Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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Yes but also

Romans 1:3 ... regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

I suppose these things can be harmonised by the equation descendant of David = Son of God. Solomon was described as both these things.

Paul doesn't make himself abundantly clear. Perhaps he didn't have a clear idea himself? He tries so hard to be all things to all men.

The progressive elaboration of the supernatural element of the Jesus figure from one source to the next within the Gospels.

I suppose if we arrange the texts that way, it would appear to be a progression. But I think it is dubious to use a straight linear model for texts that might represent different communities that might be contemporaries.

Progress would appear to imply a particular timeline, something which is still highly speculative.

Doubts regarding what?

That 'For Paul, Jesus became a special being at the Resurrection' as Paul seems to describe him as his own son at the start of the mission where Jesus is clothed in the likeness of a human.

Aware of them as an abomination perpetrated by idolaters no doubt. I mean not simply that the Jews knew about such things, but that they accepted them sufficiently to evolve a dying and rising Godman religion. I find that improbable for the Second Temple period.

I'm not suggesting pious Jews took this route. Maccabees indicates some Jews were amenable to outside influences, and the fact that the Septuagint was commissioned by Ptolomey II indicates attraction the other way.

That the literature about this new savior religion seems to come from outside Judea indicates that it incubated far from the center of orthodox Judaism.

As you please. But Acts 2:22 has Peter proclaiming Jesus as a man chosen by God and raised back to life by him; he doesn't depict Jesus as a dying and rising God, or as an aspect of the unique Jewish divinity.

It is an interesting speech. The HJ - whose teachings were supposed to be the focus of his career - is replaced entirely by a kind of talisman faith in whom confers magical properties.

Paul is not entirely consistent, I agree: we have both quoted from Romans two passages that are not easy to harmonise.

It does pose problems for trying to pin down Paul as being anything in particular - he seems to be a bit of a chameleon.
 
proudfoot

That's quite a loaded translation of Romans 8:3, by the way. You might want to check that

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/8-3.htm

On the implications of Ehrman's Paul's Jesus having started out as an angel, this may be more than anybody ever wanted to know about Jewish angels, but maybe it will help:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1521-angelology

I also don't know whether any of that is what Bart has in mind.

Apparently whatever God's own son did while disguised as a human would allow humans to be resurrected in bodies like the body of God's own son.
Paul's theory is that a general resurrection someday is a given, Pharisee boilerplate. Righteous Jews and Gentiles will be raised from the dead at the end of days. Paul believed that before he ever heard of Jesus. That's God's will, already revealed before Paul or Jesus was born.

What Jesus' activity after death adds for Paul is that the end of days is in progress. What Jesus did before he was raised didn't cause being raised to become the fate of the righteous. You do want to be righteous, however, now that the music has stopped. Jesus apparently did some teaching about how. Paul has some ideas about that, too.

... the materials like the gospels which are allegedly in circulation at this time ...
I don't know what to think about that. We can be pretty sure from Paul that there were liturgical materials. Paul practiced baptism, he must have said something while dunking people. The instituion narrative also seems liturgical, the way Paul talks about it, and it says something about Jesus and quotes him. Maybe they "reenacted" the Passion? Maybe there was some epic poem or Q&A list (catechism?) you had to learn by heart, no writing. Who knows?

It seems the epistolitry christians were anticipating their savior coming, not coming again. So it doesn't appear that Jesus would be 're-entering' but entering for the first time.
You mean the Christ, the Savior coming for the first time? Maybe. Jesus didn't do a lot of saving during his first life, even in later versions of the story.

I guess it depends on what being 'God's own son' means - are angels thought to be God's own sons?
No, they aren't genetically related to God - whatever that would even mean with neither God nor angel having a physical body. They have the title "Sons of God" anyway, in Job 1.

Sorry if that was insufficiently clear. On the typical HJ hypothesis, Jesus was a mortal who died and did not rise from the grave.
OK, thanks. And yes, whether Jesus rose from the dead isn't even a historical question, and cannot be part of a historical hypothesis. It's plain religious dogma. If Jesus actually existed, then once he was dead, his personal role in history ended there. Most of the story, even the one religious people sell, is what other people, people who survived Jesus, did afterwards anyway

It's not clear to me Paul envisioned a 'return'
Jesus returns, this time in his final immortal form, and everybody else rises when he gets here. The immortal form hasn't been here before, but the person inside has. Coming of Christ = Return of Jesus, I think.

- and whatever became of all those people resurrected before Jesus?
That's one disadvantage of having to go on business correspondence. Paul no doubt had lots of explanations of things, but we only get the few that came up which he thought needed to be told or retold in whatever situation was then urgent.

Christians after Paul have the same problem with Lazarus of Bethany or maybe the widow's son, raised before Jesus. I suppose the difference is that they are still mortal, just not dead anymore. Whatever that means.
 
I don't think there is any indication of 'disciples' at all in the cult represented by the epistles.

The very Epistles were supposedly written by disciples and relatives of Jesus.

The supposed authors of Epistles Peter, James, John were three of the selected disciples of Jesus.


Mark 9:2 KJV
And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.


proudfootz said:
Even epistles allegedly written by Jesus's supposed earthly followers and putative blood brothers have no reminiscence of spending time together.

The NT Epistles are not about the "biography" of Jesus they are doctrinal. It is the Gospels that contain the many versions of the "biography" of Jesus regardless of when they were composed.

proudfootz said:
The earthly ministry doesn't appear until later.

How could the earthly ministry of Jesus come AFTER he was dead?

1. THE Pauline writer claimed the Jews killed Jesus. [Jews are on earth]

2. The Pauline writer claimed Jesus was delivered up in the NIGHT at the Passover. [the Passover Ritual is practiced by Jews.]

The Pauline writings are compatible with the stories of Jesus in the Canon.

The Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline Corpus all show that it was claimed that the Jews Killed Jesus or was directly responsible for his crucifixion at the time of the Passover.

It is extremely clear that Jesus cult Christians did argue the Evil Jews Killed Jesus the Son of their Own God in Jerusalem and it was for that reason the Temple Fell c 70 CE.

1. Aristides' Apology
The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven...... But he himself was pierced by the Jews, and he died and was buried

2. Justin's Dialogue with Trypho
Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One, and His prophets before Him; and now you reject those who hope in Him, and in Him who sent Him--God the Almighty and Maker of all things.


3. Irenaeus' Against Heresies IV
...the Jews had become the slayers of the Lord (which did, indeed, take eternal life away from them)..

4. Tertullian' Answer to the Jews
Which prediction was thus also fulfilled, that “on the first day of unleavened bread” you slew Christ..


5. Hippolytus Treatise Against the Jews 7.
But why, O prophet, tell us, and for what reason, was the temple made desolate?..... it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor, for He is coeternal with the Father.

6. Origen's Against Celsus 1
.....Jesus was the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to death Christ...

7. Lactantius "How the Persecutors Died"
... I find it written, Jesus Christ was crucified by the Jews.
 
With respect to the Galatians. Paul depicts a general accord having been reached in Jersualem, with no indication that Peter, James and John distinguished rank among themselves. Peter is next seen in Antioch. When in company with the diaspora Jew Paul, Peter is chummy with Gentiles. Fellow homeland Jews show up, not parties to the four-way agreement, and Peter becomes, according to Paul, less chummy with the same Gentiles. At the very least, it seems Peter would have had to choose between eating with his people and eating with Paul's people. He chooses to eat with his own.

Where in that personal choice does James exercise any authority over Peter?
I was referring to your
In any case, Paul's top rank among the living is apostle with portfolio, of which there are exactly two: himself (to the Gentiles) and Peter (to the Jews). At no point does Paul depict Rocky taking orders from James, nor from the men sent by James to Antioch.
He depicts Peter changing his behaviour following the visit of these envoys from James, motivated by "fear" of those of the circumcision, rather than the "personal choice" you describe. So the demeanour of the Jews must also have been modified by the envoys' arrival, and standards of observance (a reported Jamesian concern) must have become more rigorous. James exerts authority over Paul in a most startling manner in Acts 21:18-26 but you are perhaps rightly unwilling to accept the reliability of statements about Paul made in that book, so I will not pursue that.
 
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proudfootz

Sorry to deprive you of your terminal "z" in my last post. I didn't catch it until now. Time to reprise my occasional disclaimer:

Disclaimer: it sometimes happens that I misspell a username. If that is the case, then it is unintentional and accidental, even if the misspelling is itself a possibly meaningful string.


Craig

It seems plain that the additional help that James sent to the Antiocih mission while it was in progress, and while Peter was in Antioch and so away from Jerusalem, were Jewish men, who influenced many Jews whom Peter was dealing with. Peter showing "fear" of fellow Jews (not these men specifically) is an interesting image, but then again, many men are swayed by the newcomers' tastes, and there must be Jews who live in Antioch and are looking at the mission, maybe not friendly to it. And, of course, it is Paul, not Peter, who is telling the story, so Peter's mental states are not available to our source, not that Paul would stoop to portray Peter in a bad light or anything.

In any case, Paul left out any inventory of the knives wielded by James' supposed enforcers, so in the absence of coercion, Peter eats where he chooses to eat. Apparently, that's either with Paul, or else with everybody else who's Jewish (including Paul's lieutenant). So, Peter chose, under your theory or any other. And, whether fearful, respectful or merely as a polite concession to his fellow homeland and resident Antiochan Jews, not one of whom except him and Barnabas were party to any "be nice to Gentiles" agreement, Peter had a reason for the choice he made. So what? Don't people usually have reasons for their choices in your experience?

...observance...
Really? Jews don't eat with Gentiles because Gentiles might serve them tref, or serve them using vessels that have been used for serving tref, or what is served has been prepared in the same kitchen as has prepared tref. The origin of the "observance" may be religious, but eating habits reliably become visceral (duh). Observant Jews don't develop the habit of eating tref or what tref might easily have contaminated. The "observance" becomes self enforcing: what turns your stomach reliably inspires you to eat elsewhere. (BTW, just as it's easy for one person to make another person itch or yawn, it is easy to turn another person's stomach, if you know what disgusts them - you don't need a knife or command authority over them. The men from James could have turned a crowd of Jews, Peter included, simply by mentioning that they catch a whiff of pig fat... can't you smell it, too?).

After years of practice, Paul is down with Gentiles, even if they don't wash before meals, never mind the tref. Peter, with less practice, can by an act of will keep his word. I don't know about Barnabas. Apart from those three, why should any other Jew suddenly follow suit, swallow the rising puke, and abandon a lifelong habit?

Where is James' opinion in the matter even mentioned by Paul?

As to Acts 21, you are right that I have many issues with Acts as purported history. I can still comment on a passage apart from that. How does "they," plural, offering Paul political advice which he accepts become James, singular, telling Paul what to do? And even if Paul did accept James' authority, which I don't see happening here, what has that to do with Peter?
 
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proudfootz

Sorry to deprive you of your terminal "z" in my last post. I didn't catch it until now. Time to reprise my occasional disclaimer:

Disclaimer: it sometimes happens that I misspell a username. If that is the case, then it is unintentional and accidental, even if the misspelling is itself a possibly meaningful string.


Craig

It seems plain that the additional help that James sent to the Antiocih mission while it was in progress, and while Peter was in Antioch and so away from Jerusalem, were Jewish men, who influenced many Jews whom Peter was dealing with. Peter showing "fear" of fellow Jews (not these men specifically) is an interesting image, but then again, many men are swayed by the newcomers' tastes, and there must be Jews who live in Antioch and are looking at the mission, maybe not friendly to it. And, of course, it is Paul, not Peter, who is telling the story, so Peter's mental states are not available to our source, not that Paul would stoop to portray Peter in a bad light or anything.

In any case, Paul left out any inventory of the knives wielded by James' supposed enforcers, so in the absence of coercion, Peter eats where he chooses to eat. Apparently, that's either with Paul, or else with everybody else who's Jewish (including Paul's lieutenant). So, Peter chose, under your theory or any other. And, whether fearful, respectful or merely as a polite concession to his fellow homeland and resident Antiochan Jews, not one of whom except him and Barnabas were party to any "be nice to Gentiles" agreement, Peter had a reason for the choice he made. So what? Don't people usually have reasons for their choices in your experience?


Really? Jews don't eat with Gentiles because Gentiles might serve them tref, or serve them using vessels that have been used for serving tref, or what is served has been prepared in the same kitchen as has prepared tref. The origin of the "observance" may be religious, but eating habits reliably become visceral (duh). Observant Jews don't develop the habit of eating tref or what tref might easily have contaminated. The "observance" becomes self enforcing: what turns your stomach reliably inspires you to eat elsewhere. (BTW, just as it's easy for one person to make another person itch or yawn, it is easy to turn another person's stomach, if you know what disgusts them - you don't need a knife or command authority over them. The men from James could have turned a crowd of Jews, Peter included, simply by mentioning that they catch a whiff of pig fat... can't you smell it, too?).

After years of practice, Paul is down with Gentiles, even if they don't wash before meals, never mind the tref. Peter, with less practice, can by an act of will keep his word. I don't know about Barnabas. Apart from those three, why should any other Jew suddenly follow suit, swallow the rising puke, and abandon a lifelong habit?

Where is James' opinion in the matter even mentioned by Paul?

As to Acts 21, you are right that I have many issues with Acts as purported history. I can still comment on a passage apart from that. How does "they," plural, offering Paul political advice which he accepts become James, singular, telling Paul what to do? And even if Paul did accept James' authority, which I don't see happening here, what has that to do with Peter?

Whenever we hear about James, his emphasis always seems to be on keeping the Laws of Moses, without deviating. It is very central to the message apparently.

Paul, on the other hand, sees that as a curse. Paul says he is free to eat anything from the market place.

Peter, apparently doesn't share Paul's idea of the cleanliness of food, at least not according to Acts, until after he has a vision of a magical table-cloth when he is on his way to visit a Roman Centurion.

The concept of eating with Gentiles appears to me to be something coming from later Pauline practice, not the Jerusalem gang.
 
Whenever we hear about James, his emphasis always seems to be on keeping the Laws of Moses, without deviating. It is very central to the message apparently.

Your claim is a known fallacy.

In the Pauline Corpus we hardly hear about James and hear virtually nothing about him keeping the Law of Moses.

1. The first mention of James he is a WITNESS of the Resurrection. [1 Cor. 15]

2. The second mention of James the Apostle he is called the Lord's brother. [Gal. 1.19]

3. The third--James gives the 'green light' for Paul to preach to the Gentiles. [Gal 2.9]

4. The fourth--James eats with the Gentiles. [Gal. 2.12]


In Acts of the Apostles, the name James is found ONLY 5 times even though there are MULTIPLE characters called James and there is NO emphasis on keeping the Law of Moses when they are mentioned.

In fact, a character called James was one of the Jerusalem Church who authorized Paul to preach to the Gentiles and gave letters to Paul which stated that there was NO need to be circumcised and no need to keep the Law.

Acts 15
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard , that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying , Ye must be circumcised , and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment

There is simply no evidence that characters called James emphasized keeping the Laws of Moses.
 
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proudfoot

That's quite a loaded translation of Romans 8:3, by the way. You might want to check that

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/8-3.htm

Thanks for the link!

We are sometimes lumbered with difficulties of translation. It isn't clear to me what you find to be 'loaded' about the Bible Gateway version of the text I linked to.

On the implications of Ehrman's Paul's Jesus having started out as an angel, this may be more than anybody ever wanted to know about Jewish angels, but maybe it will help:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1521-angelology

I also don't know whether any of that is what Bart has in mind.

Nor do I - I haven't had a chance to read this new Jesus book yet.

Paul's theory is that a general resurrection someday is a given, Pharisee boilerplate. Righteous Jews and Gentiles will be raised from the dead at the end of days. Paul believed that before he ever heard of Jesus. That's God's will, already revealed before Paul or Jesus was born.

What Jesus' activity after death adds for Paul is that the end of days is in progress. What Jesus did before he was raised didn't cause being raised to become the fate of the righteous. You do want to be righteous, however, now that the music has stopped. Jesus apparently did some teaching about how. Paul has some ideas about that, too.

I suppose the nub of the controversy is whether Paul's Jesus did this teaching in the recent past in Judea or as a spirit who appears in visions.


I don't know what to think about that. We can be pretty sure from Paul that there were liturgical materials. Paul practiced baptism, he must have said something while dunking people. The institution narrative also seems liturgical, the way Paul talks about it, and it says something about Jesus and quotes him. Maybe they "reenacted" the Passion? Maybe there was some epic poem or Q&A list (catechism?) you had to learn by heart, no writing. Who knows?

I suppose I'm using the word 'gospel' in an idiosyncratic way - what I mean is a pseudo-biographical narrative like the four canonical gospels in contrast to a book of sayings like the Gospel of Thomas or the hypothetical Q and in contrast to the epistles. Certainly I suspect there was some written materials and liturgical stuff that predated Paul.

You mean the Christ, the Savior coming for the first time? Maybe. Jesus didn't do a lot of saving during his first life, even in later versions of the story.

The idea that Jesus will 'come again' in any form seems to be a later development.

No, they aren't genetically related to God - whatever that would even mean with neither God nor angel having a physical body. They have the title "Sons of God" anyway, in Job 1.

Thanks!

OK, thanks. And yes, whether Jesus rose from the dead isn't even a historical question, and cannot be part of a historical hypothesis. It's plain religious dogma. If Jesus actually existed, then once he was dead, his personal role in history ended there. Most of the story, even the one religious people sell, is what other people, people who survived Jesus, did afterwards anyway.

True enough. Jesus, if he ever existed, had the least influence on what was said about him.

Jesus returns, this time in his final immortal form, and everybody else rises when he gets here. The immortal form hasn't been here before, but the person inside has. Coming of Christ = Return of Jesus, I think.

I understand that is the tradition handed down to us.

That's one disadvantage of having to go on business correspondence. Paul no doubt had lots of explanations of things, but we only get the few that came up which he thought needed to be told or retold in whatever situation was then urgent.

True enough - If Paul had any well thought out ideas we only get the sketchiest notion.

Christians after Paul have the same problem with Lazarus of Bethany or maybe the widow's son, raised before Jesus. I suppose the difference is that they are still mortal, just not dead anymore. Whatever that means.

It would seem to cause difficulties if we wanted to harmonize those stories with the notion of Jesus being the first resurrection.

I'm guessing those stories are just part of a separate tradition and wasn't necessarily part of the same cult when composed.
 
The very Epistles were supposedly written by disciples and relatives of Jesus.

The supposed authors of Epistles Peter, James, John were three of the selected disciples of Jesus.

Mark 9:2 KJV


The NT Epistles are not about the "biography" of Jesus they are doctrinal. It is the Gospels that contain the many versions of the "biography" of Jesus regardless of when they were composed.



How could the earthly ministry of Jesus come AFTER he was dead?

1. THE Pauline writer claimed the Jews killed Jesus. [Jews are on earth]

2. The Pauline writer claimed Jesus was delivered up in the NIGHT at the Passover. [the Passover Ritual is practiced by Jews.]

The Pauline writings are compatible with the stories of Jesus in the Canon.

The Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline Corpus all show that it was claimed that the Jews Killed Jesus or was directly responsible for his crucifixion at the time of the Passover.

It is extremely clear that Jesus cult Christians did argue the Evil Jews Killed Jesus the Son of their Own God in Jerusalem and it was for that reason the Temple Fell c 70 CE.

1. Aristides' Apology

2. Justin's Dialogue with Trypho


3. Irenaeus' Against Heresies IV

4. Tertullian' Answer to the Jews


5. Hippolytus Treatise Against the Jews 7.

6. Origen's Against Celsus 1

7. Lactantius "How the Persecutors Died"

Indeed, much of this material seems to come in the 2nd century and later.

Which would seem to reverse the usual HJ trajectory represented as from failed preacher to progressively higher status.
 
In Acts of the Apostles, the name James is found ONLY 5 times even though there are MULTIPLE characters called James and there is NO emphasis on keeping the Law of Moses when they are mentioned.
Say you so? Let's see what weird things you have to say about this, then.
Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 and they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
 
... James exerts authority over Paul in a most startling manner in Acts 21:18-26 but you are perhaps rightly unwilling to accept the reliability of statements about Paul made in that book, so I will not pursue that.

Indeed.
Today I spent some time at the BC&H forum and in the thread "The Paradigmatic Rhetoric of Paul's Seven Authentic Letters", on page three there's a discussion about Acts as a source of information.

This particular post's quotes James Tabor on the appropriateness of Acts:
...Professor James Tabor provides what I believe to be useful guidelines for Acts. Tabor is the chair of religious studies at the University of North Carolina and specializes on Paul and Christian origins. In his book, "Paul and Jesus " (2012), which is primarily about Paul, Tabor writes (p. 229-230),

"Many historians are agreed that it merits the label, 'Use Sparingly with Extreme Caution.' As a general working method I have adopted the following three principles:

1. Never accept anything in Acts over Paul's own account in his seven genuine letters.

2. Cautiously consider Acts if it agrees with Paul's letters and one can detect no obvious biases.

3. Consider the independent information that Acts provides of interest but not of interpretive historical use."

Is this point of view part of the mainstream Academic consensus or is James Tabor's take on Acts an outlier?





... Observant Jews don't develop the habit of eating tref or what tref might easily have contaminated. The "observance" becomes self enforcing: what turns your stomach reliably inspires you to eat elsewhere. (BTW, just as it's easy for one person to make another person itch or yawn, it is easy to turn another person's stomach, if you know what disgusts them - you don't need a knife or command authority over them. The men from James could have turned a crowd of Jews, Peter included, simply by mentioning that they catch a whiff of pig fat... can't you smell it, too?).

After years of practice, Paul is down with Gentiles, even if they don't wash before meals, never mind the tref. Peter, with less practice, can by an act of will keep his word. I don't know about Barnabas. Apart from those three, why should any other Jew suddenly follow suit, swallow the rising puke, and abandon a lifelong habit? ...

That's a different way of seeing the conflict between early Christians and observing Jews, one I hadn't considered before.
 
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the better angels

proudfootz

On the implications of Ehrman's Paul's Jesus having started out as an angel, this may be more than anybody ever wanted to know about Jewish angels, but maybe it will help:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1521-angelology

I also don't know whether any of that is what Bart has in mind.

I just put my focus on the early bit, as I'm not sure if the talmudic and midrashic stuff is pertinent to the time period we are interested in.

It would appear that angels do have distinct personalities and some form of free will - as they can differ in opinions and have wrong opinions (according to the article).

They can interact with humans on the earthly plane (fathering children with women on occasion as in Book of Genesis) but also interact with heavenly objects (eating some sort of heavenly bread as an example). It is implied they existed before creation.

There does not appear to be any notion of mortals becoming angels - they are distinct from humans.

Thanks again for the link!
 
Say you so? Let's see what weird things you have to say about this, then.

As usual, your claims are a failure of facts. You omitted the very very verse that exposes your fallacies.

You conveniently forgot to quote Acts 21.25.

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 and they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.


Acts 21.25
As touching the Gentiles which believe , we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
James and the Jerusalem Church in Acts had written letters stating that they gave NO commandment to be circumcised or observe the Laws.

It was a Sect of the PHARISEES that wanted them to be circumcised and to follow the Law.

Acts 15. 5
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed , saying , That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Acts 15.1
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Characters called James in the Pauline writings and Acts of the Apostles did NOT preach or tell Gentiles that they must be circumcised and follow the Law to be saved.

It was a SECT of the PHARISEES--Not James.

Please, just go and read the ENTIRE Acts and the Pauline Corpus.
 
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Characters called James in the Pauline writings and Acts of the Apostles did NOT preach or tell Gentiles that they must be circumcised and follow the Law to be saved.

It was a SECT of the PHARISEES--Not James.

Please, just go and read the ENTIRE Acts and the Pauline Corpus.
What nonsense! Here is what you wrote.
In Acts of the Apostles, the name James is found ONLY 5 times even though there are MULTIPLE characters called James and there is NO emphasis on keeping the Law of Moses when they are mentioned.
Yes there is such emphasis when James is mentioned, as Acts 21:18-26 shows. Stop spouting balderdash.

Prediction. Your next repeated word will be "balderdash".
 
What nonsense! Here is what you wrote. Yes there is such emphasis when James is mentioned, as Acts 21:18-26 shows. Stop spouting balderdash.

Prediction. Your next repeated word will be "balderdash".

What a big lie.

I merely exposed Brainache's fallacious statement that "Whenever we hear about James, his emphasis always seems to be on keeping the Laws of Moses, without deviating. It is very central to the message apparently".

Brainache's claim is without a shred of evidence in the Pauline Corpus and Acts of the Apostles.

1. When we read about James in the Pauline Corpus NOTHING is mentioned about James' emphasis on "keeping of the Law".

2. When we read about the Multiple characters called James in Acts, it is claimed James gave NO commandment that Gentiles should be circumcised and observe the Law.
 
When we read about James in the Pauline Corpus NOTHING is mentioned about James' emphasis on "keeping of the Law".
Oh, I think I'm going to faint seeing you write such lies. You should wash your mouth out with soap, because now you're pretending you were talking about the Pauline Corpus, when you said "Acts", so I'm going to faint at the horror of reading such mendacious things. You wrote this.
When we read about the Multiple characters called James in Acts, it is claimed James gave NO commandment that Gentiles should be circumcised and observe the Law.
OOOOH! I think I'm going to totally freak out because Acts says exactly what you say it doesn't say. Read it at 21:21
... and they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children
That's James talking, and he's very very angry with Paul. I never said and you know I never said that James said Gentiles should be circumcised. And neither did you. What you said was
In Acts of the Apostles, the name James is found ONLY 5 times even though there are MULTIPLE characters called James and there is NO emphasis on keeping the Law of Moses when they are mentioned.
And that's nonsense; and now you are saying I said James said Gentiles should be circumcised and that's a bad thing to say because what James said about Gentiles was this, as you know
Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
So no circumcision.

I really think you're having a joke at my expense attributing things to me that I never wrote about James.
 
Brainache

It would be very nice if we knew even a little bit more about the Jerusalem church. But apparently, all the fine detail is simply lost. Paul and they fight about accommodating Gentiles, that seems clear, but you get the sense they had other disagreements, too, even if Paul does reassure the reader that they're all in essential agreement. Maybe so. It would have been nice to hear it from them, though.

pakeha

Glad you liked it. Sometimes simple human factors trump great ideas and ideals.

proudfootz

There does not appear to be any notion of mortals becoming angels - they are distinct from humans..
Right, and it will be interesting to see how Bart thinks that Paul managed to get an angel into a meat suit, despite the distinctiveness.

Anyway, glad you liked the link - the Jewish Encyclopedia has a lot of interesting stuff. (I agree that the later material probably is too far removed from Paul to help us or Bart).

You and I seem to be pretty much together in your earlier post. There is a dramatic future "coming to Earth" event taught in Paul (something of general scale, not just appearances to individuals and selected groups), at 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

We do not want you to be unaware, brothers, about those who have fallen asleep, so that you may not grieve like the rest, who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so too will God, through Jesus, bring with him those who have fallen asleep.Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep.

For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, console one another with these words.
 
Brainache

It would be very nice if we knew even a little bit more about the Jerusalem church. But apparently, all the fine detail is simply lost. Paul and they fight about accommodating Gentiles, that seems clear, but you get the sense they had other disagreements, too, even if Paul does reassure the reader that they're all in essential agreement. Maybe so. It would have been nice to hear it from them, though.

...

This is what I believe we have in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The Habakkuk pesher:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/DeadSeaScrolls/1QpHab_pesher_habakkuk.html

The Community Rule:
http://www.essene.com/History&Essenes/md.htm

4QMMT:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/DeadSeaScrolls/4Q397-399_MMT_eisenman.html

The Damascus Covenant:
http://www.essene.com/History&Essenes/cd.htm

The War Rule:
http://www.gnosis.org/library/dss/dss-lc-warrule.htm

I know this is a controversial idea, but it makes sense to me.
 
A piece in late March at the Huffington Post deals with Ehrman's latest book, "How God Became Jesus" --

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/25/bart-ehrman-jesus-god_n_5029457.html?utm_hp_ref=religion

At one point, the writer states --


"Perhaps the biggest surprise for Ehrman was that Paul, the earliest New Testament author, had a very exalted view of Jesus, believing that Jesus existed in divine form before he was incarnate as a human being. Ehrman concludes that Paul must have believed Jesus was an angel who became human and afterward was exalted to godhood."


One poster on another board has noted what this author says here and remarks: "So Ehrman has finally come around to acknowledging the mythicist view."

But another poster remarks : "That's not the mythicist view, but okay. Whatever helps you sleep at night."

But still another poster -- and the reason I bring this up here is because this third poster is our own Pakeha -- opines in reference to the first poster's "come around" remark: "That's my take as well."

My query to this board: Does the Huffington Post description of Ehrman's take on Paul tally with the mythicist view? True or False?

Stone
 
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