Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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But Kaosium,
Doc Stefanoni is up in Rome, isn't she?
That's a bit of a 2 hour drive away:
http://www.travelmath.com/driving-time/from/Perugia,+Italy/to/Rome,+Italy

Also, didn't she have to get special permission to drive on down and help in the collection of evidence in this horrible death of an enrolled English college student studying in Perugia?

Surely Mignini and Lali were there before the Stef, right?
I'd say it's Mignini's fault no body temp was taken.

Yes it's Mignini's fault, but I thought I read that Lalli didn't get the body until late in the night on the second, obviously the Polizia Scientifica were there beforehand and it was my understanding that included Stefanoni who for some damn reason was in charge of it and was the one who didn't take the temperature on Mignini's orders. I'm not certain of that, just that's what I recall.
 
No, simply that it's more likely she was attacked/killed before 9 PM than it is she was killed after 9:30 PM. Yes, the British girls would be better suspects than Amanda and Raffaele. That's damning with faint praise however.

There we have it. Dead before arriving home :rolleyes:

So what? Tell me what that means.

Since we have no idea how much she ate we have no idea if 500 cc was the entire meal.



Because of the nature of the curve at this juncture that doesn't matter that much, just like if a person who was 95 and was uncertain of their birth year were to find out they'd been born a few years later than they thought. The actuarial table would not indicate a much greater life expectancy and it would still be likely or highly likely they'd die before 110.

Now that's idiotic.

Find me a study any study where 5% of the population went more than three hours without passing anything to their duodenum.

Once again you miss a basic point. What we need is only 5% of people that took longer than a half hours after reaching 3 hours or 2.5 or whatever number.

Do you have any evidence he objected to Dr. Introna's presentation? Since the defense hired Dr. Introna to do that, why would you expect whoever you're talking about to replicate that analysis?

I don't get this. The description was of Introna. I thought you didn't agree with Introna.
 
Yes it's Mignini's fault, but I thought I read that Lalli didn't get the body until late in the night on the second, obviously the Polizia Scientifica were there beforehand and it was my understanding that included Stefanoni who for some damn reason was in charge of it and was the one who didn't take the temperature on Mignini's orders. I'm not certain of that, just that's what I recall.


Thanks for the info Kaosium,
I don't know what time the coroner showed up, maybe someone will post it shortly.

I do know that, as far as that fatal shark attack I mentioned, as soon as the Coast Guard got the call of a dead womans body found, they notified the local coroner who had a medical investigator there awaiting the boat to reach land so he could start his work, mere minutes after Miss McAllister was luckily found.

Surely it wasn't 10 hours or so before a coroner started examining Miss Kercher's body???


On another note,
with a few minutes to spare as I edit and process some surf photographs,
I was reading some of the early newspaper reports on this case we discuss.

Odd how in the beginning it is reported as just 1 throat wound, which then becomes 3 stab wounds. How a pocket knife morphed into Raffaele's huuuge kitchen knife along with a ridiculous theory that Amanda had been carrying it around "for protection". Right...

Here's a link with many of the old English newspaper stories, from right when this 1st happened and the days right afterwards. They seem to be quoted in full, and some are hard to find nowadays.
Link:
http://s2.excoboard.com/Courthouse_Steps_Mavens/122767/1724692

When I look at Meredith's throat wound again,
http://images.teinteresa.es/sucesos/agonica-muerte-Meredith-Kercher_TINIMA20110907_1137_18.jpg

I wonder how did the person who stabbed her do so again and again at almost the same exact place? It's seems like Meredith did not move her head, turn her throat, twist her body, flail about, thrust upwards with her feet and legs to try and escape nor try to attack the killer at all -(or did she, grabbing at him, a hair strand found?) after he first buried that knife all the way to the hilt, removed it fully and stabbed her the 2nd and 3rd time. The guys knife work looks like what I'd imagine a "pro" could do, not someone killing a girl for the 1st time.That person, if only 1, must had had Meredith in a completely submissive position and hold to be able to hit the same mark again and again. Especially if it was dark inside the bedroom. Agree?

ETA:
I'm a water person, so this is the only way I can think to convey better what I write of above:
If any of you folks fish, you might know what I mean when I write how hard it is to stab something repeatedly that's living, again and again in the same place to make it die...
 
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There we have it. Dead before arriving home :rolleyes:

No, that's not it.

Since we have no idea how much she ate we have no idea if 500 cc was the entire meal.

Yes we have an idea of what she ate, simply because you've not yet found it in the place you're looking doesn't mean it does not exist.

Now that's idiotic.

No, it's not. Regardless of whether you're 90 or 95 your life expectancy (from that point) isn't very long and won't vary much and the probability you'll live to 115 still isn't very good. If you look at that chart you'll see what I mean.

Similarly, regardless of whether you've gone 2.0 or 2.25 hours your chances of not passing anything to your duodenum by the end of three hours isn't going to change much either. Compared to the rest of the population (almost all of whom already passed it) you might, but that's not relevant, just like it's not relevant to the life expectancy of someone who is 90 or 95 that most people are dead by then. They may have beat all them, but it doesn't increase their life expectancy from that point forward.

Once again you miss a basic point. What we need is only 5% of people that took longer than a half hours after reaching 3 hours or 2.5 or whatever number.

You have that, I linked it for you already. It's the one I tried to explain with the analogy of heights, and also with the analogy of having to roll snake eyes again. You need snake eyes to get to 2.5, but you need snake eyes again to get to 3.0 hours from there. That last half hour is the killer, it's the one (essentially) no one can get past, the toughest of all tests.

This entire argument is predicated on that premise, it's what makes it so very powerful.



I don't get this. The description was of Introna. I thought you didn't agree with Introna.

I do agree with Introna, I'm representing his argument, post-correction by Lalli.
 
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Thanks for the info Kaosium,
I don't know what time the coroner showed up, maybe someone will post it shortly.

I do know that, as far as that fatal shark attack I mentioned, as soon as the Coast Guard got the call of a dead womans body found, they notified the local coroner who had a medical investigator there awaiting the boat to reach land so he could start his work, mere minutes after Miss McAllister was luckily found.

Surely it wasn't 10 hours or so before a coroner started examining Miss Kercher's body???

Surely they didn't fail to take the temperature of the body.

Surely they didn't forget to weigh it.

I could look it up, but off the top of my head Lalli didn't get it until around midnight, some twelve or so hours after the discovery of the body.

ETA:

OK, I looked it up, Lalli got there in the afternoon of the 2nd about 2-3 PM but it sounds like they shooed him away and he didn't get a chance to examine her body until after midnight. There's also some information on rigor that the other Randy had asked about:

Massei PMF p. 109-110 said:
At the hearing of July 3, 2009, Dr. Lalli explained, in substance, what he had already written in the consultancy report dated December 12, 2008, made on behalf of the Public Prosecutor. He arrived at Via della Pergola 7 around 14:00/14:40 pm, where the corpse of a female subject had been found and identified as Meredith Kercher. He was wearing single-use protective gloves and shoe-covers. He entered the room in which the dead girl was lying on the floor, almost entirely covered by a duvet, leaving visible only "a part of the head stained with blood and the left foot, which was sticking out from the lower edge of the duvet" (page 2 of the report). He did not do any tests, as he had been asked to preserve the crime scene as perfectly as possible in order to allow the scientific police to carry out their work.

However, he did note (at around 14:40 or 15:00 pm) that the girl's foot presented "cadaveric rigidity...of the ankle and the toes" (page 6, hearing of April 3, 2009).

He recalled that the entrance to the flat was restricted to Scientific Police personnel, first from Perugia and subsequently from Rome, who were wearing suits, shoe- covers and gloves. Dr. Lalli remained in the immediate vicinity of the house and stayed in contact in case his presence was needed and he could make his own verifications.

The inspection of the corpse was postponed, and was finally performed at around 0:30 am on November 3, 2007. At this point, it was possible to uncover the body completely and note that it was indeed "a female subject aged around 21, height 164cm, weight around 50 kilos; naked except for a shirt that she was wearing but that was pulled up over her breasts and was heavily soaked with blood". Also, her hands were bloodstained and were protected with plastic bags in order to allow sample collection, as some hairlike fibres could be seen.

At around 0:50 am, the following time-of-death data was determined: rigor mortis was present in all muscular regions; wine-red hypostasis staining was located in the posterior region of the corpse, which became white when pressed with a finger; rectal temperature was 22 degrees Centigrade and the ambient temperature was 13 degrees Centigrade (pages 9 and 10, hearing of July 3, 2009).
 
Attempting any precision from the age analogy is fraught with issues but here goes:

The chance of living to 105 when born (group eating meal) is .074%. Almost impossible just like not starting to empty in 2.5 or 3 hours. However if one lives to 100 the chance of making it to 105 is 14.6%.

The linked "analysis" seems to be based purely on the bell curve and not the science of digestion but even so it says much of what I've been saying

the linked "analysis"

a) Prob she died before 9pm = 0%
b) Prob she died between 9pm and 9.20pm = 95%
c) Prob she died between 9.20pm and 10pm = 4.5%
d) Prob she died later than 10pm = 0.5%

Of course, the caveat to all of this is that the bell curve isn't exceptionally precisely defined at such a far end of the curve. This of course is why I originally introduced a +/- 25% error to those numbers. However, even when such a large error factor is applied, it's patently clear that the overwhelming likelihood is that Meredith died well before 10pm, and that it's virtually impossible that she died later than 11pm (or at the very least was violently attacked any later than 11pm).

I've said 5% but 9:30 instead of 9:20 IIRC but really since we don't know when or how much she ate (I've looked and so far nothing close to a measure of how many pieces of pizza or how much apple crisp and ice cream) the ten minutes has no significance.

As I also have said all along the death was clearly well before the original TOD of 11:30.

I have said that I believe that the phone activity shows that the TOD was no later than 9:45 or 9:55.

At what point did Lalli change? What did he change? Was this before or after he was removed from the case?

Introna in his testimony has TOD between 21:30 and 22:30 pm (:p)

Here the defense asks about 21:00:

DEFENSE – so that he may be regarded as the time of death at around 21.00 hours taking account of evidence that there have been offers, i.e. that the beginning of the meal would be for someone around 17.30?

Consultant-(IDREES) – Some by a reasoning that does not consider the extreme highest but the extremes that you consider the Medes and also willing to consider the hours we have more 18.30 18.30 three hours are emptying at 21.30 21.30 up is due to begin the attack.

I can't find where he has it before 21:30.
 
What do you think?
If Meredit was facing the nightstand, and was stabbed on the left side of her throat, would there be more blood near her bed,than say her closet?


He says she was on her right side facing the wardrobe. That would place her in front of the wardrobe with her feet towards the bed.

I've looked at photos of her sweatshirt, shouldn't there be much, much more blood on it if she had it on when stabbed? I keep this in mind as I wonder about the blood on her arms, her hands. What about her pants, as RandyN noted recently. They are not very bloody, nor are her socks, her shoes.

If someone else was restraing MK, with her arms behind her as she was stabbed in her throat, might that help explain the lack of her right hand, her sweatshirt, her pants, etc, not being very bloody?


What if the sweat shirt had been pulled down without unzipping it? That would trap her hands at her sides rendering them useless to stop the knife attack or to stop the bleeding. If she is on her knees at the time of the stabbing her pants are mostly out do the way.


Was she still alive when undressed, or when raped?


After Rudy stabbed Meredith, his hands were covered with blood. His bloody hand leaves the streaks on the wall, the bloody knife leaves it's mark on the bed and he is forced to open the bedroom door with a bloody hand leaving blood on the handle and door. Meredith is restrained and bleeding in front of the wardrobe while Rudy leaves to quickly wash up and grab towels.

Meredith is then dragged to the center of the room. Rudy grabs her pants by the cuffs and they pull off causing the underpants to roll up and pull off. He then grabs the jacket to pull her around and it pulls off over her headis and in the process reversing the sleeves and rolling up the sweetshirts. Meredith is now on her left side and in extreme shock. Rudy lifts her onto the pillow on the floor by grabing the bra strap behind her left sholder with one hand and grabbing the inner thigh of her right leg with the other hand. The bra comes apart as we have seen and Rudy's right hand slips causing his thumb to enter the forbidden zone.

Rudy flipps the duvet over Meredith and walks out leaving a trail of bloody shoeprints. Meredith suffocating on her own blood buried under the duvet can muster only enough strength to raise her left hand at the elbow trying to push away the cover of her tomb.

How long did all this take from the start of the assault till Rudy came back to the room for the keys and then left the cottage? I'd say it was just a few minutes.


Note that in this scenario there was not even a suggestion of sexual motive in the undressing and no rape. It was all just accidental. Rudy appears to suffer from a severe dissociative disorder and may not ever recognize what he had done. He was just clumsily going through motions of what his mind in this state thought needed to be done. With the authorities supporting Rudy's partial innocence he is not going to be treated for this condition. He will soon be a walking ticking time bomb just waiting for a similar setting to trigger another attack. Who are they going to blame the next on on?
 
Hi Dan O.,
Interesting theory.
As I know of your in-depth knowledge of this case,
here's a couple more questions for you...

Bedroom light on or off?
Hard to visualize this fight happening fast and quickly in a darkened bedroom,
for that glass of water on the nightstand next to her bed was half full still.

The sweatshirt jacket was pulled down, that's interesting, something I'd not heard of before. Hard to believe that a novice thug, from what I gather RG was, would think quickly enough to do that, hmmm. If that did happen, why would there be a need to restrain Meredith's arms, where the bruising on her elbows happened? He was holding her with both of his hands on her elbows, where was his knife at this time? If he was holding her elbows tightly enough to bruise her, what did Meredith do when he would have had to have released 1 or both of her arms and pulled her sweatshirt down?

Was her sweatshirt found zipped or unzipped, I don't recall?

And what about the tiny knife tip wounds on her hands?


Her sneakers had 1 untied and the other still tied, right?
What about her pants, wear they found unzipped or un-buttoned?

Here's another twist:
Do you think that Rudy left a semen stain on the pillow case? It looks like he also stepped in some too. If so, when do you feel that Rudy did this, for it changes your scenario a bit, for Rudy has to get undressed too, unzip his pants, pull down his underwear. Did you think he did so before cleaning up in the bathroom or afterwards when he re-entered Meredith's bedroom?


Thanks for the help, it seems most don't really wanna talk about these details.
When I ponder these scenario questions, I still wonder why there wasn't hardly any blood on Meredith's right hand. I can imagine that she must have been in great shock though, but unless knocked out unconscious, I'd like to believe that she fought back whenever shou could have and tried to save herself by covering her wound till she passed out...
 
Grinder,

No you fail to understand, this does not prove she died before she arrived home, it just means that less than 1% of people will not have started to empty their stomach by then. The biggest source of uncertainty is the time of eating. This can also be addressed, ideally we need more information. My understanding is that they made the pizza sat down and watched a movie. This means that they ate during the movie. Part way through the apple pie was ready (45 minutes to cook 15 minutes to cool) probably popped in just before starting to watch the movie. The movie took about 2 hr and MK left about 20.30. So the likelihood is she ate about 18.30 but we could take a probability distribution with a sd of 15 minutes. In turn this gives a probability distribution of the upper limit, with a mid point of 21.00 but a 2sd distribution of 20.30 to 21.30.

Apologies for those who took my comment about stats being hard to understand personally. I meant explaining to juries. The real way to answer this question is using Bayesian stats and incorporating all the sources of data, the phone calls, the witnesses and the pathology. It should be done for Guede alone and for Guede, Knox, Sollecito.
 
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Pix...

Greetings all,
Though I know these details are kinda tough to deal with or think about,
let's do it, for I expect a lot from the JREF Court of Public Opinion Jury!

Amanda could not look at the autopsy photo's of her friend Mez after she died,
so I can understand your reticence to discuss this subject in detail.

But the fact of the matter remains,
PM Mignini secured a conviction against Amanda and Raff for a group assault, rape and murder against Meredith!

Have a look at a few pix I present for your thoughts,
for this is what Mignini envisions, do you?





These pix do not conform to the details or theory of Dan O., nor mine, about the brutal murder of Miss Kercher that most believe here. Isn't it about time to destroy the PM's theory? Come'on, step up to the plate, JREF'ers!

The people in the above photo's are actors.
Why can't I still not Google and find a simple pic of Amanda and Raffaele's defense theory?
Why hasn't there been a photo of a single black male actor attacking a MK look-alike actress
during a re-creation of Meredith's horrible murder?


Have a look at this 1:

WHAT?
Guede, a bachelor, likes to cook?!?
Didn't the dude only have a hotplate at his own pad?

No wonder that at most of the places where he simply broke in to for a burglary he made himself at home, and also made some food and scarfed! I bet he'da done the same if Meredith hadn't came home and inadvertaintly interrupted his regular schedule!
Thoughts?
 
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Attempting any precision from the age analogy is fraught with issues but here goes:

The chance of living to 105 when born (group eating meal) is .074%. Almost impossible just like not starting to empty in 2.5 or 3 hours. However if one lives to 100 the chance of making it to 105 is 14.6%.

The linked "analysis" seems to be based purely on the bell curve and not the science of digestion but even so it says much of what I've been saying

the linked "analysis"

a) Prob she died before 9pm = 0%
b) Prob she died between 9pm and 9.20pm = 95%
c) Prob she died between 9.20pm and 10pm = 4.5%
d) Prob she died later than 10pm = 0.5%

Of course, the caveat to all of this is that the bell curve isn't exceptionally precisely defined at such a far end of the curve. This of course is why I originally introduced a +/- 25% error to those numbers. However, even when such a large error factor is applied, it's patently clear that the overwhelming likelihood is that Meredith died well before 10pm, and that it's virtually impossible that she died later than 11pm (or at the very least was violently attacked any later than 11pm).

I've said 5% but 9:30 instead of 9:20 IIRC but really since we don't know when or how much she ate (I've looked and so far nothing close to a measure of how many pieces of pizza or how much apple crisp and ice cream) the ten minutes has no significance.

As I also have said all along the death was clearly well before the original TOD of 11:30.

I have said that I believe that the phone activity shows that the TOD was no later than 9:45 or 9:55.

At what point did Lalli change? What did he change? Was this before or after he was removed from the case?

Introna in his testimony has TOD between 21:30 and 22:30 pm (:p)

Here the defense asks about 21:00:

DEFENSE – so that he may be regarded as the time of death at around 21.00 hours taking account of evidence that there have been offers, i.e. that the beginning of the meal would be for someone around 17.30?

Consultant-(IDREES) – Some by a reasoning that does not consider the extreme highest but the extremes that you consider the Medes and also willing to consider the hours we have more 18.30 18.30 three hours are emptying at 21.30 21.30 up is due to begin the attack.

I can't find where he has it before 21:30.

Here is an interesting quote from the Pistorius media

Yet state pathologist Gert Saayman said vegetable matter in Steenkamp's stomach suggested she ate around two hours prior to her death at 3:17 am, a finding that conflicts with Pistorius's version of events that the couple were peacefully asleep at that time.

"To the best of my recollection he was in agreement," said Saayman about Perumal.

"We must be, so to speak, on the same page before we leave the autopsy room," he said. "We don't have the opportunity to go back."

Instead of Perumal, the defence called Jan Botha, a former state pathologist who has carried out approximately 25,000 autopsies.

Botha disputed Saayman's conclusion, saying that determining the time of death through gastric emptying is guesswork, calling it a "highly controversial and inexact science".

In an interview with local media last year, Perumal outlined his work philosophically, saying he is first and foremost a scientist.

"It doesn't matter what the case is, if it is big or small," he told the Mercury, a newspaper in Durban. "What is most rewarding is when the truth is presented and justice is done."


https://za.news.yahoo.com/top-pathologist-hired-pistorius-wont-testify-142633899.html

There is much to consider. This guy Perumal is the sort of fiercely independent
expert needed here. Botha sounds ideal for someone like Massei or Machiavelli.
 
I wonder if Nencini is arguing for an early ToD, then AK and RS go and argue in the square, have to wait for the break down truck to go, then go back to the flat to stage the break in.

The problem I have with most arguments for involving AK and RS is that in contrast to RG as a sole perpetrator, you need lengthy run in to the crime. The RG model assumes RG present when AK arrives home an almost immediate confrontation, and proceeding to death almost immediately.

The prosecution have to assume RS and AK had no plan as both had expected to be doing other things that evening, left RS flat after 21.30 via the square to be seen there then on to flat. It is unclear whether present prosecution theory allows for Guede to be present on arrival or whether he is let in by AK. If the row is about the dirty toilet then we have to allow time for this to happen, it also implies RG was AK's guest. Allowing for the MK phone to be most likely out of the flat by just after 22.00 (Scientific Police) and the presence of the broken down car from 22.30 to 23.30 who heard no scream. We are again in a very tight time scale for AK to arrive at the flat, let RG in for RG to leave a turd in the toilet MK and AK to row over this and this to escalate to murder. If you are some of the pro guilt posters you also have to include a period of torture. One does not need the stomach emptying data for this to start becoming ludicrous. There is less than 30 minutes for all this to happen!

Apologies if my posts are a bit disconnected the quote function seems not to be working for me at present.
 
I wonder if Nencini is arguing for an early ToD, then AK and RS go and argue in the square, have to wait for the break down truck to go, then go back to the flat to stage the break in.

The problem I have with most arguments for involving AK and RS is that in contrast to RG as a sole perpetrator, you need lengthy run in to the crime. The RG model assumes RG present when AK arrives home an almost immediate confrontation, and proceeding to death almost immediately.

The prosecution have to assume RS and AK had no plan as both had expected to be doing other things that evening, left RS flat after 21.30 via the square to be seen there then on to flat. It is unclear whether present prosecution theory allows for Guede to be present on arrival or whether he is let in by AK. If the row is about the dirty toilet then we have to allow time for this to happen, it also implies RG was AK's guest. Allowing for the MK phone to be most likely out of the flat by just after 22.00 (Scientific Police) and the presence of the broken down car from 22.30 to 23.30 who heard no scream. We are again in a very tight time scale for AK to arrive at the flat, let RG in for RG to leave a turd in the toilet MK and AK to row over this and this to escalate to murder. If you are some of the pro guilt posters you also have to include a period of torture. One does not need the stomach emptying data for this to start becoming ludicrous. There is less than 30 minutes for all this to happen!

Apologies if my posts are a bit disconnected the quote function seems not to be working for me at present.

So we're going to ignore Curatalo's testimony that they were in the square from 9:27 (or whatever) until shortly before midnight. And also, we will ignore Nara.

Could be right, but seems contrary to the story the supreme court wants him to tell.
 
So we're going to ignore Curatalo's testimony that they were in the square from 9:27 (or whatever) until shortly before midnight. And also, we will ignore Nara.

Could be right, but seems contrary to the story the supreme court wants him to tell.

Yes, it will be interesting to see what he says. Just remember there is no need for him to stick to the prosecution theory he could invent his own.
 
Hi all,
Here's a few more pix, and a coupla questions :

Rudy Guede, right handed?



The cuts on Rudy Guede's right hand when busted by German law enforcement:



When I look at Rudy's cut right hand, which I'd speculate was the hand holding the knife as he again and again, if the sole attacker, thrust it into Meredith's neck again and again, I visualize that his left arm and hand was holding Meredith in a strong embrace, right?

So his right hand should have been very bloody, his left hand not so, if at all, right?

Now look at the bloody handprint on Meredith's wall, above her bed:



Compare your hand, and Guede's too, to that handprint.
I feel that this bloody handprint is a left hand, do you agree?
And Meredith's left hand was bloody, her right hand hardly at all.

I could see if that bloody wall print was a right hand, sure, it'd probably belong to Guede. But it looks like a bloody left hand.

If so, what was Meredith doing standing up against the wall after being stabbed in her throat numerous times?
Thoughts?
 
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Rudy Guede - The Human Octopus...

Here's an interesting read from a fellow photographer with an online handle of papillon65 from DPReview:

Judge Massei's trial report on the pathology (paraphrased but with Page numbers from the report), not difficult to understand the probabilities here is it? In the first (annulled) appeal trial the defence even tried to introduce a couple of a couple of other stooges to admit they were there, strange considering they insisted it was Guede on his own don't you think?

Massei observes that the injuries Meredith Kercher sustained were the subject of intense analysis and speculation in the courtroom, yet his summary and conclusions are clear and concise. Many of Meredith’s injuries appear to have been caused by the actions of restraining, whereas some were obviously inflicted by a knife or knives and showed great diversity in both dimensions and overall harmfulness. Massei found that one point was particularly significant: the knife wounds from the attack to Meredith’s neck came from both the right and the left sides.[371]

Massei believes Meredith’s injuries lie at the heart of the debate over the single attacker versus the multiple attacker scenarios. The hypothesis of a single attacker requires that the single attacker continually modify their actions, first by exercising a strong restraining pressure on her, producing significant bruising, and then for some reason switching to life threatening actions with a knife, thereby changing the very nature of the attack from that of subjugation to that of intimidation with a deadly weapon, and finally to extreme violence by striking first from the right penetrating to a depth of 4cm (1.5 inches) and then from the left to a depth of 8cm (3 inches) into the neck.[371]

Massei describes the first knife blow coming from the right by saying that it was apparently halted from going any deeper by hitting the jawbone. The Court considered that this blow was an effort to force Meredith to submit to an action against her will. The Court also considered that the penetrating knife wound from the left was preceded by the action of running the knife over the surface of the skin on the same part of Meredith’s neck, just a few centimeters below the eventual strike zone where the serious, deeper second wound was inflicted.[371]

What surprised Massei about Meredith’s wounds was that in spite of all the changes in approach during the attack she somehow remained in the same vulnerable position, leaving the same part of her neck fully exposed to an attacker. If this were a solo attacker then this person released a firm restraining grip on Meredith to somehow bring a knife into play, then striking her first from the right and then switching the knife-holding hand to somehow float a knife in an intimidating manner across her neck on the left, before finally stabbing her in that same location on the left with a final debilitating blow.[371-372]
Massei concludes that throughout the attack Meredith remained virtually motionless, and he cites the almost nonexistence of defensive wounds on other parts of her body in comparison to the number, distribution, and diversity of impressive bruises and wounds to her face and neck. Massei finds this disproportion to be a significant factor, particularly when considering Meredith’s physical and personality characteristics.[370,371]

Meredith’s physical build was described as being slim and strong; possessing a physique that would have permitted her to move with agility. In addition, Meredith was described as being athletic and one who practised football, karate, and boxing.[369] Therefore, the court found it unlikely that only one person performed the attack against her, and inevitable that several people had acted together against Meredith; a group who forcibly restrained Meredith in movement so that she could not defend herself in any way nor shield herself with her hands in order to avoid the repeated attacks to her neck.[371]

Meredith’s defensive wounds were found to be minimal and consisted of a 0.6cm (quarter inch) long superficial slice on the palm of her right hand showing only a trace of blood and another 0.6cm (quarter inch) slice on the second finger of her left hand, along with several highly superficial cuts to the fingertip of the index finger. Massei finds this remarkable considering that the normal and instantaneous human reaction to that first violent knife stab to the neck would have been to protect the area of attack, along with a strong desire to escape even if it meant receiving a blow to another part of the body. However, Meredith remained in the same standing position while continuously offering her exposed neck to the actions of the person(s) striking her, with the peculiar distinction of striking first from the right and then from the left. Massei believes that a scenario as such seemed inexplicable, unless one accepts the presence of more than one attacker who, as a group, forcibly restrained the athletic Meredith’s movements while intimidating and striking her from multiple angles.[369]

Massei also believes that evidence demonstrated Meredith was still dressed and awake when the attack began on her and that the violence against her could not have taken place as it did if Meredith were lying on her bed. Massei concludes that Meredith was sober and fully conscious since no traces indicating either the use of drugs or the abuse of alcohol were found; all of which, if present, might have contributed an inability to firmly resist an attack.[369]

Furthermore, Massei finds it impossible to imagine a scenario in which a single person could have removed the clothes that Meredith was wearing (shoes, pants and underwear) while inflicting the sexual violence revealed by the vaginal swab. Massei finds it highly unlikely that one person could have caused all of the resulting bruises and wounds cited above in addition to removing her sweatshirt, pulling up her shirt, and bending her bra hooks by force before finally tearing and cutting the bra. The actions on the bra alone, during which a small piece of material with hooks was cut off and thrown to the floor, were necessarily conducted from behind Meredith and required the attention of both hands of an attacker, and thus Meredith would have had her own hands free to attempt actions of self-defense.[370]

Massei concludes there was very little evidence of any defensive maneuvers on the part of Meredith, which to him was a strong indication that several attackers were present, each with a distribution of tasks and roles: either holding Meredith and preventing her from any significant defensive reaction, or actually performing the violent actions. Massei concludes that the rest of the body of evidence came in full support of such a scenario, recalling that a biological trace of Rudy was found on one of the cuffs of Meredith’s sweatshirt indicating a gripping in order to prevent any reaction. In drawing together all of the elements mentioned above, both circumstantial and forensic, Massei concludes that the diverse morphology of the injuries, their number, and their distribution mandated that the violence against Meredith was performed by multiple attackers.[370-371]

I put some key parts in bold - Rudy Guede the octopus, amazing guy, capable of breaking into a first storey apartment leaving no trace, carrying out all of the above using only two hands and then cleans up a crime scene but forgot to flush the toilet and left his own footprints leading straight out of the front door - what a guy!

Link:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53051058

This posting, on a photographers forum of all places(!),
better explains why I have extreme doubts about RG being the sole attacker.
Thoughts?
 
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Here's an interesting read from a fellow photographer named William Carson,
no not the Bill Carson from the movie Tombstone,
but William Carson from DPReview:




This posting, on a photographers forum of all places(!),
better explains why I have extreme doubts about RG being the sole attacker.
Thoughts?
Is this the opinion of a photographer? Why should it be taken seriously? The writer seems to think she was undressed while resisting but it's more likely he undressed her after she was dead or helpless. I have posted on these threads before, from a forensic science source, that victims do not always display defence wounds e.g. when taken by surprise.

How did the other attacker(s) manage to leave no trace of him (or her) self? Did they come through the window like Guede? Did he burgle other places with a partner?
 
The cuts on Rudy Guede's right hand when busted by German law enforcement:
https://imageshack.com/i/n7lv6hj][qimg]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/835/lv6h.jpg




German cops are all well and good, but according to the Italian Supreme Court, Hellmann said that these cuts were from breaking the window . . . but they couldn't have been, because Rudy didn't have them before he fled to Germany.

Another symptom of the incompleteness of the evaluation is the [Hellmann Court of Appeal’s] evaluation of the fact that, almost two months later, Rudy was found with wounds on his right hand compatible with having broken the windowpane; this fact could have been material if traces of Rudy’s blood had been found, left during the hypothetical entry through the window with the broken pane, a circumstance that was not confirmed. Moreover, this very fact was denied by his friends (Alex Crudo, Sofia Crudo and Philip Maly), who had not noticed any wounds on Guede’s hands on the day of 2 November 2007, before he fled to Germany, as was written in Guede’s sentencing report, admitted as evidence but ignored by the Hellmann Court of Appeal (v. infra).

So, nice try, but you can't fix stupid.

BTW, did Hellmann actually say that the cuts were from breaking the window . . . as opposed to stabbing someone in the neck?
 
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Is this the opinion of a photographer? Why should it be taken seriously? The writer seems to think she was undressed while resisting but it's more likely he undressed her after she was dead or helpless. I have posted on these threads before, from a forensic science source, that victims do not always display defence wounds e.g. when taken by surprise.

How did the other attacker(s) manage to leave no trace of him (or her) self? Did they come through the window like Guede? Did he burgle other places with a partner?


Hi Anglolawyer,
Always a pleasure to read your thoughts around JREF!

With that said,
it's the Massei quotes that this photog posted about that really got my attention, even if, what's the word, they're paraphrased. And as far as photog's go, esh at right behind my old surfshop in "DogTown" reknowned photog and artist John Baldesarri - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Baldessari - still has original studio. Why wouldn't I wanna read of a photogs thoughts? Heck, from what I gather, professional law enforcement officers and Officers of the Italian Courts got this brutal case soooo wrong in their theory and convictions! And like you and I have surely made a few mistakes when posting online about this tragic murder case we discuss, I wonder how wrong could this photog that I quoted, be?


Anyways it was Massei that convicted AK and RS in a group rape and murder...
Rudy Guede, - The Human Octopus?
Interesting write up...


ETA:
I gotta go wash some dishes for awhile at my lil' sisters house before she and her hubby get home,
ya know, to thank 'em for a nice dinner last night!
See ya all next time!
RW
 
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German cops are all well and good, but according to the Italian Supreme Court, Hellmann said that these cuts were from breaking the window . . . but they couldn't have been, because Rudy didn't have them before he fled to Germany.



So, nice try, but you can't fix stupid.

BTW, did Hellmann actually say that the cuts were from breaking the window . . . as opposed to stabbing someone in the neck?

Yup, he did:

And it should also be remembered that on December [recte: November] 20, 2007, when he was arrested by the German police, Rudy Guede had wounds on his right hand, compatible with the breaking of the glass and with the climb.

Pretty dumb. isn't it obvious that the cuts are from stabbing Kercher in the neck? I'll be that's what the German cops thought.
 
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