Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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A piece in late March at the Huffington Post deals with Ehrman's latest book, "How God Became Jesus" --

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/25/bart-ehrman-jesus-god_n_5029457.html?utm_hp_ref=religion

At one point, the writer states --


"Perhaps the biggest surprise for Ehrman was that Paul, the earliest New Testament author, had a very exalted view of Jesus, believing that Jesus existed in divine form before he was incarnate as a human being. Ehrman concludes that Paul must have believed Jesus was an angel who became human and afterward was exalted to godhood."


One poster on another board has noted what this author says here and remarks: "So Ehrman has finally come around to acknowledging the mythicist view."

But another poster remarks : "That's not the mythicist view, but okay. Whatever helps you sleep at night."

But still another poster -- and the reason I bring this up here is because this third poster is our own Pakeha -- opines in reference to the first poster's "come around" remark: "That's my take as well."

My query to this board: Does the Huffington Post description of Ehrman's take on Paul tally with the mythicist view? True or False?

Stone

I'd be inclined on the information so far to think that Paul's taking Jesus for an angel could lend support to an MJ view EXCEPT knowing Ehrman has so far resisted taking this position himself there may be more information needed.

That is - even if Paul did not believe Jesus was strictly human does not mean that there wasn't a human whom Paul might have been mistaken for an angel.
 
... he was incarnate as a human being.

I would say that this line means Ehrman doesn't accept the Mythicist idea (unless you use the overly broad definition that Maximara likes to conflate with Carrier's MJ).
 
proudfootz

Right, and it will be interesting to see how Bart thinks that Paul managed to get an angel into a meat suit, despite the distinctiveness.


I suppose I'll end up buying this new Jesus book, too!

Anyway, glad you liked the link - the Jewish Encyclopedia has a lot of interesting stuff. (I agree that the later material probably is too far removed from Paul to help us or Bart).

You and I seem to be pretty much together in your earlier post. There is a dramatic future "coming to Earth" event taught in Paul (something of general scale, not just appearances to individuals and selected groups), at 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

I agree there is an apocalyptic strain that is somewhat distinctive to the emerging christianity - that history has a beginning, middle, and end and that the end is nigh.

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I certainly don't know that this is a feature of other personal salvation cults of this time period.
 
I suppose I'll end up buying this new Jesus book, too!



I agree there is an apocalyptic strain that is somewhat distinctive to the emerging christianity - that history has a beginning, middle, and end and that the end is nigh.

[qimg]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FFMGlFs1yNk/TdqzK-kTQcI/AAAAAAAABg4/oV0DHIyneTQ/s1600/untitled.PNG[/qimg]

I certainly don't know that this is a feature of other personal salvation cults of this time period.

Well, I don't know if it counts as a separate cult, but it is certainly in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/DeadSeaScrolls/1QpHab_pesher_habakkuk.html
...
"I will take my stand to watch and will station myself upon my fortress. I will watch to see what he will say to me and how [he will answer] my complaint. And YHWH answered [and said to me, 'write down the vision and make it plain] upon the tablets, that [he who reads] may read it speedily'" [Hab 2.1-2].

and God told Habakkuk to write down that which would happen to the final generation, but He did not make known to him when time would come to an end.

And as for that which He said, "that he who reads may read it speedily"

Interpreted this concerns the Teacher of Righteousness, to whom God made known all the mysteries of the words of His servants the prophets.

"For there shall be yet another vision concerning the appointed time. It shall tell of the end and shall not lie [Hab 2.3a].

Interpreted, this means that the final age shall be prolonged, and shall exceed all that the prophets have said; for the mysteries of God are astounding.

"If it tarries, wait for it, for it shall surely come and shall not be late" [Hab 2.3b].

Interpreted, this concerns the men of truth who keep the Law, whose hands shall not slacken in the service of truth when the final age is prolonged. For all the ages of God reach their appointed end as he determines for them in the mysteries of His wisdom.

["But the righteous shall live by his faith"] [[Hab 2.4b]].

Interpreted, this concerns all those who observe the Law in the House of Judah, whom God will deliver from the House of Judgement because of their suffering and because of their faith in the Teacher of Righteousness.
...


And as for that which He said, "because you have plundered many nations, all the remnant of the peoples shall plunder you":

Interpreted this concerns the last Priests of Jerusalem, who shall amass money and wealth by plundering the peoples. But in the last days, their riches and booty shall be delivered into the hands of the army of the Kittim, For it is they who shall be "the remnant of the peoples."
...
 
A piece in late March at the Huffington Post deals with Ehrman's latest book, "How God Became Jesus" --

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/25/bart-ehrman-jesus-god_n_5029457.html?utm_hp_ref=religion

At one point, the writer states --


"Perhaps the biggest surprise for Ehrman was that Paul, the earliest New Testament author, had a very exalted view of Jesus, believing that Jesus existed in divine form before he was incarnate as a human being. Ehrman concludes that Paul must have believed Jesus was an angel who became human and afterward was exalted to godhood."


One poster on another board has noted what this author says here and remarks: "So Ehrman has finally come around to acknowledging the mythicist view."

But another poster remarks : "That's not the mythicist view, but okay. Whatever helps you sleep at night."

But still another poster -- and the reason I bring this up here is because this third poster is our own Pakeha -- opines in reference to the first poster's "come around" remark: "That's my take as well."

My query to this board: Does the Huffington Post description of Ehrman's take on Paul tally with the mythicist view? True or False?

Stone

I love the smell of a strawman in the morning.
Your post's efforts to limit skepticism of an HJ to a single mythicist view are amusing, but not surprising.
 
I love the smell of a strawman in the morning.
Your post's efforts to limit skepticism of an HJ to a single mythicist view are amusing, but not surprising.

And of course, Stone does NOT limit the HJers' view only to Ehrman.

Stone appears to have bags full of strawman arguments.
 
Brainache

Thanks for the links. I am not DSS-hostile, but I am not persuaded that they describe early Jewish Christianity specifically. They do confirm that First Century Judaism, like every other century's Judaism that we can observe, featured many diverse views about all sorts of things, united by a grounding in a shared body of literaure, but not by any consensus on how to read it.

proudfootz

Love that cartoon :).

Stone

If we could put aside the "angel" business for a moment, this part of the Huff 'n Puff summary

Paul, the earliest New Testament author, had a very exalted view of Jesus, believing that Jesus existed in divine form before he was incarnate as a human being.
is just the plain vanilla Nicene Christianity in which Bart grew up. It was a feature of the particular style of Nicene Christianity he grew up in ("Bible believing" Protestantism) that Paul was on board with most or all the doctrines of a modern Protestant chruch. Protestantism did feature a revival of interest in Paul (beyond it's OK for Gentiles to be Christians) and his "early church," without the later trappings of Roman decadence.

As such, then, that much echoes a prominent HJ position and not an MJ position, since Nicene Christianity teaches a specific single historical human Jesus as part of its God's activity in space and time. I believe the nearest parallel MJ position would be the hypothesis that Jesus was worshipped by real people as this divine whatever before Jesus was worshipped as a man who had walked the Earth. There is nothing in this summary about Bart teaching that.

As to the other part of the summary, that Jesus' pre-incarnation "divine form" was some sort of angel, that is taught by the non-Nicene Jehovah's Witnesses. So far as I know, JW's do not teach that anybody on Earth worshipped Michael (the angel who, they think, became Jesus) beforehand, and do teach that Mike-Jesus really died here on Earth, fixed to a pole. So, even that "angel" part can be classified as consistent with an H- not necessarily an M- Jesus.

It really doesn't matter to H versus M what any real person thought while they were looking back on a historical Jesus. The HJ hypothesis is that they were lookig back at a real man's life and death, regardless of whatever barn sweepings they subsequently fantasized to "explain" his role in history.
 
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A piece in late March at the Huffington Post deals with Ehrman's latest book, "How God Became Jesus" --

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/25/bart-ehrman-jesus-god_n_5029457.html?utm_hp_ref=religion

At one point, the writer states --


"Perhaps the biggest surprise for Ehrman was that Paul, the earliest New Testament author, had a very exalted view of Jesus, believing that Jesus existed in divine form before he was incarnate as a human being. Ehrman concludes that Paul must have believed Jesus was an angel who became human and afterward was exalted to godhood."


One poster on another board has noted what this author says here and remarks: "So Ehrman has finally come around to acknowledging the mythicist view."

But another poster remarks : "That's not the mythicist view, but okay. Whatever helps you sleep at night."

But still another poster -- and the reason I bring this up here is because this third poster is our own Pakeha -- opines in reference to the first poster's "come around" remark: "That's my take as well."

My query to this board: Does the Huffington Post description of Ehrman's take on Paul tally with the mythicist view? True or False?

Stone



Well the first thing is - by now you should know that most sceptics here have only said that they think the evidence for Jesus is not good enough to conclude that he probably existed. And virtually nobody here has ever endorsed any specific myth theory.

However, if Ehrman is quoted correctly saying that he believes Paul thought Jesus was an angel who assumed human form on earth, then that sounds very much like the explanation given in 1999 by Earl Doherty in The Jesus Puzzle, and apparently also endorsed as very likely by Carrier in his forthcoming (overdue) book.
 
Well the first thing is - by now you should know that most sceptics here have only said that they think the evidence for Jesus is not good enough to conclude that he probably existed. And virtually nobody here has ever endorsed any specific myth theory.
I think that positive myth theories have been proposed in recent threads. I also think you're doing an injustice to the radicality of your own opinions, and indeed inadvertently misrepresenting them. Here is your view of matters, addressed to me earlier in this thread. My bold.
You don’t have any evidence. It’s no good telling us to read the bible (which you said was indeed your evidence).

The NT bible is only a source of peoples religious beliefs written centuries later by anonymous religious fanatics, telling tales of the supernatural. It’s no good telling us that is a credible source of reliable evidence for a human Jesus that none of it‘s authors ever knew.

What you need, what bible scholars actually need, is some external source of evidence which confirms what is said in the gospels and letters of the bible.

That means either some sort of convincing archaeological or physical evidence, or some writing contemporary to the lifetime of Jesus quoting historical factual details from a reliable known eye-witness who’s account can be verified as likely true.

But you don’t have anything remotely like that. All you have is the unreliable incredible writing of the supernatural in the NT.

So don’t tell us that we have been shown the evidence but that we won’t read it. Don’t tell us that the bible contains your evidence. Because everyone here has discussed all of that biblical writing to death over many thousands of posts long before you told us to read the links to your biblical “evidence”.
Thus, you do not in reality, as you now modestly claim, merely think that "the evidence for Jesus is not good enough to conclude that he probably existed". In fact you vehemently assert that it is entirely absent, and claimed evidence is mere "unreliable incredible writing of the supernatural in the NT". And "everyone" has dismissed "all" of it.

Let me now again refer to this statement of yours.
The NT bible is only a source of peoples religious beliefs written centuries later by anonymous religious fanatics, telling tales of the supernatural. It’s no good telling us that is a credible source of reliable evidence for a human Jesus that none of it‘s authors ever knew.
That, dear Sir, is an affirmative statement, not of mere inadequacy of evidence, but that Jesus is a positive myth, composed by supernaturalist tale tellers centuries later, inspired by religious fanaticism. So when you say that "virtually nobody here has ever endorsed any specific myth theory" you are forgetting yourself, who have repeatedly done exactly that in the passage I have just cited and in other posts couched in similar terms. Your centuries later fanatical supernaturalist tale telling myth may be added to the others, which I have extracted from Rational Wiki's article on the Jesus Myth.
Jesus myth patterned after a story found in the Jewish Talmudic literature about the illegitimate son of a woman named Miriam (Mary) and a Roman soldier named Pandera,
Jesus myth grew out of a pre-Christian cult of Joshua. Some suggest that the New Testament story about swapping Jesus for Barabbas (meaning “son of the father”) arose from the tension between Joshua factions.
Pre-Christian Jesus cult of Gnosticism. There is an ancient papyrus that has these words: “I adjure thee by the God of the Hebrews, Jesus.”
Literary parallels between Old Testament and New Testament stories. The first-century Jews were simply rewriting old stories, like a movie remake.
The Jesus character was patterned after the Essene Teacher of Righteousness, who was crucified in 88 B.C.E.)
Jesus was originally constructed as a spiritual concept by Hellenistic Jews, which later eventually turned Jesus into "historical" and "of the flesh" for theological reasons
- Suffering and a flesh and blood sacrifice were required to create a new covenant and
- The resurrection of a flesh and blood Jesus proved that resurrection of the flesh was possible.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jesus_myth_theory
 
Well the first thing is - by now you should know that most sceptics here have only said that they think the evidence for Jesus is not good enough to conclude that he probably existed. And virtually nobody here has ever endorsed any specific myth theory.


I think that positive myth theories have been proposed in recent threads. I also think you're doing an injustice to the radicality of your own opinions, and indeed inadvertently misrepresenting them. Here is your view of matters, addressed to me earlier in this thread. My bold.


You don’t have any evidence. It’s no good telling us to read the bible (which you said was indeed your evidence).

The NT bible is only a source of peoples religious beliefs written centuries later by anonymous religious fanatics, telling tales of the supernatural. It’s no good telling us that is a credible source of reliable evidence for a human Jesus that none of it‘s authors ever knew.

What you need, what bible scholars actually need, is some external source of evidence which confirms what is said in the gospels and letters of the bible.

That means either some sort of convincing archaeological or physical evidence, or some writing contemporary to the lifetime of Jesus quoting historical factual details from a reliable known eye-witness who’s account can be verified as likely true.

But you don’t have anything remotely like that. All you have is the unreliable incredible writing of the supernatural in the NT.

So don’t tell us that we have been shown the evidence but that we won’t read it. Don’t tell us that the bible contains your evidence. Because everyone here has discussed all of that biblical writing to death over many thousands of posts long before you told us to read the links to your biblical “evidence”.



Thus, you do not in reality, as you now modestly claim, merely think that "the evidence for Jesus is not good enough to conclude that he probably existed". In fact you vehemently assert that it is entirely absent, and claimed evidence is mere "unreliable incredible writing of the supernatural in the NT". And "everyone" has dismissed "all" of it.

Let me now again refer to this statement of yours.

The NT bible is only a source of peoples religious beliefs written centuries later by anonymous religious fanatics, telling tales of the supernatural. It’s no good telling us that is a credible source of reliable evidence for a human Jesus that none of it‘s authors ever knew.



That, dear Sir, is an affirmative statement, not of mere inadequacy of evidence, but that Jesus is a positive myth, composed by supernaturalist tale tellers centuries later, inspired by religious fanaticism. So when you say that "virtually nobody here has ever endorsed any specific myth theory" you are forgetting yourself, who have repeatedly done exactly that in the passage I have just cited and in other posts couched in similar terms. Your centuries later fanatical supernaturalist tale telling myth may be added to the others, which I have extracted from Rational Wiki's article on the Jesus Myth

Jesus myth patterned after a story found in the Jewish Talmudic literature about the illegitimate son of a woman named Miriam (Mary) and a Roman soldier named Pandera,
Jesus myth grew out of a pre-Christian cult of Joshua. Some suggest that the New Testament story about swapping Jesus for Barabbas (meaning “son of the father”) arose from the tension between Joshua factions.
Pre-Christian Jesus cult of Gnosticism. There is an ancient papyrus that has these words: “I adjure thee by the God of the Hebrews, Jesus.”
Literary parallels between Old Testament and New Testament stories. The first-century Jews were simply rewriting old stories, like a movie remake.
The Jesus character was patterned after the Essene Teacher of Righteousness, who was crucified in 88 B.C.E.)
Jesus was originally constructed as a spiritual concept by Hellenistic Jews, which later eventually turned Jesus into "historical" and "of the flesh" for theological reasons
- Suffering and a flesh and blood sacrifice were required to create a new covenant and
- The resurrection of a flesh and blood Jesus proved that resurrection of the flesh was possible. .http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jesus_myth_theory




Craig - why did you even bother to post the above silliness?

Everyone here who can read and who is not blinded by their own bias, can see very clearly from the quotes you provided (the quotes of my earlier posts), that they absolutely do NOT propose or endorse any specific myth theory in any way at all. And on the contrary the quotes just make absolutely crystal clear exactly what I just said in reply to Stone (and what I have explained to you at least 50 times before), namely that all I am claiming and all I have ever claimed is that “THE EVIDENCE IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH”! ….

… as I have explained directly to you at least 50 times here before - what has been offered by bible scholars and others, inc. posters here, as “evidence” of Jesus, is actually only evidence of people 1st century religious beliefs about Jesus. It is not actually evidence of Jesus himself. And the quotes which you decided to pick out and post above, actually even spell that out!


And finally, perhaps people would like to note the following complete fabrication from Craig, attempting to claim I had said something entirely different to what he just quoted from me (see the highlighted parts below) -


So don’t tell us that we have been shown the evidence but that we won’t read it. Don’t tell us that the bible contains your evidence. Because everyone here has discussed all of that biblical writing to death over many thousands of posts long before you told us to read the links to your biblical “evidence”.


Thus, you do not in reality, as you now modestly claim, merely think that "the evidence for Jesus is not good enough to conclude that he probably existed". In fact you vehemently assert that it is entirely absent, and claimed evidence is mere "unreliable incredible writing of the supernatural in the NT". And "everyone" has dismissed "all" of it.




What you see highlighted there is Craig actually quoting where I had said everyone here has discussed all of that biblical writing to death “ … and he simply decided to re-interpret that as me saying of the biblical writing "everyone" has dismissed "all" of it “ ! …

…. I did not of course say any such thing in that quote (or anywhere else, ever). I did not say, as Craig just claimed that “everyone” has dismissed all the biblical writing. What I said about “everyone”, is that that everyone here has discussed all of that biblical writing to death “ .
 
Craig
…. I did not of course say any such thing in that quote (or anywhere else, ever). I did not say, as Craig just claimed that “everyone” has dismissed all the biblical writing. What I said about “everyone”, is that that everyone here has discussed all of that biblical writing to death “ .
Very well. By everyone, I meant needless to say everyone here. But yes you may spell that out. Thank you. And I wrote "dismissed" instead of "discussed to death". Please duly amend my wording, though I really don't see much difference. However, I stand corrected. Thank you again.
 
… as I have explained directly to you at least 50 times here before - what has been offered by bible scholars and others, inc. posters here, as “evidence” of Jesus, is actually only evidence of people 1st century religious beliefs about Jesus. It is not actually evidence of Jesus himself. And the quotes which you decided to pick out and post above, actually even spell that out!
No they don't.
The NT bible is only a source of peoples religious beliefs written centuries later by anonymous religious fanatics, telling tales of the supernatural. It’s no good telling us that is a credible source of reliable evidence for a human Jesus that none of it‘s authors ever knew.
Anonymous religious fanatics "telling tales of the supernatural" centuries later does not mean preserving evidence, however inefficiently; it means composing myths.
 
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… as I have explained directly to you at least 50 times here before - what has been offered by bible scholars and others, inc. posters here, as “evidence” of Jesus, is actually only evidence of people 1st century religious beliefs about Jesus. It is not actually evidence of Jesus himself. And the quotes which you decided to pick out and post above, actually even spell that out! .



No they don't.

IanS
The NT bible is only a source of peoples religious beliefs written centuries later by anonymous religious fanatics, telling tales of the supernatural. It’s no good telling us that is a credible source of reliable evidence for a human Jesus that none of it‘s authors ever knew.


Anonymous religious fanatics "telling tales of the supernatural" centuries later does not mean preserving evidence, however inefficiently; it means composing myths.





Yes, it most certainly does spell out exactly what I just explained to you.

So this is just yet more of the exact same completely erroneous stuff from you all over again, claiming my quotes say things that they most definitely do not say.

What my quote says is that the bible is not a credible source of evidence because it’s extant copies were written centuries later by anonymous religious fanatics telling constant stories of the supernatural … that, as I just said, may be evidence of peoples 1st century religious beliefs, but it is not a credible source of reliable evidence for any of those anonymous copyist writers ever knowing a human Jesus.
 
What my quote says is that the bible is not a credible source of evidence because it’s extant copies were written centuries later by anonymous religious fanatics telling constant stories of the supernatural
"Stories of the supernatural" i.e. myths.
… that, as I just said, may be evidence of peoples 1st century religious beliefs, but it is not a credible source of reliable evidence for any of those anonymous copyist writers ever knowing a human Jesus.
What are "copyist writers"? Do you mean "copyists"? How could these, working very much later, as you stress, ever have known a human Jesus? What point are you making? They had pre-existing, perhaps centuries-old, texts in front of them and copied them as best they could.

Or if they were "writers" then they were responsible for the content of the "stories of the supernatural" which flowed from their pens, and they didn't replicate, but invented, material, inspired as you say by religious fanaticism. In this latter case they were mythmakers by definition, unless you want to call them novelists.

But what is a "copyist writer" if not one of the two things described above? A copyist who doesn't copy? A writer who doesn't compose?
 
There is no evidence at all for an historical Jesus in the NT--ZERO evidence.
1. The story of Jesus in gMark is about a character who Walked sea, transfigured and resurrected--a non-historical character.

2. The story of Jesus in gMatthew is about a character that was born of a Ghost--a non-historical character.

3. The story of Jesus in gLuke is about a character that was born of a Ghost--a non-historical character.

4. The story of Jesus in gJohn is about a character called God Creator, the Logos--a non-historical character.

5. The Jesus in Acts was a non-historical character who resurrected, commissioned his disciples and then immediately ascended in a cloud.

6. The Jesus in the Pauline Corpus was a non-historical character, the Last Adam--A SPIRIT who was raised from the dead.

ALL the evidence in NT support a non-historical Jesus.
 
The story of Jesus in gMatthew is about a character that was born of a Ghost--a non-historical character.
And in the same book there's another source which gives him a human genealogy.
Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; 3 and Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom ... etc, etc
The story of Jesus in gLuke is about a character that was born of a Ghost--a non-historical character.
And in the same book there's another source that gives him a human genealogy.
Luke 3:23 ... (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, 24 which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph, 25 which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge ... etc, etc
ALL the evidence in NT support a non-historical Jesus.
Not all, it don't. Some of it support a human being around whom fanciful tales were woven.
 
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And in the same book there's another source which gives him a human genealogy.

Your statement is a fallacy and a failure of logic.

The genealogies in gMatthew and gLuke are for a character called Joseph.

In gMatthew and gLuke Jesus was the Son of God born of a Ghost and his conception is described.

Essentially, the genealogy of Jesus is one of a Ghost.

There is ABSOLUTELY No evidence of an historical Jesus in the NT.
 
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IanS
What my quote says is that the bible is not a credible source of evidence because it’s extant copies were written centuries later by anonymous religious fanatics telling constant stories of the supernatural


"Stories of the supernatural" i.e. myths.


What on earth are you trying to argue about now!? You seem to be arguing with yourself!

Whether or not you want to call the biblical claims of the supernatural as “myths”, is up to you. But the biblical writing is packed full of claims that, whilst once no doubt were the very thing that so convinced people that this legendary figure must have indeed been the divine messiah of God, were later found out, courtesy of modern science (no thanks to religion) to be impossible tales of the supernatural.


What are "copyist writers"? Do you mean "copyists"? How could these, working very much later, as you stress, ever have known a human Jesus? What point are you making? They had pre-existing, perhaps centuries-old, texts in front of them and copied them as best they could.


How do you know they copied it as “best they could”? You mean absolutely as accurately as possible? They never made any changes? How could you know anything like that? We don’t know what was written in any original first copies of any of the gospels or in Paul’s letters.

But even if the copies were exact in every detail, the names on the gospels are supposedly not the actual writers. The actual writers of those gospels are anonymous; unknown. And none of them wrote ever to say they had known any living Jesus.

And Paul’s letters also make clear that he never knew any living Jesus either.

Who is it that you think ever reliably wrote to confirm that they ever met any living messiah called Jesus?


Or if they were "writers" then they were responsible for the content of the "stories of the supernatural" which flowed from their pens, and they didn't replicate, but invented, material, inspired as you say by religious fanaticism. In this latter case they were mythmakers by definition, unless you want to call them novelists.


They were supposedly (according to bible scholars) copyists, i.e. people copying earlier written or spoken gospels and letters. So what is the point that you are trying claim?

Do you want to say that their stories were “mythical”? And that if I say they were writing “myth” then you want to claim that makes me a “Jesus myther“? You want to claim that means I am claiming Jesus was “mythical”? Is that what you are trying to claim?

Instead of making these silly attempts at trying to place bogus labels on people by erroneous word associations, your time would be better spent trying to produce genuine evidence of anyone who ever credibly wrote to say they had actually met a living Jesus such that they could provide actual evidence of him.


But what is a "copyist writer" if not one of the two things described above? A copyist who doesn't copy? A writer who doesn't compose?


They were supposedly people making written copies of previous written or spoken gospels and letters. But what they wrote as those copies, was filled with what turned out 1800 years later to be shown as impossible tales of the supernatural.

If you want to use the word “myth” to say those gospel writers were producing “myth” when they wrote their stories of supernatural messianic deeds, then that’s your choice and your use of the word “myth”. But either way, unless you want to believe in physically impossible miracles, then the stories are simply untrue.

Do you have any evidence of anyone who ever credibly wrote to claim they had actually met a living human Jesus, and could thus produce their evidence of his existence?

And please don’t tell me again that your evidence is in the bible but that I won’t read it, because afaik the bible does not contain anything remotely like a credible written account from anyone who claimed ever to have met a living Jesus.
 
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