Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Chris_Halkides]

Novelli's ill-conceived analogy concerning analysis of one or two cells of DNA

In arguing for further testing of the knife in 2011 Professor Novelli said that they routinely studied 1-2 cells' worth of DNA in his laboratory. The CSC wrote in 2013, "Novelli, geneticist of undisputable fame recognized by the same Court (p. 79 sent.) on the availability of equipment able of operate with safety also quantities of less than ten picograms, in the areas of diagnostic character (even on embryos) in which the claim to certainty is certainly no less pressing than that which animates the legal field, the Court rejected that proposal, assuming that the methods to which Prof. Novelli had referred were "in the experimental phase” (p. 84 sent.), thus freely interpreting and misrepresenting the assumption of bias, which in fact was to remember the use of these diagnostic methods in areas in which you can be certain of the result."

Angela von Daal wrote, "The use of PCR for analysis of very low levels of DNA in the field of pre-implantation genetic diagnosis (PGD) has been used to justify general acceptance of LCN analysis in the wider scientific community(12) . This argument is flawed. PGD analysis is not analogous to LCN analysis for several reasons. PGD uses pristine cellular DNA from a single source, whereas forensic LCN samples are mostly mixtures and are likely in a state of apoptosis. The complexities of profile interpretation issues seen with STR analysis (e.g., stutter) are not an issue for PGD testing(13) . However the most significant difference is that the samples derived from the mother, father and embryo are single-source and the parental samples are of known genotype." (highlighting mine)

Reference 12 is People v. Hemant Megnath, 2010 N.Y. Slip Op 20037; 2010 N.Y. Misc. Lexis 223.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill

For me your post demonstrates my point about the PIP\PGP reality bubble, most people don’t know or really care about the likes of Edward McCall, Harry Rag, Andrea Vogt or Machiavelli.

The extraordinary rendition case involving CIA agents had geopolitical implications and we know via wikileaks that American government officials requested their Italian government counterparts to try and stop the case; the Italian judiciary ignored the request and the case went ahead with the trial.

This is a murder case involving two Italians and an American with UK murder victim.

Well, at lest I am part of YOUR reality bubble....

Your point is partially well taken - however those are the people who I have access to, if I knew who they were. This case with Meredith Kercher as the victim is what we are talking about.

Edward McCall's anonymous Wiki used to be one of the top findings in a websearch, and has just recently been supplanted by the IIP Wiki. It is germane who Edward McCall is given that people with various "say-so's" in this thing actually do go to English-language websites when trying to sort out what this is about.

It is unclear if all that goes on here on these threads has an impact in the courtroom....but it is exceedingly clear that once officers of various agencies go home, kick off their shoes and fire up the iPad (indeed, if it had ever been turned off) they DO read what is written here in these threads. Trust me on this one.

You are really down on "reality bubbles" these days. I suppose that's supposed to be an ad hominem something or other to discount the conversation, rather than deal with it.... given that you yourself participate in it.

It's like wandering into a cafeteria conversation about something, listening for a minute and then accusing the participants in the conversation: "Well, you're only trading your own ignorance."

That very well could be true. But for a poster here who has steadfastly refuse to express an opinion on anything it seems a tad disingenuous.... your mileage obviously varies.

 

[Desert Fox]

There are not two legitimate sides to all discussions. . . .
Do Anti-Vaxxers have a legitimate side?
Do Pro Homeopathy?
Do Creationists?

 

[acbytesla]

Sound sensible advice, unless of course they are the murder victim.

Well, if the police ask to speak to the murder victim, I'd recommend that they can talk as much as they want.

I don't really buy that many students are not studying abroad because of the tragedies that befell either Amanda Knox or Meredith Kercher. They may think about it for a moment, but I doubt it keeps them from actually going.

Horrible things happen half way across the world and right next door as well. There was a murder last year about a block from my house in a typical suburban neighborhood. Two days ago a high school student in Murrysville, Pennsylvania stabbed 20 people. Most college students are aware of this. And most college students that would consider going abroad to school, feel invincible.

This really isn't a competition about what was and is the worse tragedy. But more and more, I have to start to think that maybe Amanda and Raffaele have it worse than Meredith.

Meredith experienced a horrible thing that night. But it was maybe a half hour of terror and pain. In many ways, I feel worse for Meredith's parents. Because they are faced without the daughter they loved and it must eat at them and goes on and on.

Amanda and Raffaele too, have been living a nightmare. One that never seems to end. A nightmare from which they can't wake up. A nightmare that has been going on seven long years now. One of which is likely to continue for another two to as many as seven more years before it is settled an then the possibility of spending another twenty plus years of their young lives behind bars.

Just imagine that Coulsdon. Imagine being Raffaele's or Amanda's shoes. Imagine that you did nothing wrong and you faced what they have and will continue to face for countless more years. Lawyers, bars, guards, no privacy, guilt, shame, fear and it never stops.

And they will always have morons whispering behind their backs and people that are suspicious. Hester Prynne has nothing on Amanda or Raffaele.

 

[Bill Williams]

Sound sensible advice, unless of course they are the murder victim.

Well, if the police ask to speak to the murder victim, I'd recommend that they can talk as much as they want.

I don't really buy that many students are not studying abroad because of the tragedies that befell either Amanda Knox or Meredith Kercher. They may think about it for a moment, but I doubt it keeps them from actually going.

Horrible things happen half way across the world and right next door as well. There was a murder last year about a block from my house in a typical suburban neighborhood. Two days ago a high school student in Murrysville, Pennsylvania stabbed 20 people. Most college students are aware of this. And most college students that would consider going abroad to school, feel invincible.

They actually DO get to talk to the victim. It's called forensics.

The one last thing Meredith Kercher gave to the world, she gave after she died. She screamed...."Take my body temperature! You'll be able to catch the guy. Look at whose DNA is inside me.... don't bother with my firend's 'biological material' mixed with my blood in the very bathroom we shared.... are you idiots or something? Was I killed in vain just to promote your careers as police? Will I get caught in an internecine war in Italian judicial politics?"

Meredith screamed who her killer was, it was Guede. Meredith also screamed that her friend Knox had nothing to do with it. And like Raffaele, she wonders what he has to do with this.....

 

[Grinder]

My terms as you put are no different than anyone else who posts here, thank you for your acceptance. Coulsdonites; really? Do you believe the main topic of conversation in Seattle is this case or even in Amanda's neighbourhood or wherever Raffaele is living? I have referred to the PIP\PGP bubble outside of that life just goes on.

The case is a subject of conversation here in Seattle but certainly isn't the main topic. What is the main topic in Coulsdon.

I have no desire to play the game of “gotcha” with regards the evidence and for me there isn’t anything new being discussed, it is essentially repetition. I am interested in what will be in the motivations, what will be in the defence teams appeals, will they focus on the evidence as many here discuss, could their appeal make any reference to Guede’s final motivations; can they even mount a defence based purely on evidence or do they have to address definitions or interpretation of Italian criminal codes used in the motivations.

I'm curious why and in what you are interested regarding the motivations.

What difference does it make to you what the defense says or whether they use material we discuss here?

From the last appeal they may discuss more than technicalities.

I merely stated that some university students in the UK might be understandably concerned with their safety given Meredith’s murder. You and others are entitled to believe as you wish, I don’t see this as some kind of contest. Indeed, when my daughter arranged her year abroad my concerns were about her being hurt or worse, it still is whenever any of my children travel.

What percentage of English students have been murdered or assaulted when studying abroad in the last decade or any other time period?

What I don't understand at all is what draws you here? We really don't need to be reminded that the Italian court system will make the decision over there and then if the conviction is confirmed they may ask for extradition. If they do ask, then the US will review the request.

 

[Grinder]

They actually DO get to talk to the victim. It's called forensics.

.

Bill I think you are over the top and wrong besides. I removed most of it from this response because I hope you delete it.

The taking of the temperature 15 hours after the murder wouldn't have given us anymore time certainty then we have now. It is unknown how long the duvet was on her, how long the door was open, whether the heat was on all night etc. etc.

I personally find it wrong for either side to pretend to be speaking for Meredith.

 

[Bill Williams]

What I don't understand at all is what draws you here? We really don't need to be reminded that the Italian court system will make the decision over there and then if the conviction is confirmed they may ask for extradition. If they do ask, then the US will review the request.

What I don't understand is why every once in a while I'm jealous that Grinder has asked the question I wish I 'd asked. The poster you're responding to expresses no opinion whatsoever....

... but is a bit like John Follain in method. in "A Death in Italy", John Follain would not express an opinion as the author; yet would sprinkle his text with guilt-sounding lines.... like when the Postal Police see Filomena's room and remark, "This is not burglary," Follain immediately inserts the sentence.... "Amanda and Raffaele say nothing."

Follain wants the reader to believe that their silence means something sinister.... by not saying it. Follain also inserts (out of the blue) alleged interest by Knox in her own knickers. This is supposed to insert into his narrative that there actually is a Foxy Knoxy out there, yet for fair minded readers it makes us feel that it's Follain who is inordinately interested in women's underwear.

I will show my own racial bias here.... it must be an English thing. Someone drops in here to remind us that the courts will decide what the courts will decide, and that these decisions will form an "official record."

Yet that person will not express an opinion about that official record to save his life. This is of course his right, and well, well within the terms of reference on this thread-service.

But this person will also come out of the blue to call to our attention the writings of Harry Rag, and then when those writings are talked about, will accuse those talking about it as being in some sort of "bubble" that no one cares about.

Of the many mysteries of this case, this poster is one of them. What is not a mystery is that Rudy Guede alone murdered Meredith Kercher.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill I think you are over the top and wrong besides. I removed most of it from this response because I hope you delete it.

The taking of the temperature 15 hours after the murder wouldn't have given us anymore time certainty then we have now. It is unknown how long the duvet was on her, how long the door was open, whether the heat was on all night etc. etc.

I personally find it wrong for either side to pretend to be speaking for Meredith.

You're kidding, right?

Why then do forensics at all, if the victim, through forensic analysis, does not give information.

With all due respect, you've misread my post. Even Mignini admitted that it was a mistake not to take body temperature immediately. It is the most basic forensic measure to allow the victim to tell investigators what is what.

You've misread my post. Obviously, anyone speaking for Meredith at this point borders on the obscene, outside of forensics.

Have you seen Peter Quennell's tribute to Meredith, and what she'd be seeing of Perugia if she were still alive?

 

[acbytesla]

They actually DO get to talk to the victim. It's called forensics.

The one last thing Meredith Kercher gave to the world, she gave after she died. She screamed...."Take my body temperature! You'll be able to catch the guy. Look at whose DNA is inside me.... don't bother with my firend's 'biological material' mixed with my blood in the very bathroom we shared.... are you idiots or something? Was I killed in vain just to promote your careers as police? Will I get caught in an internecine war in Italian judicial politics?"

Meredith screamed who her killer was, it was Guede. Meredith also screamed that her friend Knox had nothing to do with it. And like Raffaele, she wonders what he has to do with this.....

I know Bill....All this is is sad.

 

[Desert Fox]

I personally find it wrong for either side to pretend to be speaking for Meredith.

Depends on what is meant. . . .I think it is fair to argue that she spoke forensically.

 

[Grinder]

You're kidding, right?

Why then do forensics at all, if the victim, through forensic analysis, does not give information.

With all due respect, you've misread my post. Even Mignini admitted that it was a mistake not to take body temperature immediately. It is the most basic forensic measure to allow the victim to tell investigators what is what.

You've misread my post. Obviously, anyone speaking for Meredith at this point borders on the obscene, outside of forensics.

Have you seen Peter Quennell's tribute to Meredith, and what she'd be seeing of Perugia if she were still alive?

It may have been a mistake but it wouldn't narrow the TOD to a time frame that is better than one we have.

It is a stupid argument to say that doing forensics is letting the dead talk. Yes, it is a line out of investigators' handbooks but not in the personal way you did it in regards to Coulsdon.

You have the strangest habit of using snippets from Massei, Follain and Mignini when in general you think they are full of it.

Yes, I've seen PQ's crap and that's why I said both sides.

I think it would be better not to put your complaints in Meredith's voice.

 

[Welshman]

.
Of course it would Coulsdon, and so would being charged with a murder that they did not commit while the prosecutor refers to the local burglar who obviously committed the murder as 'poor Rudy'.

BTW, Welshman, nice post. Keep them coming.
.

Thank you for praising my post. I am disappointed no one has answered the issue raised in my post. Another factor which indicated the prosecution had no case was relying on dubious forensic evidence. For instance, the knife did not match the wounds. Basic logic says a knife should match the wounds and if a knife does not match the wounds, it can not be the murder weapon. Having to resort to using evidence which could not be used in a crime is a sign of desperation and a clear sign the prosecution had no evidence against Amanda and Raffaele. It is beyond me how the PGP can argue the prosecution had a strong case when the best the prosecution could come up with was a knife which did not match the wounds.

 

[Bill Williams]

It may have been a mistake but it wouldn't narrow the TOD to a time frame that is better than one we have.

It is a stupid argument to say that doing forensics is letting the dead talk. Yes, it is a line out of investigators' handbooks but not in the personal way you did it in regards to Coulsdon.

You have the strangest habit of using snippets from Massei, Follain and Mignini when in general you think they are full of it.

Yes, I've seen PQ's crap and that's why I said both sides.

I think it would be better not to put your complaints in Meredith's voice.

That is the nub of your complaint. Why didn't you just say so? You do not have to apologize that you do not like this way of putting what forensics does.

At least you get the point being made here... the dead DO talk, through forensics.

Like CoulsdonUK, though, I'll simply post the way I wish. I do not believe I am out of line in so doing. For Pete's sake (and by that I mean Peter Quennell) at least there is some basis for putting forensics into Meredith's voice than the crap Quennell engages in.

 

[Bill Williams]

I cannot tell from this Google Translate, if Mignini is going to sue Sollecito and Gumbel, or is thinking of doing it. It seems Mignini's gripe is that "Honor Bound" acc. to Mignini defames him by suggesting that his wrongful prosecution of Sollecito and his former American girlfriend was only to divert attention from Mignini's Monster of Florence troubles.

http://m.ilmessaggero.it/m/messaggero/articolo/UMBRIA/612466
​

Can anyone help with the Italian?

 

[Strozzi]

I think they may very well be trying to hold him for a few more years

The PLE have a vested interest in keeping Guede out of the reach of journalists. Note how they locked up Toto when he became a witness, which of course conveniently prevented journalists from getting their hands on him and recording how unreliable and pliable he was.

I still believe a journalist will succeed in getting cozy with Guede and record Guede stating things that will be damaging to the prosecutors. Perugia police and prosecutors have a lot at risk if/when Guede is free.

 

[JREF2010]

But poll also found that more than 84% of the students surveyed said they were aware of, and frightened by, the case of Amanda Knox and cited it as a reason why they would think twice before spending a semester in Italy.

I find this interesting, because it is oft said how irrelevant the Knox case is. I hope there is leverage available from this poll. I see no reason why open minded American students can not be mobilised to research and illuminate the case, and chip away at the badly educated.

http://www.gazzettadelsud.it/news/e...taly-but-wary-after-Knox-case--poll-says.html

It is interesting. These "kids" are intelligent adults for the most part, young and sharp, college students. They know unfairness and corruption when they see it.

They know the illogical facts of a murder/rape case when the semen stain isn't tested from the pillow under the victims body.

Which just might be the key to the appeal being accepted. you think?

 

[acbytesla]

I cannot tell from this Google Translate, if Mignini is going to sue Sollecito and Gumbel, or is thinking of doing it. It seems Mignini's gripe is that "Honor Bound" acc. to Mignini defames him by suggesting that his wrongful prosecution of Sollecito and his former American girlfriend was only to divert attention from Mignini's Monster of Florence troubles.

http://m.ilmessaggero.it/m/messaggero/articolo/UMBRIA/612466
​

Can anyone help with the Italian?

Very hard to tell. It seems to say that because Raffaele said "that Mignini approach was especially vindictive." Florentine PM Giuliano Giambartolomei has enough for charges of defamation.

But I really doubt that there are actual charges against Raffaele as I would imagine that it would have made other papers outside of just the one. My guess is that Giambartolomei was either mouthing off to the press, because he can and that brings Giambartolomei press or he is doing it for his associate Mignini.

There certainly wouldn't be a case for defamation or liable in the US, In the US, Raffaele's accusation of Mignini's motive would constitute an opinion, not a statement of fact. And stating even a mistaken opinion about another's motive could never constitute defamation.

 

[Supercalifragilistic]

Very hard to tell. It seems to say that because Raffaele said "that Mignini approach was especially vindictive." Florentine PM Giuliano Giambartolomei has enough for charges of defamation.

But I really doubt that there are actual charges against Raffaele as I would imagine that it would have made other papers outside of just the one. My guess is that Giambartolomei was either mouthing off to the press, because he can and that brings Giambartolomei press or he is doing it for his associate Mignini.
There certainly wouldn't be a case for defamation or liable in the US, In the US, Raffaele's accusation of Mignini's motive would constitute an opinion, not a statement of fact. And stating even a mistaken opinion about another's motive could never constitute defamation.

Have you read and comprehended what you typed. This is not a US case.

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Edited for Rules 0 and 12.

 

[Magister]

About the cat . . .

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/what-happened-downstairs/

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/blood-evidence-downstairs-apartment/

My previous post.....
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9759065&postcount=2254

Human blood found in the downstairs apartment.
If not Rudy Guede's then whose?

Anyone like to discuss?