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Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

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Caustic Logic said:
Yeah that thing is a bit tricky. But it says unjustified, and there was a major terrorist attack blamed on Chechens that preceded that. Moscow apartment bombings.
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Not tricky at all. As you can read in the article:

The invasion last year was rather the outcome of the fierce struggle waged by the Kremlin to elect its own man as successor to Boris Yeltsin. It finally chose Mr Putin as the prime minister who would guarantee that Mr Yeltsin's family and associates did not end up in jail for looting state property during their years in power. As a political gambit, the war succeeded brilliantly in making Mr Putin a nationalist hero and winning him the presidency.
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The man who brought Putin to power on behalf of the "Yeltsin Family" was the same man who blew up the apartment buildings, family member and media mogul and national security boss Boris Berezowski (may he rot in hell), and Putin was still in the position of a puppet. Blaming him for the Chechen wars is as absurd and clueless as blaming Obama for Afghanistan. After Putin turned into the man that kicked Berezowski and his ilk out of the country, the creep spend the rest of his life trying to pay back, including ordering his longtime bodyguard and driver Litvinenko to write CT books and at an appropriate moment he got rid of him in a spectacular way our pseudo-sceptical friends who suck up every CT if it's only official sucked up in exactly the way intended. ;)
 
Childlike Empress said:
Not tricky at all. As you can read in the article:




The man who brought Putin to power on behalf of the "Yeltsin Family" was the same man who blew up the apartment buildings, family member and media mogul and national security boss Boris Berezowski (may he rot in hell), and Putin was still in the position of a puppet. Blaming him for the Chechen wars is as absurd and clueless as blaming Obama for Afghanistan. After Putin turned into the man that kicked Berezowski and his ilk out of the country, the creep spend the rest of his life trying to pay back, including ordering his longtime bodyguard and driver Litvinenko to write CT books and at an appropriate moment he got rid of him in a spectacular way our pseudo-sceptical friends who suck up every CT if it's only official sucked up in exactly the way intended. ;)
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Hm... it's off-topic and all, but that sounds quite interesting. Different from what very little I read (mainly one article in a Berezovsky paper!) long ago, blaming FSB operatives for the Ryazan incident (passed off as an FSB readiness exercise by the Kremlin), when Putin had just come from the FSB and did garner much power from the incident. So as for absurd, no. Maybe not true, but it clearly makes some sense. And Putin never has exposed this Berezovsky set-up that I know of, just jailed him for other things. Not that such a thing would be easy to just do, considering how it was (made to look like Putin himself organized it?)

That's all I have to say on it though and otherwise I plead ignorance and don't want to de-rail the thread.
 
Thanks. Another myth pedaled by the know-it-alls is that Putin was that powerful "KGB head" figure. In fact he left the agency in the early nineties as a pretty small light and spent his time in St.Petersburg working for the mayor, until the Jelzin family got aware of him as a potential puppet years later and at one point installed him as FSB head, for around a year, when that head changed frequently like every other figure of that laughable drunkard Jelzin's regime.

JFYI. It's not my fault that this thread repeatedly falls into senseless smearing of Putin (and a certain Empress). Almost seems like the culprits couldn't care less about Ukraine.
 
Klimax said:
Chechnya would like a word... Georgia and Ukraine too.

I must say, it had to be very hard to find at least few items where you could 0 for Putin...
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Ukraine???
So now Putin was behind the Euromaidan coup so he could stage a countercoup in crimea?
Ever thought of teaming up with bill kristol?

Prison torture is propably a tossup. The US still carries out death penalties, has solitary confinement (Aka torture), forced labour, and you are more likely to end up in prison if you are in the US. (USA is #1, Russia #9 in prison population) But chalking up the ukraine for putin???
 
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Childlike Empress said:
[imgw=700]http://i.imgur.com/OrS10Ux.jpg[/imgw]
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No love for Bush here either, but I love how this is cherry-picked to omit the various wrongdoings of Putin. How many times did Bush fail to hold democratic elections? How many journalists were killed in the US during Bush's regime? How many square kilometres have Bush illegally annexed under a pretense that they were "protecting Americans abroad"?

It's almost as if the usual suspects are being deliberately manipulative. Fancy that...

ETA: also, as others have pointed out, the numbers aren't even accurate to begin with...
 
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magellan said:
Ukraine???
So now Putin was behind the Euromaidan coup so he could stage a countercoup in crimea?
Ever thought of teaming up with bill kristol?

Prison torture is propably a tossup. The US still carries out death penalties, has solitary confinement (Aka torture), forced labour, and you are more likely to end up in prison if you are in the US. (USA is #1, Russia #9 in prison population) But chalking up the ukraine for putin???
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I suppose he's referring to the phantom invasion Putin famously launched in Ukraine, in case you missed all the videos of their forces pouring across the border and putting invaded cities in lockdown. Not to mention the rush of refugees into liberated Europe-bound Ukraine.

Although it's been seriously proposed that Putin did the Maidan massacre too, to enable the *fascist false-flagger* takeover, to justify the invasion he yearned. If only Ukraine could be made into an enemy nation instead of friendly, then he could brutalize them into being friendly! Perfect Putin plan! Next the men in cossack costume and whips will give these people the Pussy Riot treatment and teach them to love Putin!

And I wouldn't put it past Kristol or Klimax to take that absurd line. So, maybe.
 
Safe-Keeper said:
How many square kilometres have Bush illegally annexed under a pretense that they were "protecting Americans abroad"?
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Iraq.
Remember: We have to fight them there or we will have to fight them here.
And of course bush the elder had panama.
And Ronnie had Grenada.
 
All of this is a distraction from the hard reality, putins, regime its destabilising an neighbouring state, has shown treaties signed by that regime may as well be toilet paper , it has broken international law under the flimsiest of pretexts that only the wilfully blind cannot see through.
 
magellan said:
Iraq.
Remember: We have to fight them there or we will have to fight them here.
And of course bush the elder had panama.
And Ronnie had Grenada.
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I wasn't aware Bush invaded Iraq to protect its American population, Sudetenland-style, or that he then proceeded to annex the country.
 
Can we all agree at least that you can't be an anti-imperialist and support the imperialist Putin? It would be better if people were honest about their allegiances.
 
magellan said:
Ukraine???
So now Putin was behind the Euromaidan coup so he could stage a countercoup in crimea?
Ever thought of teaming up with bill kristol?

Prison torture is propably a tossup. The US still carries out death penalties, has solitary confinement (Aka torture), forced labour, and you are more likely to end up in prison if you are in the US. (USA is #1, Russia #9 in prison population) But chalking up the ukraine for putin???
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And those Russians soldiers on Crimea don't exist and were never there outside their bases, right? Don't try to pretend that what you talk about was proposed by me. It's strawman, stop with that.

Hm, solitary confinement is suddenly torture? Pretty sure there is no evidence of that being classified as torture...

Force labor? What exactly are you talking about? Because I suspect small redefinition of terms happened here.

BTW: Unlike in Russia were being in opposition to Putin gets you very quickly into prison, not so in USA or in rest of Europe. (Few exception like Belarus notwithstanding)

As for ending up in prison, I suggest you don't go there, Russia is much worse place for that...no chance to defend it without massive contortion of logic.

Sorry, but you won't get to whitewash Putin or Russia.

Caustic Logic said:
...
And I wouldn't put it past Kristol or Klimax to take that absurd line. So, maybe.
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Unlike some others I try not to propose insane theories. So don't try to claim I did at any point in this or other threads or that I am prone to it. At best I suspect you mistook me for somebody else. (At worst, you are lying about me and trying to poison the well.)
 
Klimax said:
And those Russians soldiers on Crimea don't exist and were never there outside their bases, right? Don't try to pretend that what you talk about was proposed by me. It's strawman, stop with that.

Hm, solitary confinement is suddenly torture? Pretty sure there is no evidence of that being classified as torture...

Force labor? What exactly are you talking about? Because I suspect small redefinition of terms happened here.

BTW: Unlike in Russia were being in opposition to Putin gets you very quickly into prison, not so in USA or in rest of Europe. (Few exception like Belarus notwithstanding)

As for ending up in prison, I suggest you don't go there, Russia is much worse place for that...no chance to defend it without massive contortion of logic.

Sorry, but you won't get to whitewash Putin or Russia.



Unlike some others I try not to propose insane theories. So don't try to claim I did at any point in this or other threads or that I am prone to it. At best I suspect you mistook me for somebody else. (At worst, you are lying about me and trying to poison the well.)
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But Invasion isn't on the list. :)

And solitary confinement isn't suddenly torture. It is torture and always was, according to international law.

As for more likely to end up in prison: It's called math.
US prison population: 716 per 100.000
Russia: 484 per 100.000
 
What does the prison system in the US have to do with Russian imperial ambitions in the Ukraine? Could we stick to the topic, please?
 
magellan said:
But Invasion isn't on the list. :)

And solitary confinement isn't suddenly torture. It is torture and always was, according to international law.

As for more likely to end up in prison: It's called math.
US prison population: 716 per 100.000
Russia: 484 per 100.000
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That was part of my point. One has to try very hard to even find something remotely positive on Putin. BTW: Regional government got overthrown...

Evidence for your assertions about torture and solitary confinement being part of it? Quote and link please to good source.

And? False equivalency unless you can substantiate it. And how about going in prison for political speech like being against Putin. Something about Pussy Riot...

Or various raids and other obstacles on Opposition including house arrest.

You can try to abuse that number all you want, but you have never shown causation, not even statistical stuff nor anything related to that.

It simply shows how hypocritical some people are and how wilfully blind they are to pretend that Russia and Putin are any good.

You are pulling in unrelated stuff in order to mask things. In order to mislead and obfuscate.

uke2se said:
What does the prison system in the US have to do with Russian imperial ambitions in the Ukraine? Could we stick to the topic, please?
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Just invention of his and disjoint attack on USA using false equivalency.
 
Every prison uses solitary confinement. So no, that in of itself is not torture in international law.
 
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