and the wounds from a pointed and
cutting weapon are not in themselves incompatible with the action of a single
person. With regard to this, it is nevertheless observed that the contribution of each
discipline is specifically in the domain of the specific competence of that discipline,
and in fact the consultants and forensic experts concentrated their attention on the
aspects specifically belonging to forensic science: time of death, cause of death,
elements indicating sexual violence, the injuries present on the body of the victim,
and the causes and descriptions of these. The answer given above concerning the
possibility of their being inflicted by the action of a single person or by more than
one was given in relation to these specific duties and questions, which belong
precisely to the domain of forensic science, and the meaning of this answer was thus
that there are no scientific elements arising directly from forensic science which
could rule out the injuries having been caused by the action of a single person. But,
to actually answer this question, of whether the criminal action which determined
Meredith's death was the action of one person alone or several people acting
together, it is necessary to take into account, not only the contributions of forensic
science, but also other elements which have emerged and which are relevant to this
point, and to evaluate the situation in a way which takes the comprehensive picture
into account.​

Even though the forensics do not rule out a single attacker, Massei says the following to rule it out:

-Meredith's personality and physical condition
-she was dressed and awake, not dressed when found
-nature of wounds being non-defensive
-the breaking of the bra
-the varying intensity of the wounds, and from left and from the right
-the organizing and staging of the crime-scene, which has already been shown to have been Sollecito and Knox​

There you have it. The case for multiple attackers. (Even if true, the forensics people assumedly looking at all the same stuff Massei looks at do not rule out a single attacker!!!).....

Depends on the ruling on the crime-scene staging and clean. Not the osmostic estimation of the forensics in the crime-room.