Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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So let's get this straight. Nencini rejects everything the new prosecutor asserts in court and convicts anyway. And Nencini then gets to advance theories that the defence was not allowed to defend against.....

Why have a trial?
 
Chris_Halkides said:
Link "It noted that at least two knives were used to attack 21-year-old Meredith Kercher and that there were also finger imprints on her body, indicating she had been restrained -- ruling out the possibility that Guede was the only attacker." If there were fingerholds strong enough to cause bruising, then they should have been swabbed for DNA (unless the areas were covered in blood). DNA can get transferred in cases of attempted strangulation. "the court...statements by Guede under police questioning that Kercher had blamed Knox for taking money from the British student's room." So Guede's words, which were not subject to cross-examination, are the basis for yet another pseudo-motive? Whose DNA was found on Meredith's bag? How did Rudy know what Meredith supposedly said to Amanda in English? I will grant that Rudy knew a few English words, but that is not the same as being competent to follow a heated conversation.
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Simply put, Nencini is a stupid idiot.

The bruises and wounds are consistent with being grabbed by the lower forearms and being swung around the room by one person, and into furniture and finally onto the floor, all by one person.

Bruises around the wrist would have been more consistent with being restrained by more than one person, and there were no bruises around the wrist.

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pure speculation, unencumbered by facts

"The court also said that Kercher was killed by neck wounds from two knives, one wielded by Knox and the other by Sollecito." And they know this because the second knife was recovered and Sollecito's fingerprints were found on it? No, more conjecture from a petty functionary. link
 
Chris_Halkides said:
"The court also said that Kercher was killed by neck wounds from two knives, one wielded by Knox and the other by Sollecito." And they know this because the second knife was recovered and Sollecito's fingerprints were found on it? No, more conjecture from a petty functionary. link
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I think they might be saying that the flick knife was used by Sollecito.
 
Poor Rudy. He didn't break in . . .Amanda let him in. And then, he's just standing there while Amanda starts a fight with Meredith over $, and then Amanda and Raffaelle kill Meredith with their knives. Rudy tries to help but he can't do anything. Maybe he gets a little excited and some semen flies out of his penis, and also, Merdith's vagina got contaminated with his DNA. Other than that, he can't do anything, and so he flees.

He gets 30 16 7 years for this? Outrage.
 
So the double DNA knife has stood up? Huh? Presumably C-V get chucked out because of some 'illogic' attending their appointment or due to Hellman's incorrect treatment of their evidence which he substituted/failed to substitute for his own judgment, leaving Stefanoni gleaming and spotless.

How can the knife stand up?
 
Bill Williams said:
So it's not a sex-game gone wrong? Does this mean that the ISC will overturn Nencini because he failed to properly investigate THAT motive?
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A US judge might make something second degree murder after a disputed first degree / rape and sentence the defendants to "time served" in kind of a hope of getting the trial to go away.
This though does not make sense.
 
In my opinion, Cassazione has a problem on its hands. But they will simply ignore it.

How will Cassazione reconcile Nencini's conclusions for guilt with Massei's conclusions for guilt?

They are not totally mutually exclusive.... but this is something I do not get. So far Nencini's description of this crime is different from Massei's?

Why would Knox kill over an escalating fight over money? The "Amanda Knox" written about in Massei is not that person. Massei's "Amanda Knox" killed as an inexplicable choice for evil, inexplicably joining in what was essentially Rudy's crime of lust.

Now.... Rudy is the SOLE witness to this conflict over money. Maybe they will soon make Rudy a Saint.

But how can Italy stand having two somewhat mutually exclusive reasons for guilt?
 
I've heard that Italian judges will sometimes deliberately sabotage a verdict they feel required to deliver but don't agree with, so they can get out of a tight spot. At this point, who can read what the hell these idiots are up to. It's hard not to believe they all aren't exactly as brutal and corrupt as they appear.
 
carbonjam72 said:
I've heard that Italian judges will sometimes deliberately sabotage a verdict they feel required to deliver but don't agree with, so they can get out of a tight spot. At this point, who can read what the hell these idiots are up to. It's hard not to believe they all aren't exactly as brutal and corrupt as they appear.
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Do you have a source on that?
 
Chris_Halkides said:
link "The explanation added that the group had gathered to use drugs before the 2007 murder." And the evidence for this is what? There are no phone calls or emails that indicate communication with Guede. There is no evidence that Amanda or Raffaele took any other drug besides cannabis. And how was all of this supposed to happen between 9:30 and 10 PM? This is pure conjecture, and any system which allows this sort of "reasoning" does not deserve the slightest bit of esteem.
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Nencini may be playing fast and loose with the occasion - in which AK, albeit, not RS, admitted partaking - when Amanda smoked with the guys downstairs, some weeks before. In the Italian judicial mind, presumably that's "compatible," and stuff.
 
An Excellent Report

Personally I think Nencini has performed his role very well, nothwithstanding the emotional, xenophobic and visceral beliefs to the contrary shown by some commentators, here and elsewhere. Of course he's foreign and "Italian" so by definition very suspect but ...

Let's all move on now, get this guilty pair behind bars. There are always going to be winners and losers in every situation and this one has been going on for far too long. The supporters of this gruesome and nerdy couple need to reflect long and hard on their sentimental allegiance to a PLAINLY dysfunctional, lying and murderous pair and ask themselves how they were unconsciously driven to side with them.

Make no mistake whatsoever, RS and AK are both going to get their dues and the sooner their supporters, including all the fake lawyers, philosophers, biologists etc., swallow that bitter pill and get back to their "proper" jobs (if they have them) the sooner some semblance of sanity can return after 6+ years. Enough now for crying out loud. Game over.
 
Supercalifragilistic said:
Personally I think Nencini has performed his role very well, nothwithstanding the emotional, xenophobic and visceral beliefs to the contrary shown by some commentators, here and elsewhere. Of course he's foreign and "Italian" so by definition very suspect but ...

Let's all move on now, get this guilty pair behind bars. There are always going to be winners and losers in every situation and this one has been going on for far too long. The supporters of this gruesome and nerdy couple need to reflect long and hard on their sentimental allegiance to a PLAINLY dysfunctional, lying and murderous pair and ask themselves how they were unconsciously driven to side with them.

Make no mistake whatsoever, RS and AK are both going to get their dues and the sooner their supporters, including all the fake lawyers, philosophers, biologists etc., swallow that bitter pill and get back to their "proper" jobs (if they have them) the sooner some semblance of sanity can return after 6+ years. Enough now for crying out loud. Game over.
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What on earth are you talking about. We have at least 6 more years of this. Awesome!
 
Desert Fox said:
Do you have a source on that?
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Sure. PMF and TJMK both said that about Hellmann.

This is getting difficult without a program. Rudi's time of scream is not credible per Nencini but is per PIP. Rudi saying they fought over money is credible to Nencini but not PIP. Rudi saying Amanda wasn't there is credible to the PIP but Nencini. Rudi claiming he was in the bathroom isn't credible to anybody. Rudi claiming he had nothing to do with the broken window is credible to Nencini but not the PIP.

I'd like to know what happened to the money. Rudi certainly didn't claim they gave it to him for drugs. They didn't find it with Amanda but Rudi had the funds to go to Germany and exist for 2 1/2 weeks.

They say that Meredith wouldn't engage in a sex game because she wasn't that kind of person, based on what?

Have they given a TOD yet?

While there are those here that believe some of Rudi's claims should be believed I disagree with anything said after the Skype. I have never understood why he would say Amanda definitely wasn't there but allow for Raf to be there.
 
Supercalifragilistic said:
Personally I think Nencini has performed his role very well, nothwithstanding the emotional, xenophobic and visceral beliefs to the contrary shown by some commentators, here and elsewhere. Of course he's foreign and "Italian" so by definition very suspect but ...

Let's all move on now, get this guilty pair behind bars. There are always going to be winners and losers in every situation and this one has been going on for far too long. The supporters of this gruesome and nerdy couple need to reflect long and hard on their sentimental allegiance to a PLAINLY dysfunctional, lying and murderous pair and ask themselves how they were unconsciously driven to side with them.

Make no mistake whatsoever, RS and AK are both going to get their dues and the sooner their supporters, including all the fake lawyers, philosophers, biologists etc., swallow that bitter pill and get back to their "proper" jobs (if they have them) the sooner some semblance of sanity can return after 6+ years. Enough now for crying out loud. Game over.
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Right.

You need to respond to the immediate, fact-based deconstructions that have appeared on this page. Your post is nonsense, because you have no sensible reply to the rampant flaws exposed in this case, and the myriad motivations and judgments which have been produced to explain one murder.
 
Supercalifragilistic said:
Personally I think Nencini has performed his role very well, nothwithstanding the emotional, xenophobic and visceral beliefs to the contrary shown by some commentators, here and elsewhere. Of course he's foreign and "Italian" so by definition very suspect but ...

Let's all move on now, get this guilty pair behind bars. There are always going to be winners and losers in every situation and this one has been going on for far too long. The supporters of this gruesome and nerdy couple need to reflect long and hard on their sentimental allegiance to a PLAINLY dysfunctional, lying and murderous pair and ask themselves how they were unconsciously driven to side with them.

Make no mistake whatsoever, RS and AK are both going to get their dues and the sooner their supporters, including all the fake lawyers, philosophers, biologists etc., swallow that bitter pill and get back to their "proper" jobs (if they have them) the sooner some semblance of sanity can return after 6+ years. Enough now for crying out loud. Game over.
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Great post. Now that it is settled, you will tell us the time of death, and how gastric emptying informs that.

Now that it is settled, you will tell us how an issue gleaned from a fast-track trial (a regular process without the trial phase) can be used against a pair who are not represented in that process! I mean, you believe it is settled, so please settle it for us.

To whit: the only witness in the world to Meredith and Amanda allegedly fighting over money is Rudy Guede. Can you settle this for us - why should we believe Rudy about this? Nencini does - he's convicted two innocents over it.

SuperCal - why do you never deal with issues such as these?
 
Bill given that the appeal trial is supposed to be some sort of trial de nova why should the Massei and Nencini motivations line up?

Certainly that can't be a requirement since Hellmann and Massei didn't line up and the ISC could have approved Hellmann's verdict.

Mach should be back soon and he can explain why motivations don't need to match up even if they are the same ultimate verdict.

In the US and UK (the only places that count :p) we give out verdicts and never explain what happened. If one were to poll a jury I'm sure people would have different ideas of how the crime went down. The Italian system puts it in writing for all to see and that's the difference.

Do you see that if you can accept a completely different motivation from Hellmann that you can't expect Nencini to be the same as Massei?

If another court finds them innocent again and they don't go along with Rudi's shoe flying off during the struggle will that trouble you? If that court found she was innocent of calunnia would that trouble you?
 
anglolawyer said:
So the double DNA knife has stood up? Huh? Presumably C-V get chucked out because of some 'illogic' attending their appointment or due to Hellman's incorrect treatment of their evidence which he substituted/failed to substitute for his own judgment, leaving Stefanoni gleaming and spotless.

How can the knife stand up?
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The first thing I am going to check in the English translation is why C&V got chucked.

Note: Cassazione overturned Hellmann partly because of C&V. What was it that offended Cassazione so much? C&V, without reference back to Judge Hellmann, decided on their own not to test 36i. Cassazione said that Hellmann, then, needed overturning because the Judge had abrogated his role as judge to the experts, it's the judge who determines what is and isn't tested.

So..... Nencini ordered 36i tested. And...... it revealed nothing, nothing at least to merit the overturning of C&V and hence Hellmann's acquittals.

There were are, Alice, down the rabbit hole.
 
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