Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[angrysoba]

I'd hope the Ukrainian government forces let the insurgents fire first, but who can know in a situation like this? Kiev really needs to act tough, as the insurgents aren't willing to negotiate. If Kiev can manage to find a way to force them out of the buildings without bloodshed, they will have robbed Putin of his invasion excuse. That's not to say he won't just invade anyway though.

Hmmm...I wonder if Yanukovych said the same thing at some point.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Richard Engel, isn't that the clown who faked his own abduction in Syria?

You didn't tell me that Ruslana was on US tour when you saw her on MSMBS, btw. How do I know now? I follow UCMC on twitter now and she gave a report when she was back yesterday ...

I posted the chart - and didn't "permit" nitpicking the general picture - to show those who just post here for Putin bashing that they treat on thin ice, given the type of mass-murdering serial-lying war criminals they implicitly defend. Wake me up when Putin starts ordering the murder of 16 year old Russian citizens without even a Kangaroo court and because of what their father said.

That's totally evil, Skeptic Ginger, and you and your lukewarm "leftist" friends make a total fool of yourself by cowering behind searching for an "unbiased" view that allows you to get away without being accused by braindead right-wingers of being "unpatriotic". Your greatest fear, right? It's disgraceful. Read the Vltchek article I posted above and stop being part of the problem.

:violin:

 

[MattusMaximus]

[imgw=700]http://i.imgur.com/OrS10Ux.jpg[/imgw]

Wow, that's a good one! Comrade Putin must really be glad you're on his side

ETA: Would "overthrown governments" include or not include Crimea?

 

[MattusMaximus]

Well, I certainly hope we don't end up with the new Ukrainian government shooting its own people like the previous Ukrainian government did.

This does not look good at all.

Nope. An outright shooting war seems almost inevitable now. Of course, if it comes to blows, the Ukrainians will lose to the clearly superior Russian army; however, someone should tell Comrade Putin that taking Ukraine isn't the same as holding Ukraine. And you had better believe that this will put more spine into NATO and the EU to expand its reach even more.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Nope. An outright shooting war seems almost inevitable now. Of course, if it comes to blows, the Ukrainians will lose to the clearly superior Russian army; however, someone should tell Comrade Putin that taking Ukraine isn't the same as holding Ukraine. And you had better believe that this will put more spine into NATO and the EU to expand its reach even more.

You lot watch too many bad Hollywood movies. And fail to recognize the "news" narratives as mostly fiction. Don't let it get too close to you.

Fresh from RT, here's a must-watch for political adults - although I'm not sure if I can share this American hero's optimism completely. I'm afraid he underestimates the psychotic nature of "Western" leadership, even if most of the saber rattling is of course just for frightening the masses and extracting a Dollar or Euro (or Rubel for that matter) more for the MIC out of our pockets. But I agree with his demand to fire the wig, of course.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Hmmm...I wonder if Yanukovych said the same thing at some point.

Funny, isn't it?

Ukraine: EU Ashton Who Then Called For "Dialog", Now Calls For "Authority Of The State"

How Does The NPR Distinguish "Protesters" From "Mobs"?

 

[angrysoba]

Nope. An outright shooting war seems almost inevitable now. Of course, if it comes to blows, the Ukrainians will lose to the clearly superior Russian army; however, someone should tell Comrade Putin that taking Ukraine isn't the same as holding Ukraine. And you had better believe that this will put more spine into NATO and the EU to expand its reach even more.

Some shooting may well happen, but I don't know what Putin would gain from invading East Ukraine.

The trouble that he may have is if ethnic Russians take it upon themselves to demand independence and the Ukrainian central government crushes the rebellion. Then Putin may well be called upon to protect his kinfolk.

As for holding Ukraine not being the same as taking Ukraine, this is no doubt true, and I doubt Putin would even try to take the whole country. However, a better strategy for him would be to let Eastern Ukraine stay discontent and to leave it as a festering problem for Kiev.

There were confident predictions not long ago that Crimea would be a real pain for Putin to hold, but clearly Ukraine would have far more trouble with the peninsula if it ever got Crimea back.

 

[Darth Rotor]

War is creeping closer, it seems. Swedish national radio reports that Ukrainian troops are preparing to assault the occupied buildings after their ultimatum ended this morning. Russia continues to blame everyone but themselves in the UN, and the EU is preparing increased sanctions against Russian energy interests, the Swedish foreign minister stating that the EU has tried to get a de-escalation of the crisis, but Russia has kept on escalating.

The willy waving display is of marginal entertainment value. The utterly transparent attempt to add fuel to such political fires as are there in Ukraine lately isn't even dignified with an attempt at a fig leaf.

An outright shooting war seems almost inevitable now. Of course, if it comes to blows, the Ukrainians will lose to the clearly superior Russian army; however, someone should tell Comrade Putin that taking Ukraine isn't the same as holding Ukraine. And you had better believe that this will put more spine into NATO and the EU to expand its reach even more.

Trying to figure out how folks will walk back from the edge .. and not seeing much at the moment. The only good sign I have is that as things got really tense over Syria, a way was found to defuse it. Maybe a few people in a few capitals are looking for a way to bring that about, and are getting no press because they have the sense to Shut The **** Up about what they are doing until they can work a deal.

Low odds, but it's within the realm of the possible.

In the propaganda war between Putin and the west, the complexities of Ukraine, and its people's interests, are ignored

That's what happens when you have no leverage, but are only a pawn in the game. I'd like to see more journalists from as many nations as possible take a riff off of this lead, and get that message out. Ukraine is much more than just a pawn in the game. That message needs to be sold better.

 

[uke2se]

Hmmm...I wonder if Yanukovych said the same thing at some point.

This isn't equivalent. The Euro-Maidan did not start out as armed occupiers of government institutions. They did arm themselves after the Berkut showed no restraint against unarmed people.

In this case, we have heavily armed personnel taking police hostages.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

er) more for the MIC out of our pockets. But I agree with his demand to fire thYou lot watch too many bad Hollywood movies. And fail to recognize the "news" narratives as mostly fiction. Don't let it get too close to you.

Fresh from RT, here's a must-watch for political adults

There goes my irony meter.

 

[angrysoba]

This isn't equivalent. The Euro-Maidan did not start out as armed occupiers of government institutions. They did arm themselves after the Berkut showed no restraint against unarmed people.

In this case, we have heavily armed personnel taking police hostages.

Well, it looks like whatever response Kiev promised is now underway:

The acting President of Ukraine, Olexander Turchynov, has announced the start of an "anti-terrorist operation" against pro-Russian separatists.

The operation began in the "north of Donetsk Region", he told parliament, and was being conducted "stage by stage, in a responsible... manner".

Ukrainian armoured vehicles could be seen massing on Monday as separatist militants braced for an attack.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27035196

 

[Childlike Empress]

Ukrainian sources informed Russia about an incognito visit of CIA-director Brennan to Kiev. Lavrov asked for clarification. Psaki:

QUESTION: Have you provided him with clarifications?

MS. PSAKI: I believe that the CIA has answered this, but let me just reiterate what they’ve said. We know that the CIA does not normally comment on the director’s travel. Given the extraordinary circumstances in this case and the false claims being leveled by the Russians at the CIA, however, we can confirm the director was in Kyiv this weekend as part of a trip to Europe. As you all know, senior-level visits of intelligence officials are a standard means of fostering a mutually beneficial security cooperation. That’s something we do with Russia, and certainly it’s not out of the norm we would do it with Ukraine.

There were some claims that Director Brennan encouraged Ukrainian authorities to conduct tactical operations inside Ukraine. Those are completely false. I believe that all has been conveyed, but those are the facts of the matter.

Nothing to see here, folks. That hag really fits into the horror cabinet, remember when she tried to put her spin on the Nuland/Pyatt leak?

Apparently this time the putschists found someone who is willing to shoot - something seems to go on at the airport in Kramatorsk.

 

[trustbutverify]

No True Left-winger? I think that Stalin could be said to have been very Left-wing and he was even worse than Putin by a few orders of magnitude. It didn't stop Left-wingers lining up to support him which they did in droves, and in fact a few dags cling on to Uncle Joe even now.

There's a difference between those who claim to stand for progressive values, and those who actually do. Stalinists fall into the former category.

 

[McHrozni]

Well, it looks like whatever response Kiev promised is now underway:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27035196

I certainly hope they're smart enough to hold the rebels west of Kiev at least. That way they should be able to hold them accountable for either espionage or treason, depending on their nationality.

McHrozni

 

[angrysoba]

This isn't equivalent. The Euro-Maidan did not start out as armed occupiers of government institutions. They did arm themselves after the Berkut showed no restraint against unarmed people.

In this case, we have heavily armed personnel taking police hostages.

In fact, this is a rather strange point. The Berkut themselves are Ukrainian security forces and many of them and other police were also held hostage by armed protesters and beaten. This is simply a fact.

Besides, some people such as this Guardian columnist does see much of this as equivalent as many of the protesters in the East seem to have genuine grievances. To dismiss them all as Putinista puppets seems to be the same thing as calling the Euro-Maidan protesters treasonous putchists (as Childlike Empress is fond of calling them) or fascists (when we certainly know that Banderists were among the protesters and many of them were extremely violent thugs). Certainly a lot of the videos on the Guardian showed regular people who happen to be ethic Russians voicing disapproval of some of the new Ukrainian government policies such as the ridiculously counterproductive move of downgrading the Russian language:

The Maidan movement has never had majority support in eastern and southern regions in Ukraine. After it succeeded in toppling the government, many people were scared and outraged with the exaggerated pictures they saw on television of violent clashes in Kiev, armed paramilitary groups including many far right elements controlling the streets, attacks on Lenin's monuments, and the far right Svoboda party included into the new government. Many people in the east call it the "Kiev junta" and disapprove of its actions.

Of course, there is a large degree of irrational fear driving the protesters, especially concerning the overstated problem of Russian language discrimination. But it would be hypocritical to employ double standards. Just as Maidan was not a "revolution", anti-Maidan is not a "counter-revolution" either. Maidan was called a "revolution of dignity" but people in eastern Ukraine are also proudly talking about their dignity, regional identity, historical memory, Soviet heroes and language.

The anti-Maidans in the east are no more irrational than Maidan protesters who were hoping for the European dream but gained (quite expectedly) a neoliberal government, IMF-required austerity measures and increasing prices. In the eastern Ukrainian protests, "Russia" – with its higher wages and pensions – plays the same role of utopian aspiration as "Europe" played for the Maidan protesters. The economic situation in Ukraine continues to deteriorate and the national currency has lost more than 50% of its value in two months, so the protesters in the Donetsk region are talking more about the socio-economic problems the Ukrainian state was not able to solve for 23 years: collapsed enterprises, unemployment and low wages. They demand nationalisation and decent rewards for their labour.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/15/maidan-anti-maidan-ukraine-situation-nuance

There's a difference between those who claim to stand for progressive values, and those who actually do. Stalinists fall into the former category.

Actually, I think a case can easily be made that not only did Stalin truly believe himself to be a Leftist (and to be honest, using the words "progressive values" is moving the goalposts because Dcdrac said "a true left winger", not the more nebulous "true progressive"), but his supporters had impeccable Leftist credentials. You obviously underestimate the level of support that Stalin had among nearly all of the European left, such as the Fabians and George Bernard Shaw and Jean-Paul Sartre were supporters of Stalin (some of them were short-lived supporters, such as Bertrand Russell and H.G Wells to be sure).

I certainly hope they're smart enough to hold the rebels west of Kiev at least. That way they should be able to hold them accountable for either espionage or treason, depending on their nationality.

McHrozni

I simply hope it does not turn into civil war.

 

[Childlike Empress]

angrysoba, I'm not calling the protesters "putschists" but the people running the current regime.

 

[Dcdrac]

The government of the Ukraine is holding elections in May, that is if the Russians do not succeed in wrecking the country by then.

remember the old president fled, the people showed they did not want him and the Ukranian Parliament ousted him there was no putsch.

 

[eirik]

Don't confuse the house fascist with facts. It gets angry. Er.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Oh, btw: NATO's Pet Nazis Savage Ukrainian Presidential Candidate

Ukrainian presidential candidate Oleg Tsarev was savagely beaten outside a TV studio after an interview for the Ukrainian talk show, 'Svoboda Slova.’ The studio was apparently surrounded by armed men in masks earlier, preventing Tsarev from leaving after the interview. When he did finally emerge, masked men with Svoboda Neo-Nazi "Wolfsangel" armbands began throwing objects at, choking, and physically beating Tsarev. [...]

He's out of critical condition now. Dobkin was also beaten up (again) but was able to escape before it became serious.

Meanwhile the Gas Princess, who was also at that TV show, is recruiting for her own militia.

 

[Caustic Logic]

The acting President of Ukraine, Olexander Turchynov, has announced the start of an "anti-terrorist operation" ...

Hm, I wonder if Yanukovych said the same thing at one point.

Eirik, who's the house Fascist you refer to? One of the people who supports the Wolfsangel guys, right?