Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[angrysoba]

I certainly hope they're smart enough to hold the rebels west of Kiev at least. That way they should be able to hold them accountable for either espionage or treason, depending on their nationality.

McHrozni

If you watch this video you will see that the majority of people are regular citizens who have taken over some of the infrastructure and they are not keen on central government troops.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27045282

Are you suggesting they all be arrested and charged with treason? That's going to involve an awful lot of trials.

The reporter then finds some of the "little green men" who apparently are said to be Russian spetsnaz, and when he asks them if they are Russian, he says "We are all Russian", but it turns out that he means culturally Russian as he has a Ukrainian ID card. Yes, it could be fake, of course. But on the other hand another theory is that many of these people are Yanukovych's security forces who have fled Kiev and regrouped in East Ukraine maybe with or without Russian direction.

In other words, as ever things don't seem to be as simple as you and others always make it sound.

 

[jimbob]

And it seems Russia the rogue state lead by the desperate despot putin is busy building up their forces on Ukraine's border....

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/10/satellite-images-russian-military-ukraine-border

If you watch this video you will see that the majority of people are regular citizens who have taken over some of the infrastructure and they are not keen on central government troops.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27045282

Are you suggesting they all be arrested and charged with treason? That's going to involve an awful lot of trials.

The reporter then finds some of the "little green men" who apparently are said to be Russian spetsnaz, and when he asks them if they are Russian, he says "We are all Russian", but it turns out that he means culturally Russian as he has a Ukrainian ID card. Yes, it could be fake, of course. But on the other hand another theory is that many of these people are Yanukovych's security forces who have fled Kiev and regrouped in East Ukraine maybe with or without Russian direction.

In other words, as ever things don't seem to be as simple as you and others always make it sound.

There were Little Green Men in Crimea http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26532154

The trajectory in Eastern Ukraine was very similar to that in Crimea.

 

[angrysoba]

There were Little Green Men in Crimea http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26532154

The trajectory in Eastern Ukraine was very similar to that in Crimea.

I'm not saying that there are no Russian soldiers in East Ukraine as there certainly were in Crimea. I am saying that the BBC reporter discovered the ones he talked to had Ukrainian ID.

 

[eirik]

Hm, I wonder if Yanukovych said the same thing at one point.

Eirik, who's the house Fascist you refer to? One of the people who supports the Wolfsangel guys, right?

Sorry, house fascists, plural. Hard to keep up.

 

[angrysoba]

Apologies if most of this is just reposting of things that everyone else here is aware of. I am really just catching up with the news in Ukraine and haven't been able to see any video images at all for about a week.

But this one was posted a couple of days ago, before the "anti-terrorist action", which shows a journalist being attacked by a pro-Russian mob (I know someone here has protested against the use of the word "mob" for pro-Russian Ukrainians, but I am using it because these are violent thugs roughing up a journalist, so I think it is apt in their case). Yet he also seems unsure if the people who took over the Slavyansk police station were Russian special forces.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27030365

Again what is clear is that the people left in charge here are regular citizens who clearly don't like the new government in Kiev to the extent that they were filling Molotov cocktails, and preparing to potentially meet Ukrainian government troops with force.

One of the people on that video, calling for "Tovarish Putin" I have seen on a Guardian video too.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/apr/13/pro-russians-block-slaviansk-roads-video

I wonder if those little green men with the St. George's ribbons can be identified by any Ukrainian military records or not.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/vi...n-ukraine-protesters-slaviansk-deadline-video

Could someone fill us in on this claim by Con Coughlin:

Now the Russian president is at it again, this time trying to persuade a sceptical President Obama that there are no Russian soldiers or spies involved in stirring up trouble in eastern Ukraine, when all the evidence points to the contrary – including the arrest by the Ukrainian authorities of dozens of Russian military officers who have been caught red-handed trying to incite violence.
As a former senior officer in the KGB, telling barefaced lies must now be ingrained in Mr Putin's DNA. But for the West, which is desperately trying to avoid an open confrontation with Moscow over the crisis, this presents enormous difficulties.

Not his Lamarckian claim that telling lies alters your DNA, but the one about the Ukrainian authorities arresting dozens of Russian military officers.

 

[McHrozni]

If you watch this video you will see that the majority of people are regular citizens who have taken over some of the infrastructure and they are not keen on central government troops.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27045282

Are you suggesting they all be arrested and charged with treason? That's going to involve an awful lot of trials.

The reporter then finds some of the "little green men" who apparently are said to be Russian spetsnaz, and when he asks them if they are Russian, he says "We are all Russian", but it turns out that he means culturally Russian as he has a Ukrainian ID card. Yes, it could be fake, of course. But on the other hand another theory is that many of these people are Yanukovych's security forces who have fled Kiev and regrouped in East Ukraine maybe with or without Russian direction.

In other words, as ever things don't seem to be as simple as you and others always make it sound.

I can't watch the video now, but the dilemma seems to be as to what is their nationality. I have covered that part - if they're Russian nationals they're spies (no doubts there), if Ukrainian they may be traitors. Trying to get a part of your country to be placed in another country with the force of arms is one of the clearest examples of treason I know of. They may be just gullable fools, some of them certainly are if they believe Ukrainians are coming to destroy their lives or something.

And yes, I think they should all stand trial. Taking over a government building is a persecutable offence, taking hostages is inexcusable in any situation. It would be many trials - good observation there, not much else can be said.

McHrozni

 

[angrysoba]

I can't watch the video now, but the dilemma seems to be as to what is their nationality. I have covered that part - if they're Russian nationals they're spies (no doubts there), if Ukrainian they may be traitors. Trying to get a part of your country to be placed in another country with the force of arms is one of the clearest examples of treason I know of. They may be just gullable fools, some of them certainly are if they believe Ukrainians are coming to destroy their lives or something.

And yes, I think they should all stand trial. Taking over a government building is a persecutable offence, taking hostages is inexcusable in any situation. It would be many trials - good observation there, not much else can be said.

McHrozni

Actually, most of them don't seem to be arguing to become part of another country but rather autonomy. And they have put up anti-Nazi flags because no doubt they see the current government (rightly or wrongly) as controlled by Nazis.

Now they may be gullible indeed to believe Putin's rhetoric, but the downgrading of their language was a real thing done by the current government, which presumably even you would agree was an idiotic thing to do by Kiev.

As for hostages taken, could you tell me how many people approximately are being held hostage. I tried to Google this and what I found was this story from February of protesters storming government buildings in Lutsk and Lviv and capturing the governor:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26280569

Are these prosecutable (or even persecutable, if you prefer) offences?

In my opinion, many of these protests in the East may fizzle out if it turns out that they are not particularly popular. Probably the worst thing the Kiev government could do is listen to your counsel and go in blazing, and heavy-handed and round up the citizenry and put them all on trial.

 

[McHrozni]

Actually, most of them don't seem to be arguing to become part of another country but rather autonomy. And they have put up anti-Nazi flags because no doubt they see the current government (rightly or wrongly) as controlled by Nazis.

That makes them gullable fools, if they're citizens of Ukraine and wish to remain such. I wouldn't expect them to be found guilty of anything in a trial, other than maybe damaging public property and such - unimportant enough to warrant no more than a slap on the wrist, if that much. That said, the gullable fools are led by someone highly organized, who probably has very different ideas about what should happen there.

Are these prosecutable (or even persecutable, if you prefer) offences?

I meant prosecutable, sorry. Some of what has happened is quite prosecutable - especially if those involved are Russian citizens, which is a possibility. If they're Ukrainian citizens, it needs to be determined what their goals are and what their methods were. Not all need to be found guilty of treason, although I strongly suspect there are clear-cut cases of actual traitors (not in the loaded sense) among them. All involved should be investigated for said offenses though.

In my opinion, many of these protests in the East may fizzle out if it turns out that they are not particularly popular. Probably the worst thing the Kiev government could do is listen to your counsel and go in blazing, and heavy-handed and round up the citizenry and put them all on trial.

The reports are heavily conflicting, possibly because the uprising in the East is different in different cities. I certainly don't advocate going in, guns blazin in all cases, but since some government buildings undoubtedly were taken over by organized thugs, and because some of them have declared to be subjects of Ukraine no longer, those need to be taken care of.

There is no need to apply the same solution to different problems taking place at the same time.

McHrozni

 

[Caustic Logic]

Sorry, house fascists, plural. Hard to keep up.

Hey, I can not name names too. Some people here care about the integrity and meaning of language. One at least does not. That one is, I wouldn't say a Fascist (I just don't know) but at least an unwitting supporter of Fascism and its rise in West Ukraine. And I'll note that a person 's wittingness is partly of their own making - ignorance like this has to be at least partly of the willful sort.

But it's just funny to see how, still, you know Fascism is something bad. And so you use it as an insult for people who are pretty much the opposite of Fascist in their thinking. SOme people do this because of the clever inversion - those who think they're anti-Fascist are actually Fascists! (recalls JBS line that since Nazi called themselves National Socialists, left-wing socialism was the whole problem with both sides in WWII) But some things - like both these arguments - are just too "clever" to be true.

And in case you fall back on that, making it small f fascism doesn't much change the stupidity of your statements.

 

[uke2se]

In fact, this is a rather strange point. The Berkut themselves are Ukrainian security forces and many of them and other police were also held hostage by armed protesters and beaten. This is simply a fact.

Besides, some people such as this Guardian columnist does see much of this as equivalent as many of the protesters in the East seem to have genuine grievances. To dismiss them all as Putinista puppets seems to be the same thing as calling the Euro-Maidan protesters treasonous putchists (as Childlike Empress is fond of calling them) or fascists (when we certainly know that Banderists were among the protesters and many of them were extremely violent thugs). Certainly a lot of the videos on the Guardian showed regular people who happen to be ethic Russians voicing disapproval of some of the new Ukrainian government policies such as the ridiculously counterproductive move of downgrading the Russian language:



http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/15/maidan-anti-maidan-ukraine-situation-nuance



Actually, I think a case can easily be made that not only did Stalin truly believe himself to be a Leftist (and to be honest, using the words "progressive values" is moving the goalposts because Dcdrac said "a true left winger", not the more nebulous "true progressive"), but his supporters had impeccable Leftist credentials. You obviously underestimate the level of support that Stalin had among nearly all of the European left, such as the Fabians and George Bernard Shaw and Jean-Paul Sartre were supporters of Stalin (some of them were short-lived supporters, such as Bertrand Russell and H.G Wells to be sure).



I simply hope it does not turn into civil war.

I disagree that this is equivalent. What is missing is context.

Euro-Maidan started as unarmed protests. They were cracked down upon by armed government forces, and after a while, the protesters started to arm themselves.

Further, Euro-Maidan wanted Yanukovych out. They did not want parts of the country to separate and join another country.

The thugs in the Eastern Ukraine started by arming themselves and occupying government buildings, taking hostages. They did pretty much exactly what the thugs in Crimea did.

So, we have a difference in method and we have a difference in expected outcome. There's no equivalence.

 

[Childlike Empress]

In my opinion, many of these protests in the East may fizzle out if it turns out that they are not particularly popular. Probably the worst thing the Kiev government could do is listen to your counsel and go in blazing, and heavy-handed and round up the citizenry and put them all on trial.

Fizzle out? The putschists just sent the army after them, do you think the average citizen approves of that? It may have been a minority but that's over now. And the phenomenon of the last days/week continues: What arrives in the east are disloyal reservists who are happy to hand over their equipment - some even begging for food! SPIEGEL reports that it's unclear if it's one group or two groups of six tanks with personal that did just that. From Sloviansk:


The thing at the airfield yesterday was thirty people landing with helicopters, including the very just-appointed chief of the whole "anti-terror" operation General Krutov, who after "clearing" the place got into physical trouble trying to talk to the locals, who - in their hundreds - at one point decided to throw rocks at them.

That was the crème de la crème of putschist loyalist forces, apparently.

 

[NoahFence]

And on and on it goes ...

For those interested in Ukraine, here's another read-worthy travel report.

After that moronic graphic you posted, remind me again why anyone should think about taking anything you say seriously?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Armoured vehicles with Russian flags in Ukraine, apparently. Also more Ukrainian forces defecting to Russia.

http://translate.google.no/translat...ke-soldater-bytter-side-1.11670543&edit-text=

 

[carlitos]

Armoured vehicles with Russian flags in Ukraine, apparently. Also more Ukrainian forces defecting to Russia.

http://translate.google.no/translat...ke-soldater-bytter-side-1.11670543&edit-text=

That link doesn't work for me; it just hangs with the titles and no article.

Here are a few:

Ukraine crisis: Armoured vehicle 'rebranded' as Russian

Ukraine crisis: Military column 'seized' in Kramatorsk

In Donetsk, six armored vehicles sent into the nearby city of Kramatorsk in the morning later showed up carrying Russian flags in Slaviansk.

 

[Childlike Empress]

After that moronic graphic you posted, remind me again why anyone should think about taking anything you say seriously?

I don't think I ever reminded you about why you should take me seriously before. Thing is that I don't write for kittens who refuse to do their homework even in much more trivial areas. You're just not my target audience, so feel free to have a giggle.

 

[angrysoba]

The armed men, meanwhile, made little secret of the fact they took orders from Moscow. Many of them appeared to be Russian troops from Crimea. Asked where he had come from, one told the Guardian: "Simferopol." How were things in Crimea? "Zamechatelna," he said in Russian – splendid. He added: "The old ladies are happy. Because of Russia their pensions have doubled." Had he served in the Ukrainian army and perhaps swapped sides? "No, I'm Russian," he replied.

Within minutes, the captured APCs had become the town's newest, most extraordinary tourist attraction. Teenage girls posed coquettishly with the men in balaclavas. Small children lined up too. Someone put a cuddly toy next to a gun barrel. "We were very afraid. Now we are reassured. The tanks are here to protect us," Olga Yuriyevna said. She added: "I'm Russian-speaking. We have relatives in Russia. My husband fought in the Afghan war."

Some people, though, were lacking in enthusiasm. Outside the town hall one pensioner, Alexander Ivanovich, said: "I'm Ukrainian. This should be Ukrainian territory." Gesturing at the faceless gunmen outside the entrance, he said: "I'm suspicious of them." The soldiers had piled sandbags in front of windows, and created sniper positions on the roof. They had also, apparently, ripped down the building's blue-and-yellow trident, a symbol of Ukrainian statehood. A Russian and Donetsk republic flag flew from the roof. The impression was one of calm and vertical order.

Link

 

[Childlike Empress]

Author: Luke Harding. One of their hardcore propagandists. Don't believe a word. Next they fly in Martin Chulov.

All these types, Robert Engel, Luke Harding, for SPIEGEL Raniah Salloum, have a terrible track record in Syria or (as Harding) elsewhere. Eli Lake is very busy at the Daily Beast as well. Their recyclement speaks for the small group of people willing to do such an ugly job.

I know you aren't yet ready to believe it, angrysoba, but the most ridiculous foreign policy propaganda happens in outlets like the Guardian, SPIEGEL, and NPR, NYT, WaPo for the Yankistanis. Just an advice to keep your eyes open.

 

[jimbob]

Author: Luke Harding. One of their hardcore propagandists. Don't believe a word. Next they fly in Martin Chulov.

All these types, Robert Engel, Luke Harding, for SPIEGEL Raniah Salloum, have a terrible track record in Syria or (as Harding) elsewhere. Eli Lake is very busy at the Daily Beast as well. Their recyclement speaks for the small group of people willing to do such an ugly job.

I know you aren't yet ready to believe it, angrysoba, but the most ridiculous foreign policy propaganda happens in outlets like the Guardian, SPIEGEL, and NPR, NYT, WaPo for the Yankistanis. Just an advice to keep your eyes open.

Many of those news outlets you have named have broken stories that are not exactly helpful to their governments' foreign policies. Russia Today doesn't have that track record of independence.

 

[uke2se]

Link

So I suppose Russian involvement is becoming clearer and clearer. This is no longer a domestic insurgency. This is an invasion.

 

[Dcdrac]

So I suppose Russian involvement is becoming clearer and clearer. This is no longer a domestic insurgency. This is an invasion.

I doubt anyone in contact with Planet Earth seriously doubts this fact.