Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

However, the T1/2 and T(lag) of solid meals did not fit to normal distribution and thus median and percentiles were determined. The median time of T1/2 for solids was 127 min (25-75% percentiles: 112.0-168.3 min) and 81.5 min for T(lag) (25-75% percentiles: 65.5-102.0 min).

This one has the outliers of 170 min and 200 min.

Where is this outlier data published? I'm only seeing the abstract. Do you have the complete study?

You are now saying that since Lalli was incorrect with 2-3 hours that Introna had to alter his analysis because the court wouldn't believe the top forensic independent scientist. Is that correct?

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Lalli saying it could have been at most 2-3 hours is the corrected data (3-4 was the first figure) and a reasonable interpretation of the literature for the outer limit. However 2.0 is much more likely than 2.5 and 2.5 is much more likely than 3.0. Remember you must split the curve to take into account the fact we know she didn't die before 9 PM (or if you question that it still means Raffaele and Amanda aren't involved).

Anything over 20 minutes for the lower number is wrong.

Randy agreed that chyme could have slipped. He also agreed that we have no way to know if 500 cc was all she ate. If it was 400 cc found you would make the exact same argument.

You now have the substances reported by Lalli found further down as being part of her lunch. Do we even know if she ate lunch?

The PLE and the ILE have botched almost every aspect of this case and I say it is more likely they botched this than Meredith not starting GE for 2.5 or 3 hours.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

You are saying that Rudy is a dispicaable person that recognizes what he has done and is being reformed in prison. I'm just pointing out the possibility that you are wrong. I'm saying that it is possible that Rudy did all those despicable things but doesn't consciously recognize that he is the one that did it. If you are right, Rudy might feel guilt for his past mistakes and take the opportunity while in prison to rehabilitate himself. If you are wrong, Rudy would spend his time in prison showing the officials who he thinks he really is but the underlying illness would not be addressed. In either case, Rudy will get out of prison much earlier than he should. Time will tell if the Rudy that emerges is a rehabilitated new person or the same uncurred menace.

That's not what I said at all. I said that Guede was a despicable person.

Your thoughts about Guede's mindset have nothing to do with your theory that Meredith's clothes just happened to come off when Guede was moving her in the room and that his thumb just accidentally slipped into her "forbidden zone." I'm sorry but these suggestions are way off base.

Even if Guede is mentally ill as you theorize, he still took her clothes off and sexually assaulted her.

You also need to look at the position of the pillow so that you can see that it was plausible for him to step on the pillow after stepping in his semen as he was working to cover Meredith's body.

Guede's skype conversation and testimony do not show mental illness if you ask me but I am not an expert. Guede, with the help of his attorney, has manipulated the system in order to give him the best possible outcome. I believe that he is well aware of his actions, and he doesn't care who he hurts in the process of gaining his freedom.

Either way, I would think that a conversation could be had about Guede's state of mind without theorizing that Meredith's clothes just happened to come off by accident.

 

[Grinder]

No, it doesn't say that at all. Let me put it this way: saying it's more likely to be 9:00 than 9:30 incorporates all the possible times from 9-9:30 (9:01, 9:02 etc) and compares them to the ones after 9:30 PM. It will be more pronounced because we can eliminate anything before 9:00 PM as we've good reason to think it didn't happen then, and if it did then Raffaele and Amanda couldn't have been involved anyway.

Of course if the PLE did a correct job and the data is accurate it is more likely that it is 9:01 than 9:30 and more likely 9:30 than 10 and more likely 10 than 10:30. More likely don't set you free.

The question is whether the state of digestion exonerates the kids if the Naruto data is accepted i.e. 9:26. As we know the computer data can only alibi one person but does it prove that even one of them couldn't be there when Meredith died? No.

I explained the tail end of the curve to you days ago. If the data is correct and she ate 2.5 hours before 9 pm, of healthy people that hadn't started by then what percentage also wouldn't have started for another 40 minutes? The percentage become far bigger than the general population that starts far faster. We don't have that data but some bell curve analysis said something like 5%. If the chances she lived until 9:40 was 5% then they don't have an alibi.

You still have not produced a study that actually gives the longest GE time. The study you linked to today doesn't do that unless you are extrapolating from the median time numbers - at least I can't find them on the abstract.

 

[Grinder]

Heroic effort, Kaosium. I don't know how it could be said more clearly. Perhaps there could be a quiz to discover if people understand what you mean by "you must split the curve and why that is necessary."

Perhaps you can put in small words for us all.

Since you highlight the 500 cc perhaps you can explain how we know she ate 500 cc or perhaps you agree with Tesla that the water weight doesn't count.

What would the time of her death be by digestion GE analysis if we didn't know the girl dropped her off at 9?

ETA - Could you give an analysis of this:

This may be the best info yet on T(lag):

The lag phase is the time required for commencement of gastric emptying of solid
particles. It represents the time for solid food to be triturated into small particles that are then
passed through the pylorus. The lag phase can be measured as the time from meal ingestion to
first appearance of the radiolabeled solids in the proximal small bowel. This approach often
requires frequent imaging for at least the first 60 minutes of the gastric emptying study, as the
normal values have been reported to be 20±10 minutes (SD) (43Ziessman 2007).

Normal value for T(lag) 10 to 30 minutes.

That's from Consensus Recommendations for Gastric Emptying Scintigraphy
A Joint Report of The Society of Nuclear Medicine and
The American Neurogastroenterology and Motility Society*

 

[Desert Fox]

Guede's skype conversation and testimony do not show mental illness if you ask me but I am not an expert. Guede, with the help of his attorney, has manipulated the system in order to give him the best possible outcome. I believe that he is well aware of his actions, and he doesn't care who he hurts in the process of gaining his freedom.

I am scared that he may very well do exactly the same thing once he is released. These things are not usually one time events unless they have serious treatment. He has largely pushed the blame on Amanda and Raffaele as well.

 

[Dan O.]

Hi Bruce,
Thanks for adding the outline to the pillow, it helps better focus on Guede's actions.

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/1JW3BpA.jpg[/qimg]

You forgot to place an arrow where there is another apparent semen stain, which Rudy apparently stepped in, near that blood stain by Meredith's left hip, It has some of the shoe rings found on Guede's Nike sneakers:
[qimg]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/560/n7cr.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/513/byn9.jpg[/qimg]

I don't know why some people have difficulty combining these images.

That first image with the big red phallic arrow pointing at the purported semen stain between Meredith's legs leaving it to the viewers imagination that the stain was deposited as the result of sexual intrcourse and the last 2 photos claiming to show that the stain was fresh because it was transferred by the shoe. Go ahead and overlay the last photo on top of the first and look at where the shoe prints fall. Foot 1 cuts right across her left leg. Feet 2,4 and 5 go right through her back. While it might just be possible for foot 3 to avoid her side when taking into account the perspective, for the initial foot fall that picks up the semen from the original stain on the mid sole, the toes would have to be shoved up her .... Why isn't this initial foot fall depicted?

The stain might be semen, it might belong to Rudy. The prosecution is absolutely at fault for not having tested it. But the two halves of the defense argument here don't fit together.

 

[Kaosium]

Heroic effort, Kaosium. I don't know how it could be said more clearly. Perhaps there could be a quiz to discover if people understand what you mean by "you must split the curve and why that is necessary."

Thanks, perhaps the simplest explanation is to say: the prosecution's own estimate on this evidence put the outside range of ToD at 2-3 hours after she started eating. That's the 'simple chart version.' That has the latest possible ToD at 9:30 assuming a 6:30 start, the latest of the girl's estimates.

The estimates from the girls was they started eating at 5:30-6:30. To help narrow that down we know they started eating before the movie and Sophie and Meredith left shortly after the movie, The Notebook which runs for 123 minutes and stopped shortly for the apple crumble. Sophie has them leaving at 8:45 and said she went halfway with Meredith and got back by 9:00 which she remembered because she wanted to get back for a TV program that she returned for just before it started. It's about a fifteen minute walk and the CCTV camera has Meredith getting to the cottage having walked the last half alone and the corrected time on the camera shows about 9:00 PM. (uncorrected it shows 10-20 min earlier pushing this all back and making the ToD earlier).

8:45 PM minus two hours for the movie is 6:45, add in a break of fifteen minutes and you get a start time for dinner of 6:30. Niggle around the edges and say they skipped the credits and/or the break wasn't 15 minutes and it could have been 7:00 PM which doesn't change it that much, though it would make her going until 9:00 PM and being found with 500 cc in the stomach and nothing in the duodenum less unusual but what really matters is whether those conditions could have persisted to 9:30 PM. Only one thing actually happened, and those who 'question the data' because they think 2.5 hours impossible (with a 6:30 start) has just said the same of the possibility it was 9:30 with a 7:00 PM start. The latter for which there's no evidence and is simply yet another speculative allowance to the prosecution.

No amount of speculative nitpicking is going to change this, she was well overdue to have passed something and when that's the case she is always going to be more likely to have done it earlier than later. This is entirely independent of the other evidence that suggests she was attacked soon after she got home, but if that's true it shouldn't surprise anyone that this suggests 9:00 PM is the most likely time she was attacked, assuming everything before 9:00 PM is eliminated.

 

[Diocletus]

I don't know why some people have difficulty combining these images.

That first image with the big red phallic arrow pointing at the purported semen stain between Meredith's legs leaving it to the viewers imagination that the stain was deposited as the result of sexual intrcourse and the last 2 photos claiming to show that the stain was fresh because it was transferred by the shoe. Go ahead and overlay the last photo on top of the first and look at where the shoe prints fall. Foot 1 cuts right across her left leg. Feet 2,4 and 5 go right through her back. While it might just be possible for foot 3 to avoid her side when taking into account the perspective, for the initial foot fall that picks up the semen from the original stain on the mid sole, the toes would have to be shoved up her .... Why isn't this initial foot fall depicted?

The stain might be semen, it might belong to Rudy. The prosecution is absolutely at fault for not having tested it. But the two halves of the defense argument here don't fit together.

So where is the palm print that they used to ID Rudy? All I see is a blob of semen and some footprints.

Has anyone ever seen this palm print?

 

[JREF2010]

Judge Nencini, despite not wanting to run a Taliban court, denied nearly all defence requests for reexamination of evidence. Instead, Nencini stayed with the playbook written by the March 2013 Cassazione reversal of the acquittals, and followed the the playbook which was, in turn, written for them by Galati back in Perugia.

And even then, the three things at trial Nencini actually chose to heard, all three went Knox/Sollecito's way. All three.

And Nencini convicted anyway? If all three of the items test at the new appeals trial went Sollecito's/Knox's way, what was there to convict them?

Everyone should read the Borsini motivations report, from Rudy Guede's fast track trial (meaning that there was no trial-hpase it it). In that non-trial-phase process, with no evidence submitted for testing, and being unrepresented, Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were virtually convicted themselves. Yes, that's right, at the Borsini trial. (Who here has even ever heard of Borsini?)

So what's Nencini to do? Well, he does what he did in Jan 2014. Not rock the boat and kick the decision upstairs. But also Nencini is set to pronounce on issues about things NOT entered into his court. If Nencini goes with prosecutor Crini's brand new "factoid", that the kitchen knife is now a match for the bedsheet outline of another knife (in Meredith's blood), then.....

...... Nencini really IS a Taliban judge. That was not one of the 3 items entered into evidence at the Nencini trial, yet he's poised to find it as factual anyways.

May as well. It is proof that Knox/Sollecito are being wrongfully prosecuted - all the prosecutions have are pieces of evidence not tested at a trial.

This is the most recent piece I could find on the US Govt. stance for extradition. Do you know of anything else?
http://www.state.gov/secretary/remarks/2014/02/221289.htm


QUESTION: Kerry may soon find himself in the middle of an extraordinary extradition request. The tabloid nature of some of the coverage notwithstanding, the saga of Amanda Knox could pose a serious diplomatic crisis. Knox was recently retried in Italy for the murder of her roommate. The Italian court found her guilty. Now back in the States, Knox could one day face extradition back to Italy to serve a prison sentence.

It may come that the Italians come to you and say we really would like Amanda Knox to come back to this country to serve a sentence. It certainly looks like the justice system is going in that direction. Would you entertain that request?

SECRETARY KERRY: Well, we’ll see, Jake, what happens. It’s an ongoing legal process. There’s nothing in front of us now, and I don’t have to comment on it now and I’m not going to. We’ll let the legal process work out, and if and when the time comes that there’s a reason that I have to comment, I’ll do my duty.

 

[Kaosium]

Where is this outlier data published? I'm only seeing the abstract. Do you have the complete study?

Follow the link. If you cannot, or more accurately don't think this is worth what it would cost to do it, you can go here where the study is linked and it includes the outlier information:

The median time was 82 minutes, with the 25% percentile at 66 min. and the 75% percentile at 102 min. Out of 82 subjects (Figure 1D), the longest value was 200 minutes, and the next longest was 170 minutes

Anything over 20 minutes for the lower number is wrong.

No, it's not, but perhaps you could tell us why you think so. When you are done, feel free to email CSU and tell them their website is wrong because you found a study on the internet that said differently. Then contact the peer-reviewed Journal of Gastroenterology and Hepatology and tell them they are wrong because you went through a few pages of what came up on google and that Chen et al couldn't have found a T-(lag) median of (81.9 +/- 17.4 min) and the minimum in the range is 37.1. When they're done they better have a talk with Hellmig and his friends too.

They might say it's a poor idea to compare those two tests as they use different conditions and different methodologies. Then I won't have to anymore!

Randy agreed that chyme could have slipped. He also agreed that we have no way to know if 500 cc was all she ate. If it was 400 cc found you would make the exact same argument.

How would any of this matter? This doesn't go away with nitpicks and even imaginary speculative scenarios don't change the basic argument unless you go to extreme measures for things there's no evidence of and there should have been. If you do that, then all the extreme allowances I've made disappear before your very eyes.

No cheating!

You now have the substances reported by Lalli found further down as being part of her lunch. Do we even know if she ate lunch?

Not 'further down'--other end. I wish I could remember the analogy Kevin Lowe used to use to bunnies who thought that much could slip all the way through there with a little jostling. Something about a golf ball through a garden hose. Did you follow the link I provided? It even had pictures! The words are interesting too though.

Being as there was digested food there that was almost completely done digesting I'd say the evidence suggests she must have eaten at some time previous and several hours before the meal under discussion. My guess is lunch.

The PLE and the ILE have botched almost every aspect of this case and I say it is more likely they botched this than Meredith not starting GE for 2.5 or 3 hours.

I think they can count and notice if something is missing if they look for it.

 

[Kaosium]

Of course if the PLE did a correct job and the data is accurate it is more likely that it is 9:01 than 9:30 and more likely 9:30 than 10 and more likely 10 than 10:30. More likely don't set you free.

The question is whether the state of digestion exonerates the kids if the Naruto data is accepted i.e. 9:26. As we know the computer data can only alibi one person but does it prove that even one of them couldn't be there when Meredith died? No.

I explained the tail end of the curve to you days ago. If the data is correct and she ate 2.5 hours before 9 pm, of healthy people that hadn't started by then what percentage also wouldn't have started for another 40 minutes? The percentage become far bigger than the general population that starts far faster. We don't have that data but some bell curve analysis said something like 5%. If the chances she lived until 9:40 was 5% then they don't have an alibi.

I also explained the tail end of the curve for you, you have to take into account it must hit zero, (and soon!) and also noted it wouldn't be as dramatic.

Yes, I consider that if there's only a 5% chance Amanda and Raffaele could be there that's an alibi. Any alibi comes with a small chance it could be lies/faked.

You still have not produced a study that actually gives the longest GE time. The study you linked to today doesn't do that unless you are extrapolating from the median time numbers - at least I can't find them on the abstract.

You do realize they include the 25% and 75% values so you can extrapolate from them, right?

Now, a question for you: how can you tell when they're talking about a bell curve?

 

[kwill]

Perhaps you can put in small words for us all.

I'm not certain what you mean by that, so if it's important to the discussion you can explain further.

Since you highlight the 500 cc perhaps you can explain how we know she ate 500 cc or perhaps you agree with Tesla that the water weight doesn't count.

I only know that they measured 500 cc in her stomach and nothing in her duodenum. This is data. Do you believe it wasn't correctly collected?

What would the time of her death be by digestion GE analysis if we didn't know the girl dropped her off at 9?

As I've tried to say before, you have to start with what you DO know and work from there. 500 cc in the stomach, empty duodenum, still alive at 9 pm. It doesn't work to assume that the data is wrong unless that data is utterly impossible. This data is not.

ETA - Could you give an analysis of this:

This may be the best info yet on T(lag):

The lag phase is the time required for commencement of gastric emptying of solid particles. It represents the time for solid food to be triturated into small particles that are then passed through the pylorus. The lag phase can be measured as the time from meal ingestion to first appearance of the radio labeled solids in the proximal small bowel. This approach often requires frequent imaging for at least the first 60 minutes of the gastric emptying study, as the normal values have been reported to be 20±10 minutes
(SD) (43Ziessman 2007).

That's from Consensus Recommendations for Gastric Emptying Scintigraphy
A Joint Report of The Society of Nuclear Medicine and
The American Neurogastroenterology and Motility Society*

Sure. First, your source is this paper, in case anybody wants to read it. It's in one of those journals that doesn't have a paywall, so anybody who's interested can read the whole thing.

The paper is designed to set standards for the medicos who use scintigraphy to detect abnormal digestion. Scintigraphy is a method of measurement that depends on putting radioisotopes into people and then watching what happens to them.

Our goal was to propose a single, standardized protocol for performing GES that meets the needs of clinicians, the imaging specialists, and the patients.

(GES stands for Gastric Emptying Scintigraphy.)

They were looking for a standard way to figure out when a person has some kind of digestive issue, in other words. They attached some radioactive isotopes to a dish of scrambled egg whites, which I guess my Irish mom must have somehow known were very easy and quick to digest, because that's exactly what she always tried to feed me when I was sick.

In medicine it's important to measure the same things in the same way every time, so that diagnosis is accurate and reliable. The paper you suggested gives a protocol that seems quite unrelated to the subject at hand.

The standard scintigraphic meal for GE should consist of an egg-white meal (Egg Beaters® or generic equivalent) radiolabeled with 0.5–1 mCi 4 oz.
Specifically: (120 g, equal to approximately two large eggs) liquid egg white (99% real eggs, cholesterol-free, fat-free, and low-calorie); two slices of white bread (120 kcal), strawberry jam (30 g, 74 kcal), water (120 mL), and technetium-99m sulfur colloid, 0.5−1 mCi.

This is clearly not what Meredith ate, which makes it impossible to apply the testing protocol to her subsequent digestion.

The subject ingests the sandwich meal within 10 min. Patients may eat the egg and toast/jelly separately. For quality control, the staff technologist records how long it takes the subject to consume the meal and how much they consume.

This is not aligned with the description the English women gave of a leisurely meal consumed over a period of more than an hour while watching a movie, which, again, makes it impossible to apply the results of the testing protocol to figure out anything about her TOD.

It's much more reasonable to rely on the data: 500 cc in her stomach, empty duodenum, TOD after 9 pm, recognizable apple crumble components in her stomach, meal consumed begun sometime between 5:30 and 6:30 pm.

The probability that she was still alive at 9:30 pm is vanishingly small.

 

[RandyN]

So where is the palm print that they used to ID Rudy? All I see is a blob of semen and some footprints.

Has anyone ever seen this palm print?

No and no one ever will because the palm print is BS.

This was Perugia police attempting to take credit for something they had nothing to do with. That is the discovery that Rudy Guede was involved in the murder.

The truth is that Rudys friend Giacomo ratted him out. This made the fourth...or is that 5th person involved since the police were also looking at a Lumumba friend whose name I forget at the moment...also a black man BTW.

After they got over the oh crap moment of having yet another guy in this crime...the police came up with the palm print ID thing to help make them look less idiotic. Its a lie. No one has ever seen the palm print and also I have had been printed for security clearances several times and NEVER did anyone copy my palm print. Never! Its just another stupid Italian lie.

The food stuff never identified could have easily been mushroom...a rather common pizza topping in fact. Also mushroom vs apple is only possible if the apples were unpeeled...(doubtful). Otherwise the apples would be almost mush after simply cooking them....let alone after the digestive juices got to them. Mushroom OTOH is a tough little critter...you can test this yourself by boiling a peeled apple slice and a slice of mushroom together and see which one disappears first. It will be the apple...gone into sauce. The mushroom will be around for a long time...it may never break down in a reasonable time...kind of like corn or the hull of a corn kernel at least. (sorry)

Wow pants falling off and a mushroom and booze party prior to the attack. Sure those are facts. Wait! No they are not. They are rather weak speculations that are almost meaningless to this case. I dont care if MK TOD was 11:30. Toto still places AK and RS in the plaza for another 1/2 hour past that = innocent.

Who cares what Naturo tells anyone? It is meaningless. From 9:27PM until midnight AK and RS were in the plaza according to the "highly reliable and precise" witness of the prosecution.

I am quite certain that when Lali describes 500cc he is discussing the volume and not weight. It would not be dry...more like nasty oatmeal...it could be thick or thinner...or chunky. But it would look like a two cup measuring container approx full. I think the pathologist could have said far more about the "state" of the food in the stomach and what that might mean TOD wise.

I expect that Mignini wanted Lali to work with him at moving the TOD to 11:30 and after refusing Lali was fired... supposedly for talking about the case even though others like Napolini and company and even Mignini were yacking like old hens to any reporter towing the party line.

I think Lali was silenced from making any opinions about the TOD frankly. And so he simply gave general book answers and left his professional opinion out...probably to save himself some harassment.

Franks opinion as to why Lali was fired is simply wrong. He got several things wrong IMO. HE also thought Stefanoni was simply an honest scientist who had no reason to fudge the science.

I personally think the evidence is overwhelming that she was and is fudge covered! Her decision? Probably not...more likely her boss Biondo...Migninis DNA consultant.

This is not hard to figure out either...so wrong, conflicted, and so blatantly obvious...they didn't even try to hide these facts. Stefanoni claims to have never had a contamination and Biondo swears to it. What a joke!

 

[Chris_Halkides]

It took some looking to find it, IIRC

So where is the palm print that they used to ID Rudy? All I see is a blob of semen and some footprints.

Has anyone ever seen this palm print?

Diocletus,

Dan O. and RoseMontague had a good discussion about this one or two threads ago.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

inflection reflection

Grinder and Kaosium,

I am not convinced that everyone defines t(lag) in the same way. If you look at one paper, it is where the second derivative with time is zero...I am sorry that I cannot be of more help just now. Maybe komponisto could be persuaded to rejoin the conversation here.

 

[Kaosium]

Yes, that curve would lead to the conclusion that 3.0 was much more likely than 2.5 hours. After all it would have suggested anything past 8:30 (assuming a 6:30 start) was, as you put it 'nearly impossible' and since you describe it as basically the difference between three standard (highly unlikely) deviations from the mean and four (almost impossible) no matter what you do five or six is going to be more unlikely even accounting for the skew.

Ugh, I meant to say 2.5 would be much more likely than 3.0, not the other way around.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

I don't know why some people have difficulty combining these images.

That first image with the big red phallic arrow pointing at the purported semen stain between Meredith's legs leaving it to the viewers imagination that the stain was deposited as the result of sexual intrcourse and the last 2 photos claiming to show that the stain was fresh because it was transferred by the shoe. Go ahead and overlay the last photo on top of the first and look at where the shoe prints fall. Foot 1 cuts right across her left leg. Feet 2,4 and 5 go right through her back. While it might just be possible for foot 3 to avoid her side when taking into account the perspective, for the initial foot fall that picks up the semen from the original stain on the mid sole, the toes would have to be shoved up her .... Why isn't this initial foot fall depicted?

The stain might be semen, it might belong to Rudy. The prosecution is absolutely at fault for not having tested it. But the two halves of the defense argument here don't fit together.

Vinci's arrow is a "phallic" arrow designed to fool people into believing sexual intercourse took place?

We don't know exactly what Guede did. He could have moved Meredith around as he was assaulting her. He could have jolted her body while pulling the duvet over her.

All of this is speculation. It has nothing to do with overlaying images. That is pointless.

The facts are that there is a possible semen stain on the pillow that Guede stepped in. It is dated to the time of the assault. Sorry Dan O, Guede's thumb did not accidentally slip into Meredith's "forbidden zone" as you theorize. Guede sexually assaulted Meredith.

Suggesting that Meredith's clothes just fell off and the whole thing was just an accident as Guede moved around the room like a zombie like you suggest is just ridiculous and I cannot believe someone like you that has spent as much time as you have researching this case would come to that conclusion after all these years. Its mind boggling.

 

[Dan O.]

So where is the palm print that they used to ID Rudy? All I see is a blob of semen and some footprints.

Has anyone ever seen this palm print?

Look on the third photo in that last set I posted. The palm print is to the far right opposite the semen stain.

This print on fabric is not going to present the fine ridge detail typically used in identification of fingerprints but it appears to show the major crease lines in the palm. It may be detailed enough to confirm the identity once they have a suspect but it is doubtful that it could be used to locate the suspect.

Italy does record palm prints and has many on file (we found the number earlier). This print was supposedly in Rudy's immigration records and may have more recently been taken when he was caught in Milan.

 

[Dan O.]

Vinci's arrow is a "phallic" arrow designed to fool people into believing sexual intercourse took place?

We don't know exactly what Guede did. He could have moved Meredith around as he was assaulting her. He could have jolted her body while pulling the duvet over her.

All of this is speculation. It has nothing to do with overlaying images. That is pointless.

The facts are that there is a possible semen stain on the pillow that Guede stepped in. It is dated to the time of the assault. Sorry Dan O, Guede's thumb did not accidentally slip into Meredith's "forbidden zone" as you theorize. Guede sexually assaulted Meredith.

Suggesting that Meredith's clothes just fell off and the whole thing was just an accident as Guede moved around the room like a zombie like you suggest is just ridiculous and I cannot believe someone like you that has spent as much time as you have researching this case would come to that conclusion after all these years. Its mind boggling.

I provided a detailed step by step theory of what could have happened that is consistent with the known evidence. But you are falling back on the fuzzy logic of "we can't know exactly what happened" to avoid having to show how ridiculous your own position really is. I'll set aside my theory when I see a better one. So far, my theory is the only one on the table.

 

[kwill]

The facts are that there is a possible semen stain on the pillow that Guede stepped in. It is dated to the time of the assault. Sorry Dan O, Guede's thumb did not accidentally slip into Meredith's "forbidden zone" as you theorize. Guede sexually assaulted Meredith.

Suggesting that Meredith's clothes just fell off and the whole thing was just an accident as Guede moved around the room like a zombie like you suggest is just ridiculous and I cannot believe someone like you that has spent as much time as you have researching this case would come to that conclusion after all these years. Its mind boggling.

Yeah. I actually wondered if somebody hacked Dan O's login to post something so strange . . . her clothes came off by accident? I can't believe anybody would suggest that.