UKIP a one trick Pony

Giz said:
You've made me curious. I'd read it as simply "The British public have never given their consent to be part of an EU superstate (merely a trade zone). The people want their say".

How are you reading it?
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Guessing along the lines of "You could say that about the Scottish people in the UK".

The difference being they are getting their referendum. On the UK, anyway. No idea if anybody plans to ask them about EU membership or not.
 
Seismosaurus said:
Guessing along the lines of "You could say that about the Scottish people in the UK".

The difference being they are getting their referendum. On the UK, anyway. No idea if anybody plans to ask them about EU membership or not.
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Yeah, I guess that implies that Rolfe is fully in support of the UK having a referendum on the EU.
 
AFAIK she is. Her concern is that an overwhelming vote from the south will take Scotland out, notwithstanding generally greater support on this side of the border. But I'm sure she'll behappy to confirm that (or otherwise) for herself.
 
I was just intrigued, in the way you surmise, by that post coming from someone who has been posting very negatively on the thread on the Scottish referendum.

Indeed we are getting our referendum, so the parallel isn't exact. Much of the rest of it is though. We were dragged kicking and screaming into a political union the public never gave their consent to. There is a strong body of opinion that recognises this relationship is unequal, one-sided, and has run its course.

I just find it paradoxical that the same thing is said about the EU by someone who has nothing but contempt for Scotland's constitutional debate.

I hope we can get out of this damaging incorporating union so that we can make our own arrangements with the EU (that is, negotiate continuing membership on confederal terms) in time to avoid being dragged out by the sheer numbers of Daily Mail addled English votes.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
I was just intrigued, in the way you surmise, by that post coming from someone who has been posting very negatively on the thread on the Scottish referendum.
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Okay.

Indeed we are getting our referendum, so the parallel isn't exact. Much of the rest of it is though. We were dragged kicking and screaming into a political union the public never gave their consent to. There is a strong body of opinion that recognises this relationship is unequal, one-sided, and has run its course.

I just find it paradoxical that the same thing is said about the EU by someone who has nothing but contempt for Scotland's constitutional debate.
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I don't think the situation is particularly parallel, for various reasons...

Scotland has been part of the UK for some centuries. Britain joined the EU within living memory.

The UK has always been a political union. Scotland didn't join thinking it was something else and then have it morph over time.

Since Scotland became part of the UK, the country has evolved from an authoritarian government to a much more egalitarian and democratic one. Scotland has had a voice in that democratization, much as England and Wales has. Rather more of a voice than it should have given it's population, actually. And over recent decades it's also gained more and more local control, as has Wales (though oddly, not England). The EU shows no signs of doing anything like that.

So it really doesn't seem a particularly comparable situation to me, except in the most superficial of ways.

As for my opinion of the Scottish referendum, I've certainly said that I don't think the Scots should vote for independence. And I've certainly said that if they do, they really can't complain if they are treated as a foreign country - rather than whining with imagined victimhood when it's suggested that the rest of the world might not comport itself for their convenience. But I don't believe I've ever opined that there shouldn't be a referendum.

Nor, incidentally, have I suggested that the UK should leave the EU in this thread. Merely that they should have the chance to vote on it, just as the Scots are voting on the UK.

I hope we can get out of this damaging incorporating union so that we can make our own arrangements with the EU (that is, negotiate continuing membership on confederal terms) in time to avoid being dragged out by the sheer numbers of Daily Mail addled English votes.
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Yes, I'm sure you do. Lots of luck with that.
 
And yet just today, the Herald reports howls of protest from Westminster politicians when Salmond points out that if Scotland is out the EU, then Spanish fishing interests are out of Scotland. Hmmmmm.
 
Yeah, that was an interesting spin. In thought-experiment-land, if Scotland were to be expelled from the EU, then EU fishing boats would no longer have access to Scottish waters. It's pure common sense. They would also no longer have access to Norwegian waters, because Norway is not in the EU and current EU access to Norwegian waters depends on an agreement which given Norwegian boats access to Scottish waters.

Salmond points this out, and suddenly he's "threatening" and "bullying". No, he's really not. If you throw me out of the car-pooling club, you can't expect to come round and make use of my car any time you feel like it any more.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
Salmond points this out, and suddenly he's "threatening" and "bullying". No, he's really not. If you throw me out of the car-pooling club, you can't expect to come round and make use of my car any time you feel like it any more.
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It's weird when people call not getting their own way on everything threatening and bullying, isn't it?
 
Seismosaurus said:
Okay.


I don't think the situation is particularly parallel, for various reasons...

Scotland has been part of the UK for some centuries. Britain joined the EU within living memory.

The UK has always been a political union. Scotland didn't join thinking it was something else and then have it morph over time.

Since Scotland became part of the UK, the country has evolved from an authoritarian government to a much more egalitarian and democratic one. Scotland has had a voice in that democratization, much as England and Wales has. Rather more of a voice than it should have given it's population, actually. And over recent decades it's also gained more and more local control, as has Wales (though oddly, not England). The EU shows no signs of doing anything like that.

So it really doesn't seem a particularly comparable situation to me, except in the most superficial of ways.

As for my opinion of the Scottish referendum, I've certainly said that I don't think the Scots should vote for independence. And I've certainly said that if they do, they really can't complain if they are treated as a foreign country - rather than whining with imagined victimhood when it's suggested that the rest of the world might not comport itself for their convenience. But I don't believe I've ever opined that there shouldn't be a referendum.

Nor, incidentally, have I suggested that the UK should leave the EU in this thread. Merely that they should have the chance to vote on it, just as the Scots are voting on the UK.


Yes, I'm sure you do. Lots of luck with that.
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I have highlighted your error. Scotland did not join the union. The nobles decided the union would happen regardless of the peoples views. UK was asked on Common market. It said yes. It has since changed.

I have no issue with a referendum on the EU being brought to the table by the Tories. But only if it does not include Scotland. We should make our own choice on it should our government decide they want to give us it.
 
funk de fino said:
I have highlighted your error. Scotland did not join the union. The nobles decided the union would happen regardless of the peoples views.
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Regardless of who made the decision or how it was implemented, the result was that Scotland joined the union. Sorry, but there is no error in what I wrote.

I have no issue with a referendum on the EU being brought to the table by the Tories. But only if it does not include Scotland. We should make our own choice on it should our government decide they want to give us it.
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If Scotland remains part of the UK, then no. It would be as stupid as saying that Yorkshire should have it's own vote on the EU separate from the rest of England.

Of course if Scotland does go independent then they can have their own votes on anything they like.
 
Seismosaurus said:
It's weird when people call not getting their own way on everything threatening and bullying, isn't it?
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It's weird, this sense of entitlement that says, I can throw you out of the club, but I still get dibs on all your property.

You can't seriously imagine that the EU could expel Scotland, and yet EU fishing boats would still have the right to fish in Scottish waters? It's ludicrous.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
It's weird, this sense of entitlement that says, I can throw you out of the club, but I still get dibs on all your property.
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It's weird when people invent nonsensical reasons to imagine themselves victims, too. But we knew that already.

You can't seriously imagine that the EU could expel Scotland, and yet EU fishing boats would still have the right to fish in Scottish waters? It's ludicrous.
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Good job I haven't suggested any such thing, then. Bit more projection on your part.
 
Dragging this back on topic to UKIP, I have today received two election communications via the postman: one from UKIP and one from the BNP.

The BNP communication is unashamedly racist; the policies listed are leave the EU, ban the burqa, stop immigration (especially 'Muslim' immigration) and keep British jobs for British workers. Their sub-head is 'Taking Our Country Back'.

The UKIP leaflet is a bit cagier about their policies other than leave the EU (they list the advantages they see in doing this*) and stop immigration. The sub-head is 'Help Us to Help You Get Your Country Back'.

Aside from the fact that the BNP has a bulldog on their leaflet and UKIP has a smiling Nigel Farage, there is really no difference in content.

I have discovered that UKIP has a freepost address, so if anyone were to deface their leaflet and then put it in an envelope addressed to UKIP FREEPOST RLSU-HZBG-UBBG, Lexdrum House, Heathfield, Devon TQ12 6UT then it will cost UKIP money which they might otherwise spend on more advertising.

*They claim:
We're likely to have more jobs outside the EU
Food and fuel will cheaper outside the EU
We'll save enough to mend our economy
We can tell the ECHR where to go
 
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Seismosaurus said:
Regardless of who made the decision or how it was implemented, the result was that Scotland joined the union. Sorry, but there is no error in what I wrote.
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Did they think that thereafter the Westminster parliament would treat the treaty as a mere Act, to be amended at will by the majority, if need be in the face of Scottish opposition? We have an authoritative statement to this effect from Dicey, books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=0191508969
Should the Dentists' Act, 1878, unfortunately contravene the terms of the Act of Union, the Act of Union would be pro tanto repealed, ...
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See also: http://www.scottishconstitutionalfu...e-Union-in-British-Constitutional-Theory.aspx
To all intents and purposes the dominant Anglo-British tradition of constitutional interpretation – whose most influential exponent was A.V. Dicey - treats the British constitution as a mere continuation of the pre-1707 English constitution. According to Dicey the Act of Union with Scotland enjoyed no greater status in British constitutional law than the humble Dentists Act 1878
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I'm pretty sure the Scots magnates who negotiated the union didn't foresee this interpretation of its constitutional status.
 
I was half-listening to BBC Radio 5 just before noon and I believe they were interviewing a UKIP spokesperson on the subject of immigration policy. In the event that they got to set immigration policy after the next general election, they would impose a working visa quota on all nationalities (presumably they would have already left the EU) and stop all permanent immigration. Under this policy, presumably Farage's own wife would not have been granted indefinite right to remain.

With regard to the economy, I'm pretty sure they don't have a Scooby (Scooby Doo, clue) and their spending plans had holes in them running to tens of billions of pounds.
 
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