Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

[Black Hole Box]

How much did it cost to watch someone pretend to be inhabited by a spirit?

 

[anglolawyer]

The spirit world do not want or intend to give absolute proof of their existence to the people of this world. Because that would defeat the very object of incarnation. Which is to choose our own path through the world and by doing so invoke karma that is designed to teach us to spiritually evolve. If we had absolute proof of the existence of the spirit world we might as well stay there and not incarnate at all. But in this world we are tried and tested by experience that leads us gradually up the path of evolution over many incarnations.

I am unlikely to change my mind about all this as finding it out was the work of years, and I have had much subjective evidence that we do survive death, in the form of many evidential messages from the spirit world given to me by mediums. But telling you of my experiences is just anecdotal, and although it gives me belief it proves nothing to you. You would have to spend years in a spiritualist church to get such evidence, and even then you might not. The spirit world do not give away their secrets to the idly curious, only to those that they think will use the knowledge in a positive way.

What?

'If we had absolute proof of the existence of the spirit world we might as well stay there and not incarnate at all.'

If we are there, having the choice to not incarnate, why would we need proof. We would be there and that would be the proof. Why can't we spiritually evolve in the spirit world? Also, now you've told me the spirit world exists, what's to stop me believing you? If I believe you I'm in the same position as someone who demanded and received proof. Now I can't evolve because knowing prevents me evolving. In fact since you have this knowledge you can't evolve either.

What I highlighted just seems like a jumble of enigmatic sentences that don't mean anything.

 

[Scorpion]

What?

'If we had absolute proof of the existence of the spirit world we might as well stay there and not incarnate at all.'

If we are there, having the choice to not incarnate, why would we need proof. We would be there and that would be the proof. Why can't we spiritually evolve in the spirit world? Also, now you've told me the spirit world exists, what's to stop me believing you? If I believe you I'm in the same position as someone who demanded and received proof. Now I can't evolve because knowing prevents me evolving. In fact since you have this knowledge you can't evolve either.

What I highlighted just seems like a jumble of enigmatic sentences that don't mean anything.

We cannot spiritually evolve in the spirit world as much as we can in a physical body. For one thing the spirit body has no sexuality, and we also do not feel emotions like we do in the flesh. Also there are no great challenges or pressures put upon us as immortal spirits.
We evolve through the struggles of life, and eventually, after countless incarnations we achieve a state of grace which makes further incarnations pointless. At that time we remember all our past lives in perfect clarity, and then we go on to evolve further as one of the immortals.
Some spirit teachers have said we eventually loose our individuality and merge back into the God head.

 

[Scorpion]

How much did it cost to watch someone pretend to be inhabited by a spirit?

There is very little money to be made in spiritualism, and most mediums give their time freely to churches up and down the country every week. They only get paid travelling expenses, and the rest of the money put in the collection plate goes to the upkeep of the church. Usually spiritualist churches are struggling to keep the doors open because they do not get very much on the collection plate.
The spiritualist association does make a small charge for the attendance of lectures, but their overheads are high, and they make very little money.
I know there are fakes out there that charge for private sittings but the core of the mediums in the spiritualist movement do their work for the love of it.

 

[Pixel42]

I have had much subjective evidence that we do survive death, in the form of many evidential messages from the spirit world given to me by mediums. But telling you of my experiences is just anecdotal, and although it gives me belief it proves nothing to you.

How did you eliminate cold reading, warm reading, hot reading, confirmation bias, the Forer Effect, intelligent guesswork, lucky guesswork and sheer coincidence - all the reasons why anecdotal evidence is such a very very unreliable basis on which to base conclusions about the nature of reality? Unless you did so, it proves nothing to you either (at least it shouldn't).

 

[Scorpion]

How did you eliminate cold reading, warm reading, hot reading, confirmation bias, the Forer Effect, intelligent guesswork, lucky guesswork and sheer coincidence - all the reasons why anecdotal evidence is such a very very unreliable basis on which to base conclusions about the nature of reality? Unless you did so, it proves nothing to you either (at least it shouldn't).

In the early days of attending spiritualist church services I learned that if a medium comes to you with a message you just answer yes or no to any questions. I also adopted a toneless voice, so as not to give cold readers any clues. Never the less I was once told I had a brother that died in the war as a baby, and I was even told his name. The medium was from out of town and I had never seen her before. My mother was not a spiritualist and she had never been to the church. Nor had she ever told me about the baby.
Everything the medium said to me I refuted, and at the end she looked crest fallen, and she said well ask your mother about it. So I went home and my mother was at the kitchen sink, like all good mothers, I asked her if she had a baby that died in the war, and she looked up with a shocked look on her face and said "Yes". So I told her I had just had a message from him and he had grown up in the spirit world, and he wanted to be remembered to her.
My mother shrugged her shoulders and went back to the washing up. We did not speak about it again for years.

 

[anglolawyer]

We cannot spiritually evolve in the spirit world as much as we can in a physical body. For one thing the spirit body has no sexuality, and we also do not feel emotions like we do in the flesh. Also there are no great challenges or pressures put upon us as immortal spirits.
We evolve through the struggles of life, and eventually, after countless incarnations we achieve a state of grace which makes further incarnations pointless. At that time we remember all our past lives in perfect clarity, and then we go on to evolve further as one of the immortals.
Some spirit teachers have said we eventually loose our individuality and merge back into the God head.

That sounds good. I would like to evolve into an immortal. So much that rock solid proof of the spirit world would not stop me trying. Can I have the proof if I promise not to tell anyone else?

Alternatively, can I waive the possibility of spiritual evolution in return for the knowledge that would prevent me attaining immortality?

 

[Pixel42]

How did you eliminate warm reading, hot reading, confirmation bias, the Forer Effect, intelligent guesswork, lucky guesswork and sheer coincidence as the explanation of this anecdote?

 

[Scorpion]

That sounds good. I would like to evolve into an immortal. So much that rock solid proof of the spirit world would not stop me trying. Can I have the proof if I promise not to tell anyone else?

Alternatively, can I waive the possibility of spiritual evolution in return for the knowledge that would prevent me attaining immortality?

The theory is that we start out as immortal spirits that are breathed out of God in huge batches, or spiritual families.These untried and untested spirits lack self knowlege and personal experience so the begin the long cycle of countless incarnations which involves actions and reactions, or karma.
We cannot get off this merry go round even if we want to and there is no death of the spirit. We are immortal either in or between incarnations, and we have no choice but to complete our journey.

 

[Scorpion]

How did you eliminate warm reading, hot reading, confirmation bias, the Forer Effect, intelligent guesswork, lucky guesswork and sheer coincidence as the explanation of this anecdote?

That's too clever for me, I just had many evidential messages over a period of years, that gradually convinced me that the most likely explanation for the accuracy of the messages I was getting was that mediums were doing what they said they were doing, and talking to the spirits of the departed.

I went to many different churches, up and down the length of England and had messages from many different mediums who I had never seen before, so they did not know my details. But I still got evidential messages from both my grandparents. Who told the medium things the medium could not have known.

I was not convinced by one message, but by hundreds over years.

In any case I could feel psychic energy myself.

 

[anglolawyer]

The theory is that we start out as immortal spirits that are breathed out of God in huge batches, or spiritual families.These untried and untested spirits lack self knowlege and personal experience so the begin the long cycle of countless incarnations which involves actions and reactions, or karma.
We cannot get off this merry go round even if we want to and there is no death of the spirit. We are immortal either in or between incarnations, and we have no choice but to complete our journey.

OK but in that case there doesn't need to be any rule that stops us knowing about the afterlife, or spirit world, as you said before.

 

[Pixel42]

That's too clever for me, I just had many evidential messages over a period of years, that gradually convinced me that the most likely explanation for the accuracy of the messages I was getting was that mediums were doing what they said they were doing, and talking to the spirits of the departed.

Unfortunately we all have cognitive biases which can cause us to inadvertently fool ourselves into believing things which aren't true. That's why the scientific method was invented - to carefully and methodically eliminate the effect of such biases. When this is done with readings like the ones you describe (mediums, psychics, astrology, tarot cards etc) these cognitive biases invariably turn out to be the explanation of the perceived accuracy. They are therefore the most likely cause of your subjective experiences too.

 

[Slowvehicle]

My source is that I attended many trance lectures by several mediums at the spiritualist association in London for several years during the 1970's.

Two of the mediums I listened to at the spiritualist association were Ivy Northage and Ursula Roberts. I also went to White Eagle lodge and heard Grace Cook give trance lectures. I also attended an art class by Gladys Mayer, a student of Rudolph Steiner.

I believe all these people are now dead, but information about them all can be found on the Internet together with some of their teachings.

PS. Trance lectures are where a medium is purportedly taken in trance by a discarnate spirit who then speaks through the mediums mouth.

Ah. Got it.

"Seances".

 

[Slowvehicle]

The spirit world do not want or intend to give absolute proof of their existence to the people of this world.

...and yet, somehow, you found it out...

Because that would defeat the very object of incarnation. Which is to choose our own path through the world and by doing so invoke karma that is designed to teach us to spiritually evolve. If we had absolute proof of the existence of the spirit world we might as well stay there and not incarnate at all. But in this world we are tried and tested by experience that leads us gradually up the path of evolution over many incarnations.

There are many words in this you are not using in the way that people who understand words use them.

I am unlikely to change my mind about all this as finding it out was the work of years, and I have had much subjective evidence that we do survive death, in the form of many evidential messages from the spirit world given to me by mediums.

Then why are you here?

But telling you of my experiences is just anecdotal, and although it gives me belief it proves nothing to you. You would have to spend years in a spiritualist church to get such evidence, and even then you might not. The spirit world do not give away their secrets to the idly curious, only to those that they think will use the knowledge in a positive way.

 

[thenigotoffthebus]

You would have to spend years in a spiritualist church to get such evidence, and even then you might not.

But actually that's not really necessary when positive results from simple tests will be evidence enough. For example lets say a medium you believe in does written readings for 10 believers like yourself. The readings would consist of things that have convinced you in the past, things about yourself and those you love that the medium couldn't possibly know unless they had a real ability. If you read all 10 readings afterwards could you pick yours from the 10? Could just 5 of your 9 friends do likewise? Because do that a few times with some simple controls in place and that's all it would take to convince a lot of people. Is that really so much to ask?

The spirit world do not give away their secrets to the idly curious, only to those that they think will use the knowledge in a positive way.

I dont expect any secrets to be given away. I'm just looking for a simple, credible demonstration that the abilities are real. It would then be far from idle curiosity, in fact I think it would change the world profoundly.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I'm just looking for a simple, credible demonstration that the abilities are real. It would then be far from idle curiosity, in fact I think it would change the world profoundly.

Yes.

And earn someone a million dollars.

But Scorpion's posts have been full of special pleading, so I'll go out on a limb and predict more of the same.

Let's see if I'm prescient!

 

[tsig]

The spirit world do not want or intend to give absolute proof of their existence to the people of this world. Because that would defeat the very object of incarnation. Which is to choose our own path through the world and by doing so invoke karma that is designed to teach us to spiritually evolve. If we had absolute proof of the existence of the spirit world we might as well stay there and not incarnate at all. But in this world we are tried and tested by experience that leads us gradually up the path of evolution over many incarnations.

I am unlikely to change my mind about all this as finding it out was the work of years, and I have had much subjective evidence that we do survive death, in the form of many evidential messages from the spirit world given to me by mediums. But telling you of my experiences is just anecdotal, and although it gives me belief it proves nothing to you. You would have to spend years in a spiritualist church to get such evidence, and even then you might not. The spirit world do not give away their secrets to the idly curious, only to those that they think will use the knowledge in a positive way.

Then your trance readers were lying to you about their knowledge of the spirit world.


IOW only true believers need apply.

 

[George]

My conclusions were that some mediums are genuine, and they do not just do cold reading, as James Randi says.

Then clearly some mediums are not genuine. If I were to take an interest in spiritualism how would I ascertain which mediums/spirit guides are genuine and which are fraudulent? With all your experience you must encounter this issue on a regular basis. So how do you handle it?

They do tell you facts and names, and details that it would be difficult for them to know unless they are doing what they say they are doing. Which is talking to the spirits of the departed.

Again, how can you be sure of this?

I conclude that most people here have little or no experience of psychics, and they write them off because of a preconception that they must all be fakes.

You're right. But for the wrong reasons. Until you can show us how to differentiate genuine from fraudulent; we have nothing to discuss.

Or it would entirely change the scientific paradigm.

What paradigm? Science has nothing to say on the subject of the paranormal.

 

[tsig]

We cannot spiritually evolve in the spirit world as much as we can in a physical body. For one thing the spirit body has no sexuality, and we also do not feel emotions like we do in the flesh. Also there are no great challenges or pressures put upon us as immortal spirits.
We evolve through the struggles of life, and eventually, after countless incarnations we achieve a state of grace which makes further incarnations pointless. At that time we remember all our past lives in perfect clarity, and then we go on to evolve further as one of the immortals.
Some spirit teachers have said we eventually loose our individuality and merge back into the God head.

Then what was the point of the whole thing?

 

[tsig]

That's too clever for me, I just had many evidential messages over a period of years, that gradually convinced me that the most likely explanation for the accuracy of the messages I was getting was that mediums were doing what they said they were doing, and talking to the spirits of the departed.

I went to many different churches, up and down the length of England and had messages from many different mediums who I had never seen before, so they did not know my details. But I still got evidential messages from both my grandparents. Who told the medium things the medium could not have known.

I was not convinced by one message, but by hundreds over years.

In any case I could feel psychic energy myself.

They might have never seen you but I bet they saw each other.

Did any of the messages ever give you any info worth having like "the lotto numbers for tomorrow are xxxxxxxxx?"