Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[TheRealnz]

Ok.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Observatory_for_Democracy_and_Elections

It's led by Luc Michel and Jean-Pierre Vandersmissen, both followers of neo-Nazi politician Jean-François Thiriart.



They are Putin lovers, so presumably Putin invites them when he needs to make an election seem legit. Too bad people know they are neo-Nazis.



Off topic and a tu quoque. This is about Russian aggression.



People are already dying. People died in Georgia. People die constantly in Chechnya. People have died and - as long as Russia doesn't back down - will continue to die in Ukraine. The wars you want to avoid are happening anyway, the difference being it's out of sight and out of mind for you.



For starters, nobody has asked the US to attack Russia, so this is a strawman of your creation. Secondly, the US prides itself for standing up for Democracy. It has done so with varied success in the past. Even if one is to be cynical and assume that the US never does anything without a self-interest, it is definitely in their self-interest to have a stable Europe and a Russia that isn't a threat to its neighbors.



It's an entirely defensive measure, which is obvious to everyone, including Putin.



No, I asked if you could prove that it is true.




No, they could not. They would not be living up to their deal with their Eastern member nations if they did.




I was talking about recent NATO movements.

Is it strange that nations that feel threatened by Russia would want to join NATO? In fact, their fears have been shown to be absolutely founded in reality by recent events.

Having racist members doesn't make an organization racist, as I've said before it is a group that monitors African election, why would Neo-nazis do that. All that being said I've dropped them and used other accounts of the elections.

I could easily say the OSCE are NATO/US lovers, doesn't have anything to do with if they do their job properly or not.

Actually you are talking about Russian aggression, I'm talking about US/NATO aggression.

People dying in Georgia and Checyna have nothing to do with the statement you replied to. People die every day for various reasons. regional conflict between russia and small states aren't wars I"m hoping to avoid because I'm not a member of either state. I'm hoping to non-defensive US wars and nothing else.

You haven't asked the US to attack, the members of the Ukranian coup, and various warhawks in the US have been lobbying for the US to attack Russia and to put boots on the ground to repel Russia out of the Ukraine. It is that attitude that I'm against, on top of that, being that the US was behind the coup and involved with its leadership and organization, I'd say they've instigated the whole situation and they are hardly being defensive but are actually the offenders in this situation, it is Russia who is acting defensively to counter US/NATO expansion to their borders.

Nope it isn't defensive at all, US/NATO expansion since the fall of the USSR is entirely offensive movement against Russia and nothing else.

The sources I posted have proven my point. I said you have East Ukranians who say that the coup government is using blackwater mercenaries. You asked to prove that contention, and I have proven that you have east ukranians that believe that blackwater mercs are working for the coup government. Seems you are now trying to blatantly move the goalpost, since you were most likely unaware that blackwater and PMCs were even involved.

You talking about recent NATO actions are irrelevant. US/NATO can deescalate none the less and stop pressing against Russia like the cold war is still in effect.

 

[A'isha]

You haven't asked the US to attack, the members of the Ukranian coup, and various warhawks in the US have been lobbying for the US to attack Russia and to put boots on the ground to repel Russia out of the Ukraine. It is that attitude that I'm against, on top of that, being that the US was behind the coup and involved with its leadership and organization, I'd say they've instigated the whole situation and they are hardly being defensive but are actually the offenders in this situation, it is Russia who is acting defensively to counter US/NATO expansion to their borders.

Quick question: which country has already sent troops into and directly annexed one part of Ukraine, and is currently intervening militarily in another part (and whose president has publicly declared that he has the authorization to send more troops into Ukraine)?

Is it:

A) The United States

B) NATO

or

C) Russia?

 

[CapelDodger]

Having racist members doesn't make an organization racist, as I've said before it is a group that monitors African election, why would Neo-nazis do that.

To pad their resume, as astro-turf organisations do. But I agree with your substantial point, and following in the same vein, having neo-nazis claim to support a government (Russian, Ukrainian or any other) does not in any way damn said government.

All that being said I've dropped them and used other accounts of the elections.

Sound move.

There are Ukrainian and Russian neo-nazis that you and I couldn't tell apart if we were crossing the street to avoid them. The only difference is an accident of birth which still leaves them all Slavs. And hating The Jews, as Slav nationalists always do, pretty much by definition.

If I'd been born in Crimea I'd have been born a Ukrainian but my brother, fifteen months older, would have been born a Russian. Accidents of birth. The Crimea as part of some Ukrainian Motherland strikes me as a bit odd but there you go. For most of my life there'd never been a Ukraine (apart from a brief period during the Civil War and not nearly as large) but now there it is, with boundaries and everything, and apparently it's worth killing and dying for.

I'm glad to be well out of it myself.

 

[uke2se]

Having racist members doesn't make an organization racist,

Having Nazi leaders makes an organisation Nazi.

as I've said before it is a group that monitors African election, why would Neo-nazis do that.

They "monitor" elections in places where they have a vested interest in the election appearing legitimate.

All that being said I've dropped them and used other accounts of the elections.

I could easily say the OSCE are NATO/US lovers, doesn't have anything to do with if they do their job properly or not.

You could say that, but it would be a lie.

Actually you are talking about Russian aggression, I'm talking about US/NATO aggression.

There hasn't been any US/NATO aggression regarding the Ukraine crisis.

People dying in Georgia and Checyna have nothing to do with the statement you replied to.

Yes, it does. You claimed that you wanted to avoid people dying. I informed you that people are already dying due to Russian aggression, so it's too late to avoid it.

People die every day for various reasons. regional conflict between russia and small states aren't wars I"m hoping to avoid because I'm not a member of either state. I'm hoping to {avoid} non-defensive US wars and nothing else.

A war in this situation would be a defensive one from NATO's perspective.

You haven't asked the US to attack, the members of the Ukranian coup, and various warhawks in the US have been lobbying for the US to attack Russia and to put boots on the ground to repel Russia out of the Ukraine.

By the "members of the Ukrainian coup", I take it you actually mean the interim government of Ukraine. Are you saying that they have requested for the US to attack Russia? Source, please.

It is that attitude that I'm against, on top of that, being that the US was behind the coup and involved with its leadership and organization, I'd say they've instigated the whole situation and they are hardly being defensive but are actually the offenders in this situation, it is Russia who is acting defensively to counter US/NATO expansion to their borders.

Prove that the US was behind any of this.

Nope it isn't defensive at all, US/NATO expansion since the fall of the USSR is entirely offensive movement against Russia and nothing else.

Nope, it's a defensive move based on the fear many nations rightfully have towards Russia.

The sources I posted have proven my point.

No, they haven't.

I said you have East Ukranians who say that the coup government is using blackwater mercenaries. You asked to prove that contention, and I have proven that you have east ukranians that believe that blackwater mercs are working for the coup government. Seems you are now trying to blatantly move the goalpost, since you were most likely unaware that blackwater and PMCs were even involved.

You really need to work out what phrases mean. I am not moving any goal-posts. I am asking, and have been asking, for you to prove that blackwater mercs or any Western based forces are working for the Ukrainian government in the Ukraine. You are right that I am unaware that they are involved, because neither you nor anyone else has provided on iota of evidence to indicate that they are.

You talking about recent NATO actions are irrelevant.

No it isn't.

US/NATO can deescalate none the less and stop pressing against Russia like the cold war is still in effect.

Putin is rapidly restarting the Cold War on his own accord. NATO and the West cannot and should not back down. Russia needs to de-escalate the situation before anyone else does. Russia created this situation.

 

[angrysoba]

The US State Department has released photos of soldiers in eastern Ukraine, which it says show that some of the fighters are Russian special forces.

The BBC is unable to verify the pictures, which were provided by Ukrainian diplomats.

The photos appeared to identify Russian soldiers, and show similarly equipped and armed fighters in different cities in eastern Ukraine.

There was no immediate response to the pictures from the Russian government.

Pro-Russian militants are holding official buildings in towns and cities in the east. However, Russia has denied it has any soldiers in Ukraine.

The photos, provided to the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, appeared to show the same man taking part in operations in Kramatorsk and Sloviansk in eastern Ukraine, and in operations in Georgia in 2008.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27104904

 

[Caustic Logic]

Wow, now criticism of poor critical thinking is Denial and Bitching. Let's just give up all analysis and just rely on confirmation bias and labeling, eh?

No it's denial and bitching. And games and gerbil cartoons.

Turns out that attack on Slovyansk was a Russian provocation after all. AP:

BYLBASIVKA, Ukraine – Within hours of an Easter morning shootout at a checkpoint manned by pro-Russia insurgents in eastern Ukraine, Russia’s Foreign Ministry issued a statement blaming militant Ukrainian nationalists and Russian state television stations aired pictures of supposed proof of their involvement in the attack that left at least three people dead.

The Ukrainian Security Service, however, said the attack was staged by provocateurs from outside the country. And the presented evidence – particularly a pristine business card said to have been left behind by the attackers – was met with widespread ridicule in Ukraine, where it soon had its own Twitter hashtag.

I'd like to see that card. Antone see a photo of its presentation by the proud Scooby Doo detectives of the Kiev Cabak? I'm guessing it says
V.I. Putinov, false flagger extraordinaire.
"When you want it done right, and someone else blamed."

But this one, he goofed up.

 

[angrysoba]

No it's denial and bitching. And games and gerbil cartoons.

Turns out that attack on Slovyansk was a Russian provocation after all. AP:


I'd like to see that card. Antone see a photo of its presentation by the proud Scooby Doo detectives of the Kiev Cabak? I'm guessing it says
V.I. Putinov, false flagger extraordinaire.
"When you want it done right, and someone else blamed."

But this one, he goofed up.

Errr...the hashtag appears to refer to the Right Sector leader's business card.

On April 20, the hashtag #ВизиткаЯроша [Yarosh's business card] set new records, becoming the most popular request of Russian and Ukrainian social network users. Internet users have ridiculed the Russian media’s claims that on Easter night Right Sector militants attacked a checkpoint in Sloviansk.

The Russian media report alleged that inside “the cars of pro-Russian citizens of Sloviansk burned by the militants,” in addition to guns and dollars, business cards of Right Sector leader and presidential candidate Dmytro Yarosh were found.

http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/04/20/hashtag-yaroshs-business-card-blows-the-internet-away/

 

[Caustic Logic]

Hm. Reading again, sounds like AP really means the gov. cites the card as evidence. Since Yarosh's group did it/were framed, I'd guess the hashtag is a joke saying "we're not fooled." Interesting.

 

[carlitos]

 

[angrysoba]

Hm. Reading again, sounds like AP really means the gov. cites the card as evidence. Since Yarosh's group did it/were framed, I'd guess the hashtag is a joke saying "we're not fooled." Interesting.

So when you thought it was a Russian business card you thought, "How convenient!" but when it turns out it was a Pravy Sektor card, it was "Hmmm...that figures!"

 

[Caustic Logic]

Reading your quote more fully then... okay, both sides are claiming business cards as evidence? And the hashtag ridicule apparently is connected to the case of Right Sector cards.

So the AP article is misleading?

Both claims sound ridiculous, of course.

 

[Childlike Empress]

I have a question for angrysoba.

You linked to and quoted parts of the full text of the Geneva deal in #2095. In #2083 I suspected that the putschist regime's foreign minister Deschytsia didn't read the fine print when he declared the occupation of buildings in Kiew, including the Maidan itself, to be "legal" and therefore not included in the very straight declarations of the agreement.

Do you think someone in the position of a top diplomat of a major nation state has any excuse to misrepresent the very text he personally signed?

 

[angrysoba]

I have a question for angrysoba.

You linked to and quoted parts of the full text of the Geneva deal in #2095. In #2083 I suspected that the putschist regime's foreign minister Deschytsia didn't read the fine print when he declared the occupation of buildings in Kiew, including the Maidan itself, to be "legal" and therefore not included in the very straight declarations of the agreement.

Do you think someone in the position of a top diplomat of a major nation state has any excuse to misrepresent the very text he personally signed?

As far as I know I quoted the full text, not "parts of the full text" of the Geneva deal.

The answer to your leading question is no, but it is so laden with assumptions and your characteristic spin that I do not know if you are representing what happened accurately.

 

[angrysoba]

Reading your quote more fully then... okay, both sides are claiming business cards as evidence? And the hashtag ridicule apparently is connected to the case of Right Sector cards.

So the AP article is misleading?
Both claims sound ridiculous, of course.

The stuff about Yarosh's business card was in the very article that you quoted from. You clearly did not even read the whole AP article. So in answer to your question, the AP article was misleading to those who did not read it properly, yes. But the only claim I have seen so far about a Russian business card is your clumsy and hasty attempt at satire. You would probably have been better off taking the time out to read a little more before you started writing this:

I'd like to see that card. Antone see a photo of its presentation by the proud Scooby Doo detectives of the Kiev Cabak? I'm guessing it says
V.I. Putinov, false flagger extraordinaire.
"When you want it done right, and someone else blamed."

But this one, he goofed up.

 

[Childlike Empress]

As far as I know I quoted the full text, not "parts of the full text" of the Geneva deal.

The answer to your leading question is no, but it is so laden with assumptions and your characteristic spin that I do not know if you are representing what happened accurately.

Sorry, indeed you quoted the full text. We'll potentially need this agreement should taking the wig seriously become of any importance, bizarre as it seems.

 

[angrysoba]

Dunno, sometimes the English language seems so ambiguous to me. Maybe "you quoted parts and linked to the full text" would have been better. We'll potentially need this agreement should taking the wig seriously become of any importance, bizarre as it seems.

I don't know who "the wig" is, but just to let you know, I find the Geneva deal itself to be very strange. From what I can make out the Euromaidan are for it, but some of the wording seems directly aimed at dispersing them from the organized protests in Kiev which is no doubt what the Russians are demanding but also I wonder if it was easily acquiesced to because the government in Kiev would also be happy to disperse the Euromaidan protesters and also the troublesome right-wing thugs that demand military action.

 

[Childlike Empress]

I don't know who "the wig" is, but just to let you know, I find the Geneva deal itself to be very strange. From what I can make out the Euromaidan are for it, but some of the wording seems directly aimed at dispersing them from the organized protests in Kiev which is no doubt what the Russians are demanding but also I wonder if it was easily acquiesced to because the government in Kiev would also be happy to disperse the Euromaidan protesters and also the troublesome right-wing thugs that demand military action.

Euromaidan certainly isn't for it, and the content is as clear as can be, pointing to the whole country, and rendering ridiculous what the wig - John Kerry - in concert with the mighty Wurlitzer pretends, that Lavrov is somehow wrong to include the situation in Kiew, Lvov and the other places where the fascist militia and Parubiy's "National Guard" are gathering into the problem.

 

[LSSBB]

No it's denial and bitching. And games and gerbil cartoons.

Turns out that attack on Slovyansk was a Russian provocation after all. AP:


I'd like to see that card. Antone see a photo of its presentation by the proud Scooby Doo detectives of the Kiev Cabak? I'm guessing it says
V.I. Putinov, false flagger extraordinaire.
"When you want it done right, and someone else blamed."

But this one, he goofed up.

What the hell could it be denial of? No case for anything was ever made there.

Nice to see you defining things for CE though. Can CE talk while you drink a glass of water?

(for the record that is a joke, not an allegation of sock puppetry.)

You do agree that resulting to insults and labeling is poor style, though, do you not?

In any case, with regards to denial, what do you think of Putin using unmarked troops to take the Crimea, or neo-Nazis for election validation? You know, the US invaded Iraq, are they still there? Will Russia still have Crimea (and maybe more) in 10 years? Is this about decrying aggression, or chosing sides? Isn't the cold war over? Do we want it to return?

 

[McHrozni]

Errr...the hashtag appears to refer to the Right Sector leader's business card.

http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/04/20/hashtag-yaroshs-business-card-blows-the-internet-away/

The card is absurd. Why would masked gunmen carry business cards of their commander anyway? Surely any information on the card could easily be memorized, or at least saved on a mysterious piece of technology called a "cell phone"? Guns and ammo are obvious contenders to have in a drive-by shooting, and dollars are the preferred foreign currency in Ukraine (at least they were 10 years ago, I doubt this changed), so nothing weird there. Other than someone decided to carry foreign currency on a drive-by shooting, apparently.

Well, if it's not a botched false flag, it is a world-class effort at making it look like one. Russian response suggests the former, it was a botched false flag operation gone awry. Good enough for their domestic consumption I guess, which is possibly all they wanted.

McHrozni

 

[Caustic Logic]

Yay! I was first to bring up the business cards issue!

Next: fallout, since I should've left it to someone else.

The stuff about Yarosh's business card was in the very article that you quoted from. You clearly did not even read the whole AP article. So in answer to your question, the AP article was misleading to those who did not read it properly, yes.

Well that was my problem then. Obviously by the many typos I was rushed at the time (was going to wait, but wanted to respond to LSSB anyway...) It's not even misleading, really - I see now the second paragraph's connector "and" makes the card ridicule part of the Kiev response to the (Russian) evidence. Confusing to the rushed, and biased. (I was wondering how Kiev claimed to have collected evidence from the scene...)

Okay. There is no "both claims" and Russia's alone sounds ridiculous. Well, blaming Russian provocateurs should also ruffle a few feathers, but this lame-seeming cards "proof" helps make it seem that way anyway.

Hm ... no sooner than I'm wondering ... is it helpful enough that RS or allies really did do the attack, and put a bunch of Yarosh's business cards in there (the trunk, might well survive un-burnt), to trick the Easterners into making the ridiculous claim? Possible. But clumsy propaganda with little hope of success is usually the case for Soviet types like these, right?

Whoever's decision it was, from the Euroamiadan page, looks like the episode will do wonders for the neo-Nazi Ukrainian Nationalist's presidential bid. I didn't even know he had one, so maybe the surprise is over-sharpening this possibility... Just look at that branding, wow. The Joker, Putin, Gollum, Jim Carrey, historical figures, everyone wants a Pravy Sector card now. Near the bottom, some movie of (the Kremlin I think?) blowing up, his card flying out. Caption: "What Yarosh will do in 2015" That is, if he wins! Guy with the coolest card around suddenly, elections in a month, sounds pretty possible. More here and here on the Internet "meme" that's, at least, not hurting the cause.

Yes, back to how convenient. Not so rushed this time.

ETA: and it's just a thought. The whole set-up is problematic.