[Merged] General Criticism of Islam/Islamophobia Topics

[Humes fork]

From a Swedish forum, translated by me:

Hi.

I have been a member here at Flashback for a while in the philosophy section, but I haven't told anything about myself. I am a former Muslim, been active for a few years and having lived in Egypt as well as having studied with a sheikh in northern Yemen (Damaj). I was a Salafi and believed very strongly in Islam, spent my days reading books by among others Ibn Taymiyyah etc om order to hit away doubts from seculars.

As the years passed I started to realize that something was wrong with Islam, I had to immunize my faith against criticism and made lots of ad-hoc hypotheses to get away the scientific theories that undermines Islam in its foundation. Also, problems within Islamic theology made me understand that the religion could not be true. Luckily I returned to Sweden and lived with my fasmily far away from the other practicing Salafi Muslims. I realized that the Muslims made a number of errors in their philosophical discussions. The Quran which is full of obvious contradictions was said to have abrogated parts, clearer verses "took over" other more unclear parts. Also the essence of God I realized was a contradictory metaphysical claim that didn't have any sort of foundation neither from reason or from empirical data.

After I left Islam the mosque in Skärholmen (the Moroccan mosque) contacted a relatively well-known sheikh by the name Ar-Luhaydaan (student of Ibn Baz) who issued a Fatwa that I would be executed if I was in Saudi Arabia. Something I didn't learn about until long after it had happened. I want to share this and I also want to share how unhappy this religion made me feel, in the end of my period as religious I had decided to join Jihad in order to not have to live. I want to thank you who write against Islam on this forum, you do the only moral thing and you contribute to making the future for our children safer and more rational. I wish that there one day will be a world where we all live for this life only and that superstition is a historical phenomena that will never repeat itself.

I am only 19 years old and wanted to share this in order to make those who doubt how barbaric Islam is to stop doubt, when the death sentence was declared I was only 18.

Sincerely/ and enlightened atheist.

Some notes by me:

- Skärholmen is a suburb of Stockholm.
- "Ar-Luhaydaan" was written as "Ar-Ruhaydaan" in the original post, but a later forum post made clear "Ar-Ruhaydaan" was a miss-spelling, and that "Ar-Luhaydaan" is the correct name.

Does this testimony describe a tolerant behavior? I don't think so. Nonetheless I'm convinced that some defense or apology for the behavior will made at this forum, probably at the first page of this thread, or at most within a few pages. Experience suggests to me that there simply aren't any level low enough that some member on this forum will not be willing to sink to.

 

[MontagK505]

From a Swedish forum, translated by me:


Does this testimony describe a tolerant behavior? I don't think so. Nonetheless I'm convinced that some defense or apology for the behavior will made at this forum, probably at the first page of this thread, or at most within a few pages. Experience suggests to me that there simply aren't any level low enough that some member on this forum will not be willing to sink to.

I'm not one of those apologists.
Salman Rushdie had a death price placed on his head by Ayatollah Khomeini, the religious leader of a major Islamic state. Now, we're not talking about somebody hiding in a hole in the mountains of Afghanistan, but the Ayatollah of Iran. How many leaders of major Islamic countries have openly denounced this?

You can place a plastic Jesus in a jar of urine and you don't have to worry too much about Jesuit hit-men. You can claim Buddha was full of poop and you don't have to worry about assassins in orange robes. But say something bad about Islam? You better watch your back. Islamic ideology encourages murdering people who openly criticize it.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

From a Swedish forum, translated by me:





Does this testimony describe a tolerant behavior? I don't think so. Nonetheless I'm convinced that some defense or apology for the behavior will made at this forum, probably at the first page of this thread, or at most within a few pages. Experience suggests to me that there simply aren't any level low enough that some member on this forum will not be willing to sink to.

Would it be possible for you to consolidate all of these drive-by posts into one "Haters hatin'" thread? They're kind of spammy as-is, and as they amount to the same argument each time, don't really deserve their own topics.

 

[Craig B]

Does this testimony describe a tolerant behavior? I don't think so. Nonetheless I'm convinced that some defense or apology for the behavior will made at this forum, probably at the first page of this thread, or at most within a few pages. Experience suggests to me that there simply aren't any level low enough that some member on this forum will not be willing to sink to.

Attacking people for vile low behaviour before you've even had a single response is so absurd as to be laughable. It's a new trick of yours, but more risible than deplorable.

For what it's worth, the testimony does not describe a tolerant behaviour, in my opinion.

 

[catsmate]

Would it be possible for you to consolidate all of these drive-by posts into one "Haters hatin'" thread? They're kind of spammy as-is, and as they amount to the same argument each time, don't really deserve their own topics.

This would be useful, especially given the OP's seagull habits.

Attacking people for vile low behaviour before you've even had a single response is so absurd as to be laughable. It's a new trick of yours, but more risible than deplorable.

For what it's worth, the testimony does not describe a tolerant behaviour, in my opinion.

It would also be interesting to see you evidence the quoted story is, in fact, true.

 

[tsig]

From a Swedish forum, translated by me:





Does this testimony describe a tolerant behavior? I don't think so. Nonetheless I'm convinced that some defense or apology for the behavior will made at this forum, probably at the first page of this thread, or at most within a few pages. Experience suggests to me that there simply aren't any level low enough that some member on this forum will not be willing to sink to.

This would be useful, especially given the OP's seagull habits.


It would also be interesting to see you evidence the quoted story is, in fact, true.

QED.

 

[tsig]

Would it be possible for you to consolidate all of these drive-by posts into one "Haters hatin'" thread? They're kind of spammy as-is, and as they amount to the same argument each time, don't really deserve their own topics.

Probably just ought to ban all threads criticizing Islam since they all have the same subject.

 

[Brainache]

QED.

Really?

Not accepting personal anecdotes at face value is Apologetics now?

Have you forgotten this is a Skeptic Forum?

 

[Craig B]

Probably just ought to ban all threads criticizing Islam since they all have the same subject.

Why? The OP is about "behaviour".

Does this testimony describe a tolerant behavior? I don't think so. Nonetheless I'm convinced that some defense or apology for the behavior will made at this forum

It predicts that naughty people will start to justify intolerance. I'm sure it is equally hostile to intolerance in any religious community.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

The same argument deserves the same response.
Yes, there are horribly intolerant Muslims that do horrible things. If this story is true than this is one of those horrible things.
What is never shown that this is somehow inherent to or unique in Islam.

Cherry picking stories does not a trend make.

Heck, it doesn't even show this is something inherent in religion, because a cursory glance at human history shows that this behaviour, though repellent, is very common.

 

[MontagK505]

The same argument deserves the same response.
Yes, there are horribly intolerant Muslims that do horrible things. If this story is true than this is one of those horrible things.
What is never shown that this is somehow inherent to or unique in Islam.

Cherry picking stories does not a trend make.

Heck, it doesn't even show this is something inherent in religion, because a cursory glance at human history shows that this behaviour, though repellent, is very common.

The issue is political as well as religious. Most Islamic states have their political ideology's and religious ideology's thoroughly meshed. As I pointed out, Salman Rushdie had a death price put on him by the leader of a major Islamic state. Few, if any, other Islamic states criticized this. In the 12th century this would not have been unique. In the 21st century most civilized countries regard this as abhorrent. Is this inherent to Islam? No, just imagine Christian crusaders with automatic weapons. The Christian crusaders are largely gone. But their Islamic brain brothers are still around.

 

[Aepervius]

You can place a plastic Jesus in a jar of urine and you don't have to worry too much about Jesuit hit-men.

That's not fully true, as the burning of cinema showing the "last temptation of christ" experienced. Or even abortion clinics bombing.

But there was no "pope" announcing an encycle "condemning to death" the urine jar christ guy.

As such you are right. In the other religion (example :christianity) it was believer on their own which decided to kill/burn/bomb.

Not sure if it makes any religion worst than the others. I tend to have the myopic point of view it is all garbage.

 

[Craig B]

These points are all very valid. The combination of religious and state power is pernicious wherever it occurs. And for historical reasons it occurs more frequently in the Islamic world than elsewhere. It is this which has to be brought to an end. The OP points out that the ex-Muslim would have been in mortal danger in Saudi Arabia, a religious state; but he was not in such peril, even from Muslim bigots, in secular Sweden.

 

[ddt]

Does this testimony describe a tolerant behavior? I don't think so. Nonetheless I'm convinced that some defense or apology for the behavior will made at this forum, probably at the first page of this thread, or at most within a few pages. Experience suggests to me that there simply aren't any level low enough that some member on this forum will not be willing to sink to.

No, the testimony does not describe tolerant behaviour. If it's true.

It would also be interesting to see you evidence the quoted story is, in fact, true.

Absolutely. There are various aspects to the story which make me doubt it.

He says he "returned to Sweden". So before his stay in Egypt and Yemen, he lived, and was raised in Sweden. He was 18 when the purported death sentence was pronounced, so by then he was back in Sweden. He has been active for a "few years" and lived in Egypt and studied in North Yemen. So how old was he when he went there? 16? 15? And really? North Yemen is a war zone. Did his parents let him go there, as a minor???
(I note the post you translated dates back to 2008, but that does not invalidate this point.)

Secondly, what's the connection between him and the Moroccan mosque in Skärholmen? Did he attend that mosque before his trips to Egypt and Yemen? How did they notice his apostasy in the first place? Mosque attendance is not obligatory in Islam.

Thirdly, what's the connection between the Moroccan mosque and the Saudi sheikh, Ar-Luhaydaan? Why did they contact him to pronounce a fatwa?

I've become quite skeptical of these apostasy stories. In the Netherlands, we had Ehsan Jami, whom I can only describe as an attention seeking troll: he couldn't keep a straight story on his own religious history or that of his parents from one interview to the next. But basically, all these conversion stories, whether from or to religion, follow the same playbook as the oldest such story in the book, that of Paul of Tarsus.

 

[MontagK505]

That's not fully true, as the burning of cinema showing the "last temptation of christ" experienced. Or even abortion clinics bombing.

But there was no "pope" announcing an encycle "condemning to death" the urine jar christ guy.

As such you are right. In the other religion (example :christianity) it was believer on their own which decided to kill/burn/bomb.

Not sure if it makes any religion worst than the others. I tend to have the myopic point of view it is all garbage.

The point I was trying to make is the Pope isn't likely to put a million dollar hit on you for making fun of Catholics. What bothered me about the Salman Rushdie incident was the threat came from the leader of a Islamic state. I don't know of any Islamic state that isn't a politically backward poop-hole. Is this because of Islamic religious ideology? I don't know. Countries dominated by Communism were/are politically backward.

 

[Craig B]

The point I was trying to make is the Pope isn't likely to put a million dollar hit on you for making fun of Catholics. What bothered me about the Salman Rushdie incident was the threat came from the leader of a Islamic state. I don't know of any Islamic state that isn't a politically backward poop-hole. Is this because of Islamic religious ideology? I don't know. Countries dominated by Communism were/are politically backward.

I don't know either. It depends what we mean by Islamic ideology. In former times Islamic states tended to be more tolerant in religious terms than their Christian rivals; but that most certainly isn't true now. Is it because Islamic ideology has changed? I don't think so; more probably the cause is political. Countries can be swept by waves of religious bigotry in times of crisis: it has happened here in Scotland more than once.

Anyway, where religion doesn't hold state power it tends to be more innocuous, whatever its ideology may say; and its adherents might be idiots, but they are not such dangerous idiots.

 

[catsmate]

QED.

So refusing to accept an unsourced, unverified, anonymous anecdote on a web forum is now apologising for an (alleged) death threat?
Allow me to introduce you to the concept of skepticism, as in not taking such a story as received wisdom.

The same argument deserves the same response.
Yes, there are horribly intolerant Muslims that do horrible things. If this story is true than this is one of those horrible things.
What is never shown that this is somehow inherent to or unique in Islam.

Cherry picking stories does not a trend make.

Heck, it doesn't even show this is something inherent in religion, because a cursory glance at human history shows that this behaviour, though repellent, is very common.

This. Islam is stupid, it's a nonsensical and irrational set of beliefs. So is Christianity, Judaism, Mormonism, Scientology and many, many more.

The point I was trying to make is the Pope isn't likely to put a million dollar hit on you for making fun of Catholics. What bothered me about the Salman Rushdie incident was the threat came from the leader of a Islamic state. I don't know of any Islamic state that isn't a politically backward poop-hole. Is this because of Islamic religious ideology? I don't know. Countries dominated by Communism were/are politically backward.

Exactly, Islam shows many of the characteristics of medieval xianity, ironically a time when Islam was often far more tolerant than today.

 

[Chaos]

QED.

Asking for evidence is apologetics now?

Do you honestly consider yourself a skeptic?

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

The issue is political as well as religious. Most Islamic states have their political ideology's and religious ideology's thoroughly meshed. As I pointed out, Salman Rushdie had a death price put on him by the leader of a major Islamic state. Few, if any, other Islamic states criticized this. In the 12th century this would not have been unique. In the 21st century most civilized countries regard this as abhorrent. Is this inherent to Islam? No, just imagine Christian crusaders with automatic weapons. The Christian crusaders are largely gone. But their Islamic brain brothers are still around.

Yes, it's become less a Christian thing.
But be a protestant in a catholic area of Northern Ireland (or vice versa)
Walk with a Man U shirt in certain areas of Manchester after they beat Man city
Drive around with Gay love is OK in certain areas of the US (Top gear episode)
Make fun of the Thai king as a foreigner in Thailand
Say you'd rather want the Crimea to stay Ukrainian in Sevastopol now.
Be a teenager making a bad tweet joke about American airlines.
Be a sport start for team X and then join team Y which has always been team X's big rivals.
Leave an abusive spouse.
Look at a drunk the wrong way.

Each of these examples has led to similar death threats and even physical abuse. And in each case it's just as stupid as an apostasy threat. Yet they happen just as often if not a LOT more.
I'd say to condemn a person for their actions, not for the actions of those of their affiliated sports/religion etc.

 

[marplots]

These stories don't do much for me. They are the atheist equivalent of the anecdotes the Christians pull out about some poor atheist who saw the light.

What's the take home message; Muslim ideology includes a death sentence for apostasy? Well, duh. Did you know they were killing family members for offenses against honor? Have you heard about cartoonists being threatened for drawing cartoons of Muhammad?

The surprising thing (if the story is true) is that the writer, well versed in Islam, would be the least bit surprised.