Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

Anode,

The alcohol values we do have might be the result of a little bit of microbial growth. We need the bladder or vitreous alcohol levels for greater confidence, and there is no evidence that these data were gathered. There are citations in previous threads.

Yes and Lalli and the other lab that confirmed it could have made all kinds of errors like missing some chyme in her intestines.

They were trying to make her a saint and heavy drinking wasn't cool. The original samples showed big BAC but those were ruled contaminated. If alcohol in her system was a clear indication of the kids' innocence we'd be hearing about that poorly handled sample.

There is no doubt that pilots lost for days in tropical climes will have alcohol produced by their own system but it was cool that night and under those conditions the body doesn't produce much if any alcohol in that short of a time frame.

 

[Grinder]

Sophie on TO Dinner - PRESIDENT - He needs or we can move forward?
WITNESS - No, I'm fine.
PROSECUTOR - Listen, then at what time it reminds you
finished eating ?
WITNESS - I do not remember because it took us quite a lot ' of
time because we were relaxed , and ate with
calm .
PROSECUTOR - What you ate if you remember. he
I think that a square ? I do not know whether he said.
PRESIDENT - Yes, yes .
PROSECUTOR - The said already . How long before the
start you have finished eating roughly ?
HEADS - Maybe an hour?
PROSECUTOR - What time did you go away and she
Meredith ?
WITNESS - I'd say it was eight and three quarters.

 

[Desert Fox]

Yes and Lalli and the other lab that confirmed it could have made all kinds of errors like missing some chyme in her intestines.

They were trying to make her a saint and heavy drinking wasn't cool. The original samples showed big BAC but those were ruled contaminated. If alcohol in her system was a clear indication of the kids' innocence we'd be hearing about that poorly handled sample.
There is no doubt that pilots lost for days in tropical climes will have alcohol produced by their own system but it was cool that night and under those conditions the body doesn't produce much if any alcohol in that short of a time frame.

Treating her as a young woman just on her own for the first time and that she drank a bit much I don't think would have actually changed the case much. Because you drink too much does not mean that you deserve to be raped and murdered.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Do people metabolize alcohol at the same rate?

Samir Zakhari, Ph.D., is director, Division of Metabolism and Health Effects, National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, Bethesda, Maryland, wrote, "BAC is influenced by environmental factors (such as the rate of alcohol drinking, the presence of food in the stomach, and the type of alcoholic beverage) and genetic factors (variations in the principal alcohol-metabolizing enzymes alcohol dehydrogenase [ADH] and aldehyde dehydrogenase [ALDH2]). The alcohol elimination rate varies widely (i.e., three-fold) among individuals and is influenced by factors such as chronic alcohol consumption, diet, age, smoking, and time of day (Bennion and Li 1976; Kopun and Propping 1977)." link

IMO we would have to know which genetic variants of alcohol dehydrogenase Meredith had to say anything more.

 

[sunmaster14]

Treating her as a young woman just on her own for the first time and that she drank a bit much I don't think would have actually changed the case much. Because you drink too much does not mean that you deserve to be raped and murdered.

But the narrative about a coerced Satanic orgy did depend to some extent on Meredith being viewed as a saint in the eyes of Knox et al. The (she-) devil wouldn't waste her time trying to corrupt a sinner.

 

[Bill Williams]

Treating her as a young woman just on her own for the first time and that she drank a bit much I don't think would have actually changed the case much. Because you drink too much does not mean that you deserve to be raped and murdered.

But the narrative about a coerced Satanic orgy did depend to some extent on Meredith being viewed as a saint in the eyes of Knox et al. The (she-) devil wouldn't waste her time trying to corrupt a sinner.

It's interesting to approach this from the point of view of what's allowed to be surmised, in the courtroom.

During Mingini's summation in 2009, leading up to the first conviction, Mignini said something that even Judge Massei did not adhere to (in the eventual motivations). But it was striking that it was allowed to be said, unchallenged.

Mignini made up conversation from Amanda, which came out of nowhere, Mignini faux-quoted Amanda as telling Meredith, "We will make you have sex." Mignini then readily admitted that he was only making this up, but that it was this sort of conversation which was part of his over-all, osmotically-logical prosecution.

..... that even Judge Massei did not buy, or adhere to, even in convicting them

That's part of the Italian process I do not "get". Prosecutors and Judges just get to make **** up. There's no evidence associated with it, but if it is "osmotically logical", then someone goes to jail for life. To hell with evidence.

And further - since 3 Oct 2011 this has not been about evidence anyways. The ISC in March 2013 simply took a side in that internal war. They ruled that essentially, yes, prosecutors actually DO get to make **** up. But the quashing of the acquittals also forestalled a series of threatened investigations into Perugian justice and the activities of the prosecutors there.

There are many who feel that is now what's driving these wrongful convictions, that the investigations not be allowed to go ahead.

 

[Kaosium]

Really where is that at? Sophie sure doesn't describe it.

He recalled the data from various testimonies, from which, as he observed it emerged that at around 18:00-18:30 pm, Meredith began to eat a homemade pizza with various toppings (cheese, mozzarella, eggplant and perhaps also onions) and then ate apple crumble with ice cream. This meal ended at about 20:30 pm, so he considered that the mealtime lasted from 18:30 to 20:30 pm.

He recalled the reports by Dr. Lalli and the other experts stating that under macroscopic examination, the stomach contents revealed a piece of apple and floury fragments which might have been from the crumble or from the pizza. He also recalled that the emptying of the stomach under standard conditions starts around three and a half hours after the start of a meal, say between three and four hour after, and that the term "emptying" indicates the stomach emptying its contents (into the duodenum). He asserted that "knowing that Meredith's meal started at 18:30 pm, knowing that there were about 500 cc of stomach contents, and knowing from the autopsy that there was no pathology of the stomach...which could slow down digestion, and above all", as reported by Dr. Lalli, knowing that the duodenum was still empty "because the stomach had not even begun to empty itself."

From there on it goes to the part where Introna is credited as saying 3-4 hours, which was misquoted/whatever and changed to 2-3 when Lalli corrected his testimony and thus went from 9:30-10:30 to 9-9:30. The range reduced because of course we know she wasn't killed before 9:00 PM. Reading through these again it occurs to me a number of the experts were probably using T-1/2 instead of T-(lag) mistakenly because some have lower estimates in the range of 3 hours. The literature certainly doesn't support that.

Once again I'm sure the defense will lay it out as you have and it will be case closed.

I doubt they'll lay it out, Italian courts appear to place more confidence in fragrant bums and the sort. Things they can understand.


Incidentally, you're in for a surprise if you go looking through the testimonies of the girls as to when the meal started. It doesn't seem like they thought it later than 6:30 and I recall some changed their testimony.

 

[Grinder]

I see you found where Massei misquoted Introna but ignored where he quoted him accurately on this subject in the post you responded to that I cited for you. One more time:

Professor Introna therefore recalled the witness depositions of Meredith’s friends, from which it would have resulted that Meredith began eating her last meal at around 18:30–19:00 pm on November 1, 2007 (page 25 of the report already cited several times, and the declarations made in the court hearing of June 20, 2009). Based on these elements and considering a time of gastric emptying of 2 to 3 hours after the commencement of the ingestion of the last meal, Professor Introna asserts that the violence suffered by Meredith, and which probably caused the cessation of the digestive process, began between 21:00 pm and 21:30 pm.

Here what his testimony translates to using the Google - the Italian found on AK's page

Then we can have the maximum of the range inferred the time of death as occurred three or four hours after the start of taking the last meal is known to 18:30 , so time of death shall be cut between 21.30 and 22.30 not over .

Seems as if that agrees with what someone is saying here

So Introna would seemingly think that the attack stopped digestion for 1/2 an hour at least if PMF is accurate. I haven't found the PMF Massei quote you used above in his testimony. I thought you said that the attack would only stop digestion for a couple of minutes

I would have sworn that you said TOD at 9:05 not the beginning of the attack - now of course the beginning of the attack is a good or better for the kids.

Funny that the PMF translation uses 21:00 pm.

I've just done a windows translation of Introna's and will look for the PMF quote

From windows translation:

Then we have a clear indication the stress that the victim has been started between 21.30 and 22.30 up using multiple parameters lassi at our disposal not using those cheaper and more useful, using wider than we had available. Since then lasted the stressful effect since its inception at the time of death we shall see later, for now we do local mind and the aggression of Kercher began roughly between 21.30 and 22.30.​

 

[Grinder]

Another quote from Introna under cross:

Lawyer I thank you very much for this question I will point out one thing I hadn't done yet. We wanted to examine extreme parameters unfavorable to us, both in the time of his death because otherwise we would have narrowed the range much closer to 21.00, we wanted to consider gastric emptying inhibited by the violent action of an action. In the literature it is not said that such stressful event matches the gastric emptying, lockup can be anything, a slight delay emptying, emptying lockup. Assuming the assumption most favourable to us that there has never inhibited gastric emptying then meant that the time of his death shall be considered when the stomach we found. We have said that the stomach is full, we imagine that the emptying has stuck to stress, from the moment of lunch when you are stress that occurred two to three hours and then acute stress occurred at around 21.30-22.30. If acute stress has not occurred and gastric emptying was normal then it means that it is not that acute stress occurred between 21.30 and 22.30 but is the death that occurred between 21.30 and 22.30. Not if I can ...​

ETA - More - Then we maximally possible range we have taken the time of his death as occurring three to four hours after the start of the assumption of the last meal that is 18.30, so the time of death to shrink between 21.30 and 22.30, not beyond.

 

[Kaosium]

Here what his testimony translates to using the Google - the Italian found on AK's page



Seems as if that agrees with what someone is saying here

So Introna would seemingly think that the attack stopped digestion for 1/2 an hour at least if PMF is accurate.

Hmm, I don't follow how you get there.

I haven't found the PMF Massei quote you used above in his testimony.

Which means...what? Massei made it up deliberately to make his attempt to explain away the inconsistancies nigh impossible? Or perhaps it hasn't been looked for hard enough or was in a report and not testimony?

I thought you said that the attack would only stop digestion for a couple of minutes

In relation to the hours of being tortured (with no evidence of those kinds of restraints or wounds) that were required to get to the 11:45 ToD, yeah, that's minutes.

I would have sworn that you said TOD at 9:05 not the beginning of the attack - now of course the beginning of the attack is a good or better for the kids.

Which is why I don't spent much time or effort on the difference. ToD=Time of attack plus five or ten minutes to bleed out, however if they weren't there at the time of the attack they weren't involved in the murder.

Funny that the PMF translation uses 21:00 pm.

What, did I use AM somewhere? Is it relevant if I did?

I've just done a windows translation of Introna's and will look for the PMF quote

From windows translation:

Then we have a clear indication the stress that the victim has been started between 21.30 and 22.30 up using multiple parameters lassi at our disposal not using those cheaper and more useful, using wider than we had available. Since then lasted the stressful effect since its inception at the time of death we shall see later, for now we do local mind and the aggression of Kercher began roughly between 21.30 and 22.30.​

Then post the link. This looks exactly like the uncorrected testimony Massei quoted from on page 132 or so, which is entirely irrelevant to the final argument that Massei had to address on page 177.

It's that argument which needs to be engaged, not dodged or obfuscated like Massei was forced to. Since it's been referred to by me and others, here's where LJ ran the data from one (or more) studies.

 

[Grinder]

Kaosium,

You can get the Italian of Introna at AK's site of documents.

The pm thing was odd that PMF used it in the translation no comment about you at all, just them and their translations.

It seems pretty clear that Introna put TOD between 9:30 and 10:30 no later.

 

[Kaosium]

Another quote from Introna under cross:

Lawyer I thank you very much for this question I will point out one thing I hadn't done yet. We wanted to examine extreme parameters unfavorable to us, both in the time of his death because otherwise we would have narrowed the range much closer to 21.00, we wanted to consider gastric emptying inhibited by the violent action of an action. In the literature it is not said that such stressful event matches the gastric emptying, lockup can be anything, a slight delay emptying, emptying lockup. Assuming the assumption most favourable to us that there has never inhibited gastric emptying then meant that the time of his death shall be considered when the stomach we found. We have said that the stomach is full, we imagine that the emptying has stuck to stress, from the moment of lunch when you are stress that occurred two to three hours and then acute stress occurred at around 21.30-22.30. If acute stress has not occurred and gastric emptying was normal then it means that it is not that acute stress occurred between 21.30 and 22.30 but is the death that occurred between 21.30 and 22.30. Not if I can ...​

ETA - More - Then we maximally possible range we have taken the time of his death as occurring three to four hours after the start of the assumption of the last meal that is 18.30, so the time of death to shrink between 21.30 and 22.30, not beyond.

Now explain to me how that being delayed by any reasonable length amounts to making it more probable that Raffaele and Amanda were there when the attack began? Gastric emptying being delayed that long was only a dingbat theory to keep the ToD of 11:45 pristine and thus (also) Curatolo. In other words Raffaele and Amanda got there at 9:15 PM (they didn't have to take into account Naruto at the time) and her gastric emptying stopped and they (supposedly) kept it stopped for ~2.5 hours so the 11:45 PM ToD could remain 'viable' and therefore Curatolo not discredited.

It just moves the ToD back, it doesn't change the probability they could have been there when the attack began.

So, another own goal.

 

[Kaosium]

Kaosium,

You can get the Italian of Introna at AK's site of documents.

The pm thing was odd that PMF used it in the translation no comment about you at all, just them and their translations.

It seems pretty clear that Introna put TOD between 9:30 and 10:30 no later.

Yes, he did, relying on Lalli's testimony..which was then changed so his numbers had to change.

 

[Diocletus]

Could heavy drinking impact the digestive system the next day?

Why yes, yes it could. Particularly if she was drinking Genny cream ale.

 

[RandyN]

Samir Zakhari, Ph.D., is director, Division of Metabolism and Health Effects, National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, Bethesda, Maryland, wrote, "BAC is influenced by environmental factors (such as the rate of alcohol drinking, the presence of food in the stomach, and the type of alcoholic beverage) and genetic factors (variations in the principal alcohol-metabolizing enzymes alcohol dehydrogenase [ADH] and aldehyde dehydrogenase [ALDH2]). The alcohol elimination rate varies widely (i.e., three-fold) among individuals and is influenced by factors such as chronic alcohol consumption, diet, age, smoking, and time of day (Bennion and Li 1976; Kopun and Propping 1977)." link

IMO we would have to know which genetic variants of alcohol dehydrogenase Meredith had to say anything more.

Isn't there some questionable data about Lali and alcohol? Cant remember where but I seem to recall that he tested for alcohol and came to some unreasonable and highly unlikely level of concentration. Anyone else remember that? And so he repeated the test but when or why or how...I just have no citations...but I don't think I am dreaming that this happened.

Lali made mistakes certainly. Failing to measure body temp immediately was the first one...his duty should have trumped the prosecutors wishes. Forgetting to weigh the body is almost unbelievable but they claim that he did not do it. The alcohol mix up was a third mistake I recall...

And thinking about Randys posts the other day with the upraised hand of Miss Kercher...which I doubt is true BTW ...did remind me about if or why there was never much discussion (at least none that I heard) in regards to the stage of Rigor mortis...probably as arguable as this digestive business given the excuses of house temperature...???etc.. the front door was open but the heat should have kept MK locked room warm, if not even extra hot depending on what thermostat controlled the zone that heated her room. And yet I dont recall Rigor data at all. Anyone else?

I recall something about the meal as well...didn't a Brit-virg claim that MK hardly touched her food? 500cc would be approx 2 slices and a small dessert. Its 2 cups...so. Sounds like it was all still there to me.

The alcohol? Hardly relevant. Not likely to alter the digestive bell curve much as it related to this case. And certainly not likely to remove all the other pieces of data that lead to a TOD very near 9:30. Sure 10... if you imagine RG controlled (perhaps tied up?) Miss Kercher and sexually assaulted her...but there is that bothersome fully clothed upper body while attacked at least...but it might explain why the jeans were fairly clean...he just pulled those off first and started a sexual assault which developed into a knife attack as Miss Kercher became combative? Who knows? Only RG now.

None of it matters though I expect. If Nencini changes the TOD to 10 what does he do with Toto? With Nara? With the other Super witnesses?
Just ignore them?

Did RG run into the girl on the steps? Sure why not? He may have gone back to peek at what those tow truck people were doing? Who put the cats blood on the light switch downstairs? Not the cat certainly.

I see reasonable doubt dripping off this whole case against AK and RS. Not so much for RG.

Prosecutor and police corruption? Well, there is no case being brought but I think presenting evidence beyond all doubt would be easily done there. At least for a couple of scoundrels.

 

[Kaosium]

Isn't there some questionable data about Lali and alcohol? Cant remember where but I seem to recall that he tested for alcohol and came to some unreasonable and highly unlikely level of concentration. Anyone else remember that? And so he repeated the test but when or why or how...I just have no citations...but I don't think I am dreaming that this happened.

You're not dreaming, there was a sample or something that spoiled or somesuch and gave a wildly high figure, but it turns out if you looked another place where that alcohol would register there was only a trace. Chris Halkides has posted on it occasionally.

Lali made mistakes certainly. Failing to measure body temp immediately was the first one...his duty should have trumped the prosecutors wishes.

My understanding was he didn't have the opportunity, it was Stefanoni who was running the show that day, taking orders from Mignini.

Forgetting to weigh the body is almost unbelievable but they claim that he did not do it. The alcohol mix up was a third mistake I recall...

I'm not sure regarding the story on the weighing of the body, that does strike me as ridiculous, I'm not sure how that could happen.

There's something else interesting regarding Lalli, if you go to the very first news reports you'll see a quote from him regarding how he could 'rule out rape' very early in the case, roughly November 4th or so. Then the next day releasing a new report where 'rape was a possibility' when it just so happened the Perugian police were about to regale the international tabloids with their sordid (and completely unsupported) theory of a wild drug/sex orgy game/prank/sexual ritual/whatever.

However he's also the one who was cashiered from the posse investigation for failing to fall in line with one of Mignini's pet theories, (forget why off the top of my head) and when he corrected his testimony on T(lag) it was in the direction of being more accurate in regards to the literature and less convenient for the prosecution.

I dunno, I got the idea reading about him that he was kinda like an old country doctor, maybe a little bit of a putz but not really corrupt. I think perhaps it should be remembered that working with Mignini is probably a delicate process. OK, maybe not for you, perhaps you'd kick him in the nuts and give the demented little toad the wedgie he deserves and end up in an Italian prison, but most people probably try to stay out of his way and give him what he wants being as there's some forty or so people from this case and his last who ended up being investigated/charged for getting in his way and not giving him what he wanted.

I will say I'm more impressed with him admitting to the possibility of a mistake than Stefanoni's instance (regarding contamination) that it had never occurred in her lab.

And thinking about Randys posts the other day with the upraised hand of Miss Kercher...which I doubt is true BTW ...did remind me about if or why there was never much discussion (at least none that I heard) in regards to the stage of Rigor mortis...probably as arguable as this digestive business given the excuses of house temperature...???etc.. the front door was open but the heat should have kept MK locked room warm, if not even extra hot depending on what thermostat controlled the zone that heated her room. And yet I dont recall Rigor data at all. Anyone else?

I recall nothing about rigor mortis in this case and know little about it.

Incidentally regarding a 'blondish' hair in/near her hand, look at this picture:

​

Meredith had blondish highlights, that hair was quite likely her own.

Damn that picture (especially) breaks my heart.

I recall something about the meal as well...didn't a Brit-virg claim that MK hardly touched her food? 500cc would be approx 2 slices and a small dessert. Its 2 cups...so. Sounds like it was all still there to me.

Yeah, I doubt the dice were loaded just because snake eyes came up. That has to happen sometimes, and in this case it's simply because it did that the data is interesting and why it's relevant.

The alcohol? Hardly relevant. Not likely to alter the digestive bell curve much as it related to this case. And certainly not likely to remove all the other pieces of data that lead to a TOD very near 9:30. Sure 10... if you imagine RG controlled (perhaps tied up?) Miss Kercher and sexually assaulted her...but there is that bothersome fully clothed upper body while attacked at least...but it might explain why the jeans were fairly clean...he just pulled those off first and started a sexual assault which developed into a knife attack as Miss Kercher became combative? Who knows? Only RG now.

Indeed, the possibilities of things like low level alcohol and other minor confounding factors quite likely contributed to her going so long without passing anything to the duodenum, in other words are good explanations of why 'snake eyes' came up, they don't allow for a longer time, they suggest why the longer time happened. There's no room on the right of that curve.

None of it matters though I expect. If Nencini changes the TOD to 10 what does he do with Toto? With Nara? With the other Super witnesses?
Just ignore them?

I've wondered that myself. They might just ignore Curotolo's saying they were there continuously and pretend they quickly slipped away to do the murder and then came back to stand outside in the cold with all those people (none of whom saw them outside Curatolo) around and argue about it. They have to do an egregious cherry pick of his testimony already and pretend the fact that he observed masks on students and them climbing into the disco buses which in any sane courtroom would discredit his testimony completely because he was obviously talking about the wrong night.

Did RG run into the girl on the steps? Sure why not? He may have gone back to peek at what those tow truck people were doing? Who put the cats blood on the light switch downstairs? Not the cat certainly.

I've not followed this one very well, it does seem there's something interesting about that blood, however is a tenant getting cat blood from petting the cat and then using the lightswitch a possible explanation?

I see reasonable doubt dripping off this whole case against AK and RS. Not so much for RG.

Prosecutor and police corruption? Well, there is no case being brought but I think presenting evidence beyond all doubt would be easily done there. At least for a couple of scoundrels.

There should be an investigation done. I said a while back if it ever turned out Patrick Lumumba was bugged then Mignini ought to be investigated, whether it was before he was arrested or after he was released. If I have heard correctly he was definitely bugged and his bar was as well. That stinks to high heaven considering their pretense of not even considering him a suspect until named by Amanda, and of course to what legitimate purpose could they have for wiretapping him after his release other than things like blackmail?

 

[Samson]

Now explain to me how that being delayed by any reasonable length amounts to making it more probable that Raffaele and Amanda were there when the attack began? Gastric emptying being delayed that long was only a dingbat theory to keep the ToD of 11:45 pristine and thus (also) Curatolo. In other words Raffaele and Amanda got there at 9:15 PM (they didn't have to take into account Naruto at the time) and her gastric emptying stopped and they (supposedly) kept it stopped for ~2.5 hours so the 11:45 PM ToD could remain 'viable' and therefore Curatolo not discredited.

It just moves the ToD back, it doesn't change the probability they could have been there when the attack began.

So, another own goal.

I understand Nencini's brain emptying has 14 days to run its course.

 

[Kaosium]

I understand Nencini's brain emptying has 14 days to run its course.

Then we get to wait for the translations, excerpts coming out drip by drip, most probably at first through google translate. It won't be nearly as fun as C&V was, which was the first victory for reality in this case, a veritable gusher of urine dousing Stefanoni's dubious work as it deserved. Juicy tidbits like "It is impossible to comprehend..." from Komponisto and peeking down the bunnyhole and watching Thoughtful's dismay as she read/translated the report and--being as she still had some intellectual integrity left then--pointing out just how what Stefanoni had done was an egregious departure from basic scientific principals.


This one will probably make me nauseous, much like my delayed reading of the ISC's motivations did.

*sigh*

 

[Samson]

Then we get to wait for the translations, excerpts coming out drip by drip, most probably at first through google translate. It won't be nearly as fun as C&V was, which was the first victory for reality in this case, a veritable gusher of urine dousing Stefanoni's dubious work as it deserved. Juicy tidbits like "It is impossible to comprehend..." from Komponisto and peeking down the bunnyhole and watching Thoughtful's dismay as she read/translated the report and--being as she still had some intellectual integrity left then--pointing out just how what Stefanoni had done was an egregious departure from basic scientific principals.


This one will probably make me nauseous, much like my delayed reading of the ISC's motivations did.

*sigh*

Because I am reasonably new to this intrigue, I may have a Pollyanna view. The report is doomed, because it is the second attempt only (after Massei) to present a detailed crime narrative involving A and R. Massei had an unlimited canvas. He could work from 9 12 (Amelie) till whenever, because he placed TOD at 11 30. Crini has taken this off the table, and validated Naruto at 9 26, but even Amalie poses extreme difficulty. This is a quantum leap in fiction writing. Nencini needs an empty cottage for a tract of time, after a hasty packing of the knife, the slaying, and the lack of traceable blood to the defendants. In my view Nencini has taken out a large loan, payable in three months, and trusting to unknown resources to repay it. Repayment is due.

I hope my analogy is not too obscure.

 

[Grinder]

Now explain to me how that being delayed by any reasonable length amounts to making it more probable that Raffaele and Amanda were there when the attack began? Gastric emptying being delayed that long was only a dingbat theory to keep the ToD of 11:45 pristine and thus (also) Curatolo. In other words Raffaele and Amanda got there at 9:15 PM (they didn't have to take into account Naruto at the time) and her gastric emptying stopped and they (supposedly) kept it stopped for ~2.5 hours so the 11:45 PM ToD could remain 'viable' and therefore Curatolo not discredited.

It just moves the ToD back, it doesn't change the probability they could have been there when the attack began.

So, another own goal.

I went to look after you called me out on the Massei quote which was the first I found, not a choice I made.

The difference made me curious and I found Introna's own testimony.

I agree with you, his thinking seems odd.

I've said it before and will again, it seems as if the Italians' minds work differently. Three compatibles equals a match, etc.