Shrien Dewani - Honeymoon murder

[Information Analyst]

The accused husband's behaviour and actions before, during, and after his "honeymoon" trip to South Africa seem best reconciled as a consequence of the planning, execution, and cover-up of his wife's murder.

How?

Similarly the taxi driver's behaviour leading up to and following the killing is otherwise rather incomprehensible unless his confession of a premeditated murder conspiracy- initiated by the husband- is the fundamental truth of this crime.

How?

 

[anglolawyer]

How?

How?

Erm, you may have noticed I already asked that. Expect a cryptic reply, if any.

 

[ddt]

No, I don't think it's likely, and I don't think it is likely a wealthy tourist would commission a murder from a cab driver in a strange city.

I would like to see evidence beyond the statements of the cab driver and his cronies.

I agree, and would add the qualification that Shrien only met Tongo a few days before the murder, when he arrived in Cape Town.

Even if Dewani turns out to have a secret gay marriage to the German Master, I would still want to see evidence.

Me too. Where would they be married? Germany has no same-sex marriage, England & Wales didn't have it at the time, so they must have eloped to a country which has SSM. Can you name me one? Aha, South Africa.

 

[lane99]

Voir dire

The accused husband's behaviour and actions before, during, and after his "honeymoon" trip to South Africa seem best reconciled as a consequence of the planning, execution, and cover-up of his wife's murder.

Similarly the taxi driver's behaviour leading up to and following the killing is otherwise rather incomprehensible unless his confession of a premeditated murder conspiracy- initiated by the husband- is the fundamental truth of this crime.
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How?

Clever. But I'm afraid you'd have to bring a little bit more to the party before I took the time to repeat things you didn't seem to much understand the first time round.

For instance, has it dawned on you yet that one month's salary is indeed sufficient to procure a hitman?
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[Ampulla of Vater]

you need a little more water in your ampoule. This was the quote from The Fail:

And three days before her death, she messaged Sneha: 'I don't feel happy at all.' Sneha has told police that Anni called off the engagement and marriage at least three times, only for Shrien to change her mind each time.

I know who Sneha is alrighty. According to her, supposedly gay Shrien talked Anni out of breaking things off three times! That's three chances for him not to marry that did not involve murdering anybody. Why was he desperate to marry but then, once married, desperate not to be?

Oh that gay man. I see now, so sorry. Indian culture is at play here, I think. I am not Indian, so perhaps someone more knowledgeable will chime in on this. I believe he perceived he had to get married or otherwise risk shaming his family. But surely if he was a widower, no one would expect him to remarry anytime soon. This would take much pressure off of him and would therefore be his motive, if he did it.

 

[anglolawyer]

Oh that gay man. I see now, so sorry. Indian culture is at play here, I think. I am not Indian, so perhaps someone more knowledgeable will chime in on this. I believe he perceived he had to get married or otherwise risk shaming his family. But surely if he was a widower, no one would expect him to remarry anytime soon. This would take much pressure off of him and would therefore be his motive, if he did it.

Well I agree that's possible although it seems rather an extreme variant of Asian culture. TBH I don't actually know how arranged or pressured this marriage was. She certainly seems to have had reservations about it. I guess it becomes harder to pull out the more advanced the preparations for a hundred and fifty grand that takes 2-3 days and involves everybody going to India get. That must be a lot of pressure. Still, it's a point in the scales that she was the one calling things off and he was talking her round each time.

 

[anglolawyer]

Clever. But I'm afraid you'd have to bring a little bit more to the party before I took the time to repeat things you didn't seem to much understand the first time round.

For instance, has it dawned on you yet that one month's salary is indeed sufficient to procure a hitman?
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Right, so when was the figure agreed and when was Tongo going to be paid? He collected the R1000 for the hitmen at the hotel. Why didn't he get his (and Mbolombo's) money at the same time or sooner?

 

[lane99]

Wrong

Tongo (the taxi driver) didn't collect any money for the hitmen at the hotel. Perhaps you'd feel differently about this case if you weren't having such difficulty with even its most basic working assumptions/facts.

ALL sides of the debate agree that whatever monies Tongo received at the hotel were for HIS services, not the hitmen's. Though what his services had entailed, and exactly how much he received, is a matter of contention.

The payment for the hitmen was a money filled envelope which Shrien Dewani had secretly hidden in the taxi on the night of the murder. Which the hitmen then helped themselves to after carrying out the execution.
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[Charlie Wilkes]

Tongo (the taxi driver) didn't collect any money for the hitmen at the hotel. Perhaps you'd feel differently about this case if you weren't having such difficulty with even its most basic working assumptions/facts.

ALL sides of the debate agree that whatever monies Tongo received at the hotel were for HIS services, not the hitmen's. Though what his services had entailed, and exactly how much he received, is a matter of contention.

The payment for the hitmen was a money filled envelope which Shrien Dewani had secretly hidden in the taxi on the night of the murder. Which the hitmen then helped themselves to after carrying out the execution.
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If that was the setup, what would stop these guys from grabbing the money, stealing the woman's valuables, tossing her out of the cab, and disappearing into the night?

Why would anyone risk a murder rap when they can take the money anyway? It's not as though Dewani would go to the cops... "hey, I paid these guys to kill my wife and they ripped me off."

If someone has real evidence that Dewani instigated this plot, I would like to see it. So far, it's not there. In trying to make the case that he must be guilty because it's the only narrative that makes sense, you only draw more attention to the glaring problems with that narrative.

 

[anglolawyer]

Tongo (the taxi driver) didn't collect any money for the hitmen at the hotel. Perhaps you'd feel differently about this case if you weren't having such difficulty with even its most basic working assumptions/facts.

ALL sides of the debate agree that whatever monies Tongo received at the hotel were for HIS services, not the hitmen's. Though what his services had entailed, and exactly how much he received, is a matter of contention.

The payment for the hitmen was a money filled envelope which Shrien Dewani had secretly hidden in the taxi on the night of the murder. Which the hitmen then helped themselves to after carrying out the execution.
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I have reminded myself of the evidence. Let's check out what came out at Tongo's sentencing.

After some discussion with him I understood that he wanted someone, a woman, killed. He said he was willing to pay an amount of R15000.00

...

I informed Monde that there would be R15000.00 (fifteen thousand rand) for the job. Monde said that he wanted R5000.00 (five thousand) for organising the hitman and that we should pay the hitman R10000.00 (ten thousand rand).

...

For my assistance I would be paid R5000.00

...

I informed Qwabe and Mngeni that they would receive R15000.00.

...

Subsequent to the deceased's death I met with Shrien Dewani at the hotel on 16 November 2010 where I received R1000, 00 as payment for my role in orchestrating the murder, robbery and kidnapping of the deceased.

Notice anything funny? I see several things. Were the hitmen going to cost R10,000 or R15,000? Was the overall cost R15,000, R20,000 or R25,000? This is not a matter of signed contracts but basic practicality. Shrien actually had to organise the cash in local currency. Where's the evidence of him doing that? The jeweller does not seem to have been interrogated. Why not? He could tell us how much currency was changed.

Let's look at Mngeni's trial Mngeni did not dispute Qwabe's evidence that:

that the R15 000.00 that had been agreed on as payment would be left in the cubby hole of the vehicle;

Mbolombo gave evidence that after the crime

Qwabe was looking for Tongo at that stage and stated that Tongo still owed him an amount of R5 000,00, because they had agreed that they would be paid R15 000,00 yet they were only paid R10 000,00

Qwabe gave evidence:

Tongo asked him how much will it be to do this, whereupon he conferred with the accused who suggested an amount of R15 000,00.

Did you notice something odd there? The amount that Shrien had independently agreed with Tongo was the same amount that Mngeni supposedly suggested! Coincidence? Sticking with Qwabe's evidence we get this after the crime:

Thereafter they counted the money and found it was only R10,000,00 and not R15 000,00. The accused also had R4 000,00.

R15,000 minus R14,000 = R1,000! But that's the same amount that Tongo collected from Shrien! Some coincidence! And why was Qwabe looking for R5,000 when they were only R1,000 short?

And how did Tongo, Mbolombo and the others react to being short-changed? Everyone was out of pocket. Well, except that the two killers were over paid if the deal was R10,000 (as advised by Mbolombo) but underpaid if it was R15,000. When was Mbolombo going to be paid? What did Tongo do when he found he was R4,000 (and one taxi) short? Er, nothing seems to be the answer.

And you believe this? And nothing about the jewellery that was no part of the deal? How long do you think these guys will last in cross?

Anyway, you seem to be right that Tongo claims he was picking up his fee (but wrong to imply there is an issue about the amount of the payment - I highlighted the part of your post where you do that). I had misremembered the R1,000 was the balancing sum (15-14) but the problems don't end if it is reclassified as Tongo's payment. Do you think Tongo was upset at getting only R1,000 for a murder? And Mbolombo nothing?

I'll tell you what I think the deal was. It was Tongo's idea. The hijackers would get R10,000 (plus cash in wallet) but everything else would be returned to Tongo: watches, jewellery, phones and he would retain the proceeds, paying something to Mbololmbo, But it was to be a robbery only, not a murder. Killing her changed everything. Mbololmbo was doubtless happy not to see his money as he hadn't bargained on anything the cops might actually look into. Tongo, the arch criminal mastermind, is just a hapless moron.

 

[lane99]

YMMV

...to make the case that he must be guilty because it's the only narrative that makes sense, you only draw more attention to the glaring problems with that narrative.

There are no glaring problems with the narrative- based on the presumptive evidence which is known to this point- which concludes that Shrien Dewani is guilty. The only glaring problems reside within any narrative which attempts to deny his guilt.
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[Suffolk Skeptic]

Dewani speaks

Here is a clip from the Sun interview when Dewani first returned to the UK. I've already remarked about his different accounts of how he left the car, but here is one of them straight from the horse's mouth.

I'm not sure how difficult it is to push a grown man out of a car window if he is resisting. Especially as I assume that only one could do the pushing.

 

[anglolawyer]

Dewani speaks

Here is a clip from the Sun interview when Dewani first returned to the UK. I've already remarked about his different accounts of how he left the car, but here is one of them straight from the horse's mouth.

I'm not sure how difficult it is to push a grown man out of a car window if he is resisting. Especially as I assume that only one could do the pushing.

Why make that up?

IIRC Katy_did actually tried climbing out a car window to see how easy it was and ... she found it pretty easy. What's his other account and where and when did he give it?

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

Why make that up?

IIRC Katy_did actually tried climbing out a car window to see how easy it was and ... she found it pretty easy. What's his other account and where and when did he give it?

Yeah, I'd imagine willingly climbing out of a window might be a tad easier than being forcibly pushed out by one man in the back seat in between or maybe even on the other side of my wife who I was clinging onto. But if you think the two scenarios are analogous please describe.

Another account is contained within his statement to the police, which I have already posted in an earlier exchange.

 

[anglolawyer]

Yeah, I'd imagine willingly climbing out of a window might be a tad easier than being forcibly pushed out by one man in the back seat in between or maybe even on the other side of my wife who I was clinging onto. But if you think the two scenarios are analogous please describe.

Another account is contained within his statement to the police, which I have already posted in an earlier exchange.

I am sorry if I failed to note the earlier post. What I imagine from the Sun interview is that when he says he resisted, he put up some, but not too much, resistance. I don't think it would be at all easy to force a violently resulting, fully-grown man out through a car window. In fact I think it would be near impossible. But his statement is not clear about how he was resisting. What did he say to the cops that was different?

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

The driver stopped the car and I asked where they are going to leave Anni. The one male said that they will leave Anni at the police station.

The one male pulled me out of the car. I tried to pull Anni with me but the other male held her arm. The car then sped off.

I think the two accounts differ markedly.

 

[anglolawyer]

I think the two accounts differ markedly.

They are easily reconciled IMO and we weren't there when the police took down what I think is a written version. I would like to know whether that was from a transcript or from question and answer. It makes a difference. I believe it was the latter (I vaguely recall seeing this statement).

SS let me ask you something else. Why do you think the hit men dropped off Tongo first and then Shrien later? And what was Shrien's explanation going to be for why they killed her but not him too? Isn't that a problem for the pro-guilt theory, that these murderers left a living witness (two in fact) who could identify them?

 

[anglolawyer]

The Daily Mail reports the prosecution will call the German Meister to prove Dewani is gay, but ....

Dewani, a care home owner, has always denied ordering the killing of Anni. He has always denied being gay and says he can prove he was elsewhere on the dates Leisser said they met.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

The Daily Mail reports the prosecution will call the German Meister to prove Dewani is gay, but ....

Even if they could prove Dewani had a sexual encounter with this guy, that does nothing to prove the murder plot as laid out by the prosecutor.

This reminds me of the Kelly Michaels case in New Jersey. Among the wild stories extracted from the toddlers was one in which Michaels spread peanut butter on their naked bodies.

Ergo, a jar of peanut butter found in the school lunchroom became evidence at the trial.

And she was convicted, of course, just as Dewani will be. Mustn't disappoint the baying mob...

 

[anglolawyer]

Even if they could prove Dewani had a sexual encounter with this guy, that does nothing to prove the murder plot as laid out by the prosecutor.

This reminds me of the Kelly Michaels case in New Jersey. Among the wild stories extracted from the toddlers was one in which Michaels spread peanut butter on their naked bodies.

Ergo, a jar of peanut butter found in the school lunchroom became evidence at the trial.

And she was convicted, of course, just as Dewani will be. Mustn't disappoint the baying mob...

I don't see Tongo standing up to cross examination and without him there is nothing. Still, maybe nothing will be enough. It's not as if there aren't precedents. But I am expecting acquittal in this case for this reason - that Tongo will be shown to be lying.