Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[eirik]

That reminds me, good old Soviet used the prison statistic to show how fascist the US was, and how grand the socialist paradise Soviet was. Didn't work then, won't work now.

 

[magellan]

Every prison uses solitary confinement. So no, that in of itself is not torture in international law.

Fun fact: a few weeks ago I asked myself: "Do we do solitary confinement?" and looked it up.
We do.
1 week maximum.
A judge has to authorize it. It can be extended. A judge has to authorize every single week.
If you do not get visitors (Yes, of course you can have visitors in solitary) A guard needs to spend an hour a day with you.
But agreed: let me qualify: Solitary confinement as practiced by the US is torture.

 

[eirik]

How so?

 

[magellan]

wikipedia:
Solitary confinement is considered to be a form of psychological torture[32] when the period of confinement is longer than a few weeks or is continued indefinitely.[46]

 

[Childlike Empress]

And on and on it goes ...

For those interested in Ukraine, here's another read-worthy travel report.

 

[Dcdrac]

a very illuminating article

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/13/ukrainians-russians-fascists-putin-west-ukraine

 

[Childlike Empress]

So they did send some forces to the East, several times apparently, but nothing arrived there willing to fulfill their orders. One building in Charkow was raided apparently, and the police chief resigned after that saying he was misled and expected dangerous militia while they were unarmed locals. A special forces guy made a public statement refusing to follow orders as they were trained to combat terrorism and there was nothing to see in I think Donetsk. Those buildings occupied on Monday are still occupied.

Here's a fun video of army reservists sent by the putschists under threat of arrest, arriving in Artjomowsk near Donetsk. They are quite easily persuaded to hand over their arms. By mostly if not totally unarmed locals.


The comments say the video was sold by the putschist media as showing Russian soldiers... I bet they cut out the St. George ribbons...

 

[Caustic Logic]

So confusing! One source just provided says

Ever since the revolution, Putin has promoted the idea that Ukraine is in "chaos". But there was no chaos, so he made some. The only chaos in Ukraine has been caused by Russian intervention.

Other sources mention some sort of government overthrow, radical agendas and witch hunts, etc. immediately preceding the annexation stuff and showing signs of just getting started. The other source, clearly informed by a bias just like Mr. Meek is, mentions some of that that and says:

In Kiev’s Maidan, the main square where the ‘revolution’ or the coup took place, the right-wing groupings are hanging around, aimlessly. Some men and women are frustrated. Many now even feel that they were fooled.

Thousands were paid to participate in what was thought would bring at least some social justice, some relief. But the interim government began taking dictate, almost immediately: from the United States, from European Union and from the institutions such as IMF and World Bank.
...
Nobody knows what will follow the coup. Confusion and frustration, as well as social collapse, may well cause a brutal civil war.

Also:

Same tactics that were lauded by Western propaganda during the Maidan uprising are now hypocritically condemned in the east and south of the country.

Yeah, I noticed that. When it's pro-West rejection of the netional government behind violent "protests" that take over the national capitol on behalf of all Ukrainians, it's awesome, and those accusing outsiders of steering it are laughed off as Putin shills. When it's in rejection of that decision that people protest, reject the national government in their area and try to force ... a popular referendum (at Russian gunpoint to be sure), suddenly it's Russia acting, not Ukraine's people.

The weekend saw an apparent attempt by proxy to separate the eastern regions of Donetsk, Luhansk and Kharkiv, and perhaps others, from Kiev's control.

But it's by proxy, that is, via the Ukrainian people. Except some are saying that some of them are actual Russians, so probably it's all faked by Moscow. Right? The lying fakers! Risking war with provocation and fakery and taking over parts of other peoples' just-rightfully-won spheres of influence!

Here's another Guardian article about the direct Russian military takeover and takeover by proxy and build-up:
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...sian-arms-buildup-ukraine-propaganda-war-nato

The latest Nato report has to be seen against this background. Its images purport to show Russian troops and hardware massing on the borders of eastern Ukraine. But there is one detail worth noting. Nato gives a date range for these pictures which makes them, essentially, historical. It is not at all clear that this situation pertains today.

The failure to come up with anything newer, it should be noted, implies pretty strongly that there is no newer imagery underlying the new claims. This would explain all the field reports looking for this urgent threat and finding it absent, at least physically. But hey, close enough. Russia has been on the border, could be again at any minute, etc. This hypothetical aggression will not/would not stand/be stood, er, allowed!

Awesome times on the brink, huh? Cheers!

 

[Klimax]

wikipedia:
Solitary confinement is considered to be a form of psychological torture[32] when the period of confinement is longer than a few weeks or is continued indefinitely.[46]

Just an article in New Yorker. First, you failed to link to Wikipedia (which is considered usually only placeholder for actual evidence) and you should have linked to original article outright.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande

Seems there as always two sides to it.

Found interesting map (no idea how good source it is)
http://www.solitaryconfinement.org/map
Incidentally my country is mid-coloured...

Since Russia loves to use as part of punishment to send people to Siberia... (See Pussy Riot)

So far no evidence of it being torture, evidence found it may be problematic. (What a surprise)

 

[McHrozni]

As for more likely to end up in prison: It's called math.
US prison population: 716 per 100.000
Russia: 484 per 100.000

Since when is a prison population an accurate measure of how likely you're to end up in prison? You need to examine way more: what sort of actions land you in prison, and crucially - for how long.
If the average sentence in the US for prison was twice as long as the one in Russia, and everything else was identical, you'd be more likely to end up in prison in Russia than in US.

Funnily enough, you misquoted Russian incarceration statistic by about 30%. The true number is somewhere north of 600 per 100,000. Furthermore, Russia has capacity to incarcerate about 25% more ... do you wonder why?

McHrozni

 

[eirik]

wikipedia:
Solitary confinement is considered to be a form of psychological torture[32] when the period of confinement is longer than a few weeks or is continued indefinitely.[46]

Oh my. You don't find your response.. Dishonest?

 

[McHrozni]

Yeah, I noticed that. When it's pro-West rejection of the netional government behind violent "protests" that take over the national capitol on behalf of all Ukrainians, it's awesome, and those accusing outsiders of steering it are laughed off as Putin shills. When it's in rejection of that decision that people protest, reject the national government in their area and try to force ... a popular referendum (at Russian gunpoint to be sure), suddenly it's Russia acting, not Ukraine's people.

This is mainly because you completely twisted the facts to perverse extremes. Ukrainians didn't reject "national government", they merely ousted a president. Their elected representatives agreed with them unanimously, even his own party rejected them. Then they did the very thing a democratic country should do in such a case: declared new elections to be held on a short, but reasonable notice. It's how a democracy should act.

This contrasts heavily with Crimea that was taken over by a military junta, declared independence and had a referendum without any necessary preconditions (such as voter rolls) and on a ridiculously short schedule without any credible oversight, which is a mockery of democratic process.

So um, yes, good observation - the two events were drastically different. They had some trivial similarities, but you'd find apples and submarines have about as much in common.

McHrozni

 

[Dcdrac]

This is mainly because you completely twisted the facts to perverse extremes. Ukrainians didn't reject "national government", they merely ousted a president. Their elected representatives agreed with them unanimously, even his own party rejected them. Then they did the very thing a democratic country should do in such a case: declared new elections to be held on a short, but reasonable notice. It's how a democracy should act.

This contrasts heavily with Crimea that was taken over by a military junta, declared independence and had a referendum without any necessary preconditions (such as voter rolls) and on a ridiculously short schedule without any credible oversight, which is a mockery of democratic process.

So um, yes, good observation - the two events were drastically different. They had some trivial similarities, but you'd find apples and submarines have about as much in common.

McHrozni

It is laughable to claim that referendum had any credibility.

 

[uke2se]

War is creeping closer, it seems. Swedish national radio reports that Ukrainian troops are preparing to assault the occupied buildings after their ultimatum ended this morning. Russia continues to blame everyone but themselves in the UN, and the EU is preparing increased sanctions against Russian energy interests, the Swedish foreign minister stating that the EU has tried to get a de-escalation of the crisis, but Russia has kept on escalating.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No love for Bush here either, but I love how this is cherry-picked to omit the various wrongdoings of Putin. ...

No kidding. Really Childlike Empress, is that what you believe? The US might only have proportionately more kills because we currently have more power to do so but I don't believe for a minute Putin has no blood on his hands.

Richard Engel, MSNBC reporter is just back from the Ukraine and had some interesting comments this morning.

The Russian narrative is, the US was behind the Ukraine revolution in the first place that led to the move to independence from Russia. The US narrative is, Russia is behind the current destabilization to take it back. And the population is split. Both narratives seem likely to have elements of truth in them.

Engel did confirm the men who've taken over buildings on the border consist of some Russian soldiers, some sympathetic ethnic Russian Ukrainians and some paid thugs. The Ukraine government has no good options. If they don't crack down, they risk losing territory. If they do crack down they risk the Russians invading under the premise of restoring order.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Richard Engel, isn't that the clown who faked his own abduction in Syria?

You didn't tell me that Ruslana was on US tour when you saw her on MSMBS, btw. How do I know now? I follow UCMC on twitter now and she gave a report when she was back yesterday ...

I posted the chart - and didn't "permit" nitpicking the general picture - to show those who just post here for Putin bashing that they treat on thin ice, given the type of mass-murdering serial-lying war criminals they implicitly defend. Wake me up when Putin starts ordering the murder of 16 year old Russian citizens without even a Kangaroo court and because of what their father said.

That's totally evil, Skeptic Ginger, and you and your lukewarm "leftist" friends make a total fool of yourself by cowering behind searching for an "unbiased" view that allows you to get away without being accused by braindead right-wingers of being "unpatriotic". Your greatest fear, right? It's disgraceful. Read the Vltchek article I posted above and stop being part of the problem.

 

[Dcdrac]

A true left winger would not support a regime like putins, the man is an autocrat his government stamps on human rights, while the people of Russia are suffering at his hands, and some more poor people have been handed over to suffer.

 

[angrysoba]

War is creeping closer, it seems. Swedish national radio reports that Ukrainian troops are preparing to assault the occupied buildings after their ultimatum ended this morning. Russia continues to blame everyone but themselves in the UN, and the EU is preparing increased sanctions against Russian energy interests, the Swedish foreign minister stating that the EU has tried to get a de-escalation of the crisis, but Russia has kept on escalating.

Well, I certainly hope we don't end up with the new Ukrainian government shooting its own people like the previous Ukrainian government did.

This does not look good at all.

A true left winger would not support a regime like putins, the man is an autocrat his government stamps on human rights, while the people of Russia are suffering at his hands, and some more poor people have been handed over to suffer.

No True Left-winger? I think that Stalin could be said to have been very Left-wing and he was even worse than Putin by a few orders of magnitude. It didn't stop Left-wingers lining up to support him which they did in droves, and in fact a few dags cling on to Uncle Joe even now.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Not sure what your issues are Childlike E.

Did I say Ruslana was being interviewed from the Ukraine? The only thing I've concluded is I can't say what the truth is from the evidence we do have.

You posted a chart that suggested Putin was a saint. I think we can conclude that's not true. As for read the Vltchek article, are you suggesting that's the Bible, take your word for it?

However, it happens to agree with what I posted. Or did you just assume what I said without reading?

there is no ‘self-grown dispute’ between two nations. The seeds of mistrust, and possible tragedy, are sown by the outsiders, and nurtured by their malignant propaganda.

The Russian narrative is, the US was behind the Ukraine revolution in the first place that led to the move to independence from Russia. The US narrative is, Russia is behind the current destabilization to take it back. And the population is split. Both narratives seem likely to have elements of truth in them.

Are you claiming there is no split in the population whether they want to be independent or Russian? That's like saying we are all right wingers because we elected Bush twice. Now we are all left wing.

It would be idealistic to assume there are not mixed opinions in the Ukraine. The guy they got rid of was initially elected, I'm guessing by a narrow margin. It suggests like everywhere these days, populations in lots of countries seem to be quite split.

As for Engel, he's fluent in Arabic and he reports often from the Middle East. I have no reason to doubt his reports. I don't know and don't care if he was undercover or actually kidnapped in Syria. I don't recall it was ever a main story with days of coverage, meaning it could just as easily have been something to do with getting a story and not getting informants in trouble. Don't know and don't care, except I didn't see a publicity stunt there regardless of what it was about.

 

[uke2se]

Well, I certainly hope we don't end up with the new Ukrainian government shooting its own people like the previous Ukrainian government did.

I'd hope the Ukrainian government forces let the insurgents fire first, but who can know in a situation like this? Kiev really needs to act tough, as the insurgents aren't willing to negotiate. If Kiev can manage to find a way to force them out of the buildings without bloodshed, they will have robbed Putin of his invasion excuse. That's not to say he won't just invade anyway though.

This does not look good at all.

Quite.