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Moderated Donald Sterling, Owner of the Clippers, is Racist

Yet another misunderstanding of freedom of speech. The government did not arrest him for what he said. Hence, he his First Amendment rights were not violated.

I think people are confusing Constitutional right to say whatever they want and the opprobrium and political/financial fallout from saying whatever they want.

No one (not the least of whom is myself) is arguing that Sterling couldn't certainly stand on a soapbox in the middle of town square and drop the "N" bomb in an hours-on-end tirade. Certainly, the KKK does this without any fear of governmental repercussions.

But, the concept of "free" speech (in that you can say whatever you want without repercussions) is what most of us who are trying to make the distinction are arguing. The concept that you can "freely" say whatever you want and not "pay" for it somehow is what is at stake. The NBA will likely sanction Sterling and perhaps even take his team away from him. Who knows? There will be (and already have been, at least in the public's eye) repercussions. I seriously doubt this man can safely walk out into public alone right now, for example.

So, the concept of Constitutional free speech is a noble ideal. The reality is that, at least in this case, a private entity will supersede that by sanctioning him, on top of all the other castigation in the public he has and will continue to receive.

That's why I originally said speech is far from "free", and people (especially public figures) should and have to measure what they say carefully. The wise ones already know how to play the game. However, what comes out of public figures' mouths may be far different than what is in their hearts. And, if that's the case, are they really free to speak?

~Dr. Imago
 
I think people are confusing Constitutional right to say whatever they want and the opprobrium and political/financial fallout from saying whatever they want.

You were the one who brought up "free speech".

You claim that "there is no such thing as free speech nowadays." But that only would be true if you mean "speech free from public consequences." And as others have noted, there has never been a time when speech has been free of consequences from the public. However, the 1st amendment assures that there is no governmental interference. And, in in that respect, he absolutely has the right to free speech, and no one has suggested otherwise.

Therefore, the only context in which speech is really "free" HAS to be the legal issue. That is the only right to free speech we have. And we still have it.

the concept of Constitutional free speech is a noble ideal. The reality is that, at least in this case, a private entity will supersede that by sanctioning him

A "private entity" CANNOT supersede the constitution, because the "private entity" is NOT BOUND by the constitution!

The constitution is a description of the government. The 1st amendment says that CONGRESS (aka government) shall pass no law restricting the freedom of speech. It does not say that citizens cannot castigate that speech! In fact, if it did, it would be preventing THEIR free speech.
 
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I think people are confusing Constitutional right to say whatever they want and the opprobrium and political/financial fallout from saying whatever they want.
Tell that to Neally. He's the one who inserted "First Amendment" into the discussion. He was called out and corrected. End of story
No one (not the least of whom is myself) is arguing that Sterling couldn't certainly stand on a soapbox in the middle of town square and drop the "N" bomb in an hours-on-end tirade. Certainly, the KKK does this without any fear of governmental repercussions.

But, the concept of "free" speech (in that you can say whatever you want without repercussions) is what most of us who are trying to make the distinction are arguing. The concept that you can "freely" say whatever you want and not "pay" for it somehow is what is at stake. The NBA will likely sanction Sterling and perhaps even take his team away from him. Who knows? There will be (and already have been, at least in the public's eye) repercussions. I seriously doubt this man can safely walk out into public alone right now, for example.

So, the concept of Constitutional free speech is a noble ideal. The reality is that, at least in this case, a private entity will supersede that by sanctioning him, on top of all the other castigation in the public he has and will continue to receive.

That's why I originally said speech is far from "free", and people (especially public figures) should and have to measure what they say carefully. The wise ones already know how to play the game. However, what comes out of public figures' mouths may be far different than what is in their hearts. And, if that's the case, are they really free to speak?
Academic, philosophical esoteric or just mental masturbation, call it what you will but in the real world, they really are free to speak and others are free to deliver consequences. There is no such thing as
"free" speech (in that you can say whatever you want without repercussions)
That's reality.
 
Don is a foolish silly olde man in his dotage and can say whatever he wants except scream FIRE in a crowded public place. I can't imagine that he cares too much at this point in his life of earthly material things. Making it to the long haul is the goal and a little sex now and again. The next news cycle will blow this off the front page while today, it is given the 24/7 news cycle lots of fodder. I do think we all understand our 1st Amendment Rights and surely the role of consequences in all of our lives. None the less, Don was having a private conversation with his sex pot and recorded, which was just stupid, but has a right to tear his own tinfoil in public.
What's Don care about "sanctions" from the NBA? Now not going to his games is a real punishment for him, but no doubt has the multiple large screen TVs in his home.
 
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That has already been shown to be false. Next?

Wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Research, studies and IQ measurement and stands are all over our private library the Internet. It is not a mystery out there.
 
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You have been shown to be wrong. Better to just say oops and move on. Continuing to assert that as a fact doesn't help your position.

Not so and we did put olde Lova to rest. Wishing does not make it so.
 
Don is a foolish silly olde man in his dotage and can say whatever he wants except scream FIRE in a crowded public place. I can't imagine that he cares too much at this point in his life of earthly material things. Making it to the long haul is the goal and a little sex now and again. The next news cycle will blow this off the front page while today, it is given the 24/7 news cycle lots of fodder. I do think we all understand our 1st Amendment Rights and surely the role of consequences in all of our lives. None the less, Don was having a private conversation with his sex pot and recorded, which was just stupid, but has a right to tear his own tinfoil in public.
What's Don care about "sanctions" from the NBA? Now not going to his games is a real punishment for him, but no doubt has the multiple large screen TVs in his home.

Not quite. Nasty, racist, republican white men don't like having their reputations sullied.
 
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Not quite. Nasty, raciest, republican white men don't like having their reputations sullied.

We don't know if olde Don is a Dem or a Pub. We have yet to see a confirmation of his status, but yes he is a rich white man which can only help the election of conservative candidates now that he is presumably not writing checks to the Dems and NAACP. Sure hope he gives lots of money to Rabbi Eckstein to help relocate Ukraine Jews to Israel.
What's an 81 year olde man care about his reputation? Even Spitzer and other grassing Dems didn't care about their images. He may be nasty.
 
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I should have made this clear before, and it's my fault for not doing so: I don't recognize the authority of your "detailed analysis".

Authority? There is no authority. I'm an anonymous poster on the internet. I claim no special authority. My posts speak for themselves. You can either try to understand them and respond appropriately or continue to do whatever it is that you've been doing. It's up to you.

Just because someone takes an inordinate amount of time to make a bare assertion doesn't make it any less a bare assertion. Simply typing "Nuh-uh!" would have been much more succinct and contained exactly as much substantiation.

Right back at ya buddy.

To wit:

See how that post just rambles on and yet doesn't offer anything more than assertions? That's called sophistry, and is not usually recognized as a valid form of argument.

There's nothing wrong with assertions. In fact, they're necessary in any argument. Unsubstantiated, unstipulated ones are the problem (potentially). In any case, this isn't mathematics, where we all start from the same axioms (the equivalent of opinions here). By definition, the opinions I give are my opinions, and the arguments start from there. Take them or leave them, but there was no fallacious reasoning.

You've created a trump card for yourself in asserting that in any instance we simply write off what someone says as "nonsensical" instead of assigning actual meaning and intent to their words. That way, no matter how explicitly something is expressed, you can pretend the person saying it didn't really say it.

Except of course when it come to Joe Biden. Then we must interpret his words in the most damning light possible, no matter how vague his actual words are.

Well, the Trent Lott case is the only one you know about. So your assertion that I've created a trump card for myself, to be used in any instance, is unsubstantiated.

As for Joe Biden, the most damning interpretation is that he actually thought the bombing was a good thing in the end because it allowed the victims to show how strong they were and to set an example for the nation. I think rather he was so overwhelmed by admiration for the survivors that he just ended up saying something nonsensical. His actual words, however, were neither vague nor ambiguous. I chalk it up to Joe Biden being Joe Biden. I didn't call for his resignation or anything. Of course, I still don't think he's competent enough to run a car wash, let alone be a heartbeat away from the Presidency, but I've thought that for at least 6 years.
 
I mentioned earlier that Joe Biden told the Boston marathon bombing survivors that "it was worth it!" Not once, but twice, and then he said he really meant it. His supporters tried to defend him by arguing that he meant that "it was worth it" to take time out of his busy schedule to attend the memorial and hear the survivors speak. I think that's ridiculous...


Regarding the Trent Lott and Joe Biden gaffes:

Often people speaking publicly will say things clumsily -- and often these things get pounced upon by their political opponents, who cast the statement in the worst possible light, regardless of what the person clearly intended to say.

One way to tell whether someone is being fairly criticized for what they said or whether what they said is being deliberately misinterpreted in order to score political points is to look at the methods used by the critics. If the critics take one snippet of the speech, provide little to no context (or misleadingly spin the context) then it's probably political gamesmanship rather than legitimate criticism. If, on the other hand, the critics in addition to providing the sound-bite also provide an accurate quote of the longer passage from which the soundbite came, give a fair summary of the context in which the soundbite was made, and delight in providing links to primary sources so that others can check the matter out for themselves, then the criticism is likely legitimate.

Let's look at both the Trent Lott gaffe and the Joe Biden gaffe.

In the case of Trent Lott praising Strom Thurmond, here's the controversial passage, from a Media Matters for America item concerning it:

“I want to say this about my state [Mississippi]. When Strom Thurmond ran for president, we voted for him. We're proud of it. And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years, either.”


Now this is a bit poorly worded, such as Lott's use of the word "we". Since Lott was only 7 years old at the time, it's pretty likely he didn't actually vote for Thurmond in that election. A sensible non-contortionist reading of the passage is he's saying his friends and family voted for Thurmond in that election, they felt good to be doing so then, and Lott still feels good today about their choice in that election.

The excerpt which is most often quoted is "if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn’t have had all these problems over the years, either". That's also poorly worded -- it's vague as to exactly what problems Lott is referring to.

One can engage in contortions (as sunmaster appears to me to be doing) to come up with policies Thurmond might have had in mind.

But the simplest and most sensible interpretation is that Lott is referring to the platform Thurmond ran on. That was foolish on Lott's part; he may have thought he was speaking vaguely enough he couldn't be nailed for it, or he may simply not have been thinking. But he had just said, with no hint of regret, that his family voted for Thurmond in 1948, and that he still felt that was a good choice.

Thurmond's platform in 1948 -- pretty much the entire reason for him running -- was support of segregation. I don't see any sensible way to interpret Lott's comment, without indulging in a lot of contortion and invention, that doesn't take it to be a statement of support for Thurmond's segregationist views.

The Media Matters article has the earmarks of fair criticism. It present the full passage rather than just the snippet. It presents the context fairly. It provides checkable primary sources so that people can look up for themselves the things Media Matters is claiming. And it provides additional information to support their interpretation:

On December 11, 2002, The Washington Post noted that Lott made a similar remark in 1980: "Twenty-two years ago, Trent Lott, then a House member from Mississippi, told a home state political gathering that if the country had elected segregationist candidate Strom Thurmond to the presidency '30 years ago, we wouldn't be in the mess we are today.' The phrasing is very similar to incoming Senate Majority Leader Lott's controversial remarks at a 100th birthday party for Thurmond last week."


In contrast we have the Joe Biden gaffe of telling Boston Marathon bombing survivors "It was worth it!" Here's the controversial passage:

“Let me say to those quote ‘survivors’ [who spoke previously]. My God you have survived and you have soared. It was worth it, I mean it sincerely, just to hear you speak. You are truly, truly inspiring. I have never heard anything so beautiful.”


Like Lott's passage, this is poorly worded; the word "it" is vague and has no clear antecedent.

But if we take out the distracting "I mean it sincerely", the sentence becomes a little clearer: "It was worth it just to hear you speak". That's still unclear, primarily because of the word just; but take out just and what remains is the kind of sentiment one would would expect a speaker to say on this type of occasion.

"It was worth it to hear you speak. You are truly, truly inspiring. I have never heard anything so beautiful.". Read like that the reasonable interpretation of what's being said is that the speaker is glad to have taken the time to attend the ceremony because he was moved and touched by the words of the survivors.

Rush Limbaugh appears to be one of the primary propagators of this one, although his echo-chamber certainly helped spread it.

The snippet Limbaugh and the echoers kept repeating is "It was worth it!" And Limbaugh comes up with a creative interpretation of what that meant:

Rush Limbaugh said:
n his mind, he was addressing the toughness. He was complimenting the toughness of the people. "It was worth it to show that we can handle these people. It was worth it to show that we at the Regime could help you through this. It was worth it to demonstrate that these people who committed this tragedy (don't say "terrorism") can't get away with it. It was worth it so that we could show you how qualified, competent, and good we are.



But there's nothing in Biden's actual words to indicate the it refers to the bombing. That would be an extraordinary thing to say.

Given the two possible interpretations ('Coming here was worth it just to hear you speak today' v. 'You getting injured and others getting killed was worth it just so I could hear you speak today') the sensible choice is to assume he meant the former, unless strong evidence is provided that he meant the former. I see none -- only clever rhetoric by partisans such as Limbaugh -- and I am baffled as to why you would choose to believe the unlikely interpretation over the likely one.
 
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Not so and we did put olde [N]ova to rest. Wishing does not make it so.


Indeed. To review:

1. Based on an inaccurate and dishonest item at the Conservative Treehouse, you posted: "... Sterling is a white racist Democrat fundraiser and supporte[r] ..."

Apart from the part Sterling being white and racist, this turned out to be false. Sterling is neither a Democratic Party fundraiser nor an active supporter of the Democratic Party.

2. Based on an inaccurate and dishonest item at the Conservative Treehouse, you posted: "... Sterling is a rich Democratic fundraise[r], donor and supporter scheduled to get a life time achievement award from the NAACP ..."

Apart from the part about Sterling being rich and being scheduled at that time to receive an award from the LA branch of the NAACP, this turned out to be false: Sterling is not a Democratic Party fundraiser, not a Democratic Party supporter, and not a Democrat.

(Regarding the claim that Sterling is a Democratic donor: Sterling has in the past given donations to Bill Bradley, Patrick Leahy, and Gray Davis -- most of these dating back more than 20 years, but with one to Gray Davis 12 years ago. So one could truthfully say: More than a decade ago Sterling made a handful of donations to Democrats, but has not contributed anything to them since. But what you wrote implied he is a current Democratic donor. That's false.)

3. Based on an inaccurate and dishonest item at the Conservative Treehouse, you posted: "... Sterling is a rich white Dem racist."

Apart from Sterling being rich, white and racist, this turned out to be false; Sterling is a registered Republican, and has been for more than 15 years.

I didn't read the post yet in which you acknowledged these errors on your part, but am glad you agree this is settled. I hope you will be more careful in the future about trusting sources such as The Conservative Treehouse and in echoing their propaganda without first verifying the accuracy of the claims for yourself.
 
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<snip>

One can engage in contortions (as sunmaster appears to me to be doing) to come up with policies Thurmond might have had in mind.

I wrote nothing of the sort. I was trying to figure out what was going though Trent Lott's mind. I'll note in your long disquisition about providing proper context, that you fail to provide the context that Lott was praising Thurmond on the occasion of the latter's 100th birthday celebration.


But the simplest and most sensible interpretation is that Lott is referring to the platform Thurmond ran on. That was foolish on Lott's part; he may have thought he was speaking vaguely enough he couldn't be nailed for it, or he may simply not have been thinking. But he had just said, with no hint of regret, that his family voted for Thurmond in 1948, and that he still felt that was a good choice.

Thurmond's platform in 1948 -- pretty much the entire reason for him running -- was support of segregation. I don't see any sensible way to interpret Lott's comment, without indulging in a lot of contortion and invention, that doesn't take it to be a statement of support for Thurmond's segregationist views.

I believe he was referring (poorly) to the man and not his platform or ideology at the time. A man, by the way, who (as Ravdin pointed out) volunteered to be a paratrooper while in his forties and was highly decorated during the Battle of Normandy.


The Media Matters article has the earmarks of fair criticism. It present the full passage rather than just the snippet. It presents the context fairly. It provides checkable primary sources so that people can look up for themselves the things Media Matters is claiming. And it provides additional information to support their interpretation:

The problems in 1980 were actually quite similar to the problems in 2002 (e.g. bad economy, threats of terrorism, dramatic loss of confidence). Not very much that was race related, not very much that was relevant to the end of Jim Crow or to the civil rights movement in general. I don't know the details about why Lott was praising Thurmond in 1980, but it does not surprise me that he reverted back to previous words of praise while speaking extemporaneously 22 years later.


<snip>

But if we take out the distracting "I mean it sincerely", the sentence becomes a little clearer: "It was worth it just to hear you speak". That's still unclear, primarily because of the word just; but take out just and what remains is the kind of sentiment one would would expect a speaker to say on this type of occasion.

"It was worth it to hear you speak. You are truly, truly inspiring. I have never heard anything so beautiful.". Read like that the reasonable interpretation of what's being said is that the speaker is glad to have taken the time to attend the ceremony because he was moved and touched by the words of the survivors.

Well, I think it's dishonest to work with the transcript in this way when there is an easily available link to the audio and video here. The truly relevant portion begins at 0:58, although the weird "quote survivors" thing comes a few seconds before. There are pregnant pauses in there which really remove any ambiguity.

<snip>

-- and I am baffled as to why you would choose to believe the unlikely interpretation over the likely one.

I gave my interpretation, which is neither one of the two choices you present. I consider both your "unlikely" and your "likely" interpretations to be unlikely.
 
Seems like Sterling is a racist, and should be heavily sanctioned by the NBA. More importantly I'm glad CNN has switched from the Flight 370 obsession to this one. That was getting kind of boring. Looking forward to new talking heads.
 

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