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Wherein Bill Donohue defends the Inquisition

Although surely you have to distinguish apologists from revisionists. The revisionists are presumably those historians who began to dispel the propaganda around the Black Legend; I suppose the two most prominent are Peters ('Inquisition'), and Kamen ('The Spanish Inquisition').

I doubt that Peters and Kamen would say that the various inquisitions were a 'good thing'.

I suppose the Black Legend arose partly from Protestant anti-Catholic views, and partly from English patriotism, which liked to portray Spain as a land of torture dungeons, administered by fanatical Jesuits, preferably illustrated with graphic pictures of torture.
 
That's a very unsound argument. The apologists are saying not that the Inquisition simply killed far fewer than some maniacs contend, but that it was a good thing. My statement was that it killed far more than the relatively small number murdered judicially through its activities, and that it terrorised, plundered and otherwise burdened society. It was a bad thing.

Your argument is like this: the "satanic panic" hysteria about mass organised abuse of children was nonsense. Therefore the real much smaller number of children who were being abused is a good thing.
You mean, my argument is: "The Inquisition killed 4000 instead of one million. Therefore the real much smaller number of people killed is a good thing"?

If that is my argument, then I agree with you that it is a terrible one indeed!
 
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You mean, my argument is: "The Inquisition killed 4000 instead of one million. Therefore the real much smaller number of people killed is a good thing"?

If that is my argument, then I agree with you that it is a terrible one indeed!

I didn't think that that was your argument, although I suppose you would know better than me! I thought the argument is that the revisionist historians began to peel back the layers of propaganda about the Black Legend, and inter alia, argued that the statistics for deaths during the various inquisitions had been exaggerated, sometimes given as millions or even tens of millions.

This doesn't seem to connect with saying that the inquisitions were a 'good thing', does it? I suppose you can cite the argument that the inquisition courts were more lenient than secular ones, but that doesn't mean they were a good thing, does it? I suppose for many people, being flogged would be better than being executed, but it doesn't mean that being flogged is good.
 
Yeah, I can assure you that that definitely wasn't my argument. But no matter. The line between revisionism and apologetics is pretty thin, so what one person sees as revisionism another sees as apologetics.

Still, it's been a good thread, where I've learned new things, which is a criterion of a good thread! I think that the Inquisitions weren't as bad as commonly thought, which if that is a historical truth needs to be recognized (as revisionism and not apologetics!) On the other hand, even if "only" 4000 people were killed, we need to consider the wider impact on society at the time in terms of the Inquisitions being a tool of oppression.
 
Yeah, I can assure you that that definitely wasn't my argument. But no matter. The line between revisionism and apologetics is pretty thin, so what one person sees as revisionism another sees as apologetics.

Still, it's been a good thread, where I've learned new things, which is a criterion of a good thread! I think that the Inquisitions weren't as bad as commonly thought, which if that is a historical truth needs to be recognized (as revisionism and not apologetics!) On the other hand, even if "only" 4000 people were killed, we need to consider the wider impact on society at the time in terms of the Inquisitions being a tool of oppression.
Not "only" 4000 were killed. That may be a plausible number of official executions. The real death toll includes for example, as stated above, the much larger number who died during the expulsions of Jews and Moriscos from Spain and Portugal; the people who died from deprivation because they were dependants of arrested persons whose property had been sequestered, and very many others. And the idea that the Inquisition was motivated by the protection of heretics against mob violence or secular harassment is ludicrous. It multiplied the number of victims by trawling the population seeking confessions and denunciations, and then killed a few, imprisoned more and plundered almost all, sharing the loot with political and religious hierarchical bosses. It was a damnable and loathsome band of oppressors.
 
Also let's not forget an even more sinister trick, the Edicts Of Grace, such as the one from 1609, in which persons who came forth, denounced themselves and gave a "full" confession (again, read: accused others too) would be exempt from confiscating their property. The trip of Alonso de Salazar to collect witchcraft confessions produced about 1800 confessions of witchcraft, out of which about 1400 from children between the ages of 7 and 14. And about 5000 more persons named as part of those "full" confessions.

Also while it's true that the charges of witchcraft were dropped in the end, actually it was mostly Salazar's uphill battle to get them dropped. There were plenty of more powerful inquisitors (e.g., Alonso de Becerra y Holquin and Juan de Valle Alvarado) who wanted to actually drag all those 5000 to a torture chamber and get to the bottom of it.

Salazar did some great rhetoric to steer around the repeated stating by his coleagues that, yeah, but we all know that witchcraft is real and the Devil can grant such powers to his followers, and we have doctors of theology saying so. Effectively he conceded that yeah, nobody is doubting that, but the question is, did it happen in these specific cases... then ended up exactly doubting that such powers are even possible without someone actually being God or the Devil.

What we have is less of a case of the Inquisition on the whole being smarter than that, and more of a case of very few people within it, like the aforementioned Alonso de Salazar, who took it upon themselves to be the witches advocate (at great personal risk, I might add, as it was also a case that "everyone knows" only a witch would side with another witch) against the majority opinion. And were lucky enough to out-rhetoric the others. There were moments when it could go either way.

But more importantly it's a false implication to say that yeah, the Spanish Inquisition had educated theologians and those decided witchcraft isn't real. Actually the majority of its educated theologians were convinced it's very real. It's only because of good men like Salazar that those were stopped.
 
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0075.html

Madden goes on to write that the "Black Legend" of the horrific Spanish Inquisition developed as part of a "propaganda war" by the Protestants after the 16th Century CE:
This is only a sideshow, but it goes to Madden's credibility. I quote the whole paragraph:
By the mid-16th century, Spain was the wealthiest and most powerful country in Europe. King Philip II saw himself and his countrymen as faithful defenders of the Catholic Church. Less wealthy and less powerful were Europe's Protestant areas, including the Netherlands, northern Germany, and England. But they did have a potent new weapon: the printing press. Although the Spanish defeated Protestants on the battlefield, they would lose the propaganda war. These were the years when the famous "Black Legend" of Spain was forged. Innumerable books and pamphlets poured from northern presses accusing the Spanish Empire of inhuman depravity and horrible atrocities in the New World. Opulent Spain was cast as a place of darkness, ignorance, and evil. Although modern scholars have long ago discarded the Black Legend, it still remains very much alive today. Quick: Think of a good conquistador.
The Netherlands less wealthy than Spain? I very much doubt that, Flanders had always been an economic powerhouse, both in (wool) industry and in trade, and Holland was the upcoming kid on the block. The wealth of the Dutch Republic did not come out of the blue.

And those "defeats on the battlefield"? Does he mean the success Spain had in its war against England with the Spanish Armada? Or the success in the Eighty Years War, where part of its empire successfully seceded (the only success I can think of there is in keeping Flanders and most of Brabant). Or the success in the Thirty Years War against Gustavus Adolphus? :rolleyes: By the end of the Eighty and Thirty Years Wars at the peace of Westphalia, Spain had been reduced to a third-rate power, with England, France and the Dutch Republic vying for dominance in Western Europe.

ETA: and as to propaganda war, the main weapon - at least in the Netherlands - was simply the observable truth of how the Spanish operated over here. The ruthless inquisition against heretics, Duke Alba's "Blood Council", and the behaviour of the army (e.g., the Spanish Fury against Antwerp and the massacre of Naarden) legitimately gave rise to the image of the Spanish as cruel.
 
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This is only a sideshow, but it goes to Madden's credibility. I quote the whole paragraph:
I think the Madden passage is nonsense. Thank you for citing it.

The Spanish régime in the Netherlands was very oppressive; the idea that Spain was slandered simply because it became the innocent subject of propagandist legends, allied with the throwaway line "Think of a good conquistador"; all this is very "disingenuous" (I think that's the current polite expression) on Madden's part.
 
There is no such crime as heresy.

Or am I missing something?
Crimes as such are social constructs, products of the society that criminalises certain behaviour.

Here's its early publication history in wiki.

I'm aware of it's history. I've read it and have several copies. As I stated it enjoyed no official church recognition or status.

If it was so dangerous, why did it not join so many better works on the Index?
You misquote me; I stated that "Kramer was widely regarded within the church as a dangerous idiot".

Why was it not put on the Index?
Probably because it didn't come within the scope of the Congregation, i.e. it wasn't overtly heretical. I would point out, and this is mentioned in the wiki page you quoted, that the RCC condemned the book not long after it was first published and the Spanish Inquisition issued a cautionary note that the book wasn't to be believed.
 
hey had to kill the heretics to save them.
Exactly. That was the mindset.

From the first link:

The medieval inquisition started life in a series of papal bulls on heresy, in particular Lucius III’s Ad abolendum of 1184 and Innocent III’s Cum ex officii nostri of 1207. These defined the crime of heresy, imparted the duty of the church to root it out and equated it with treason against the state. It was always the case that the church was seeking to persuade rather than enforce but recognised that these efforts had failed and that stronger measures were required

Here's a complete misrepresentation:

Church courts of the Middle Ages had a deserved reputation for being far more lenient than their secular equivalents and this caused tension when the jurisdictions crossed. Henry II of England was particularly displeased about this in his dispute with the church that led to the murder of St Thomas á Beckett. For instance, the secular punishment for sodomy and bestiality was death right up to the nineteenth in most European countries but a church court was more likely to send the miscreant off on a pilgrimage.

Church courts were used to try clerics, not heretics.
'Benefit of Clergy' rendering someone subject to the more lenient jurisdiction of church courts was widely abused.

I'd also like to clarify one further thing, since the BS apologetics make it sound like it totally was the secular authorities who, on their own, wanted to burn those guys if the church relinquished it to them.

In reality how it worked is that the heretic was given to the secular authorities together with a recommendation of what to do with him. Now where those authorities were powerful nobles, they actually sometimes ignored the recommendation, and dished out a milder punishment instead. But for most other people it was only as much a recommendation as when Don Giovanni 'The Kneecapper' recommends you pay your protection money already.

Refusing the church's guidance would make those authorities suspect of heresy. And while you could imagine a stalemate where your successor refuses to execute you and so on, remember that only killing was outside their jurisdiction. Prison up to life they could do themselves. So was any amount of torture.
Exactly/

The locals were doing the killings in a disorganized manner so they took over and killed them in a systematic manner somehow saving lives.:eek:
Pretty much. That said the Inquisitorial system was rather better in many cases; it wasn't as subject to local biases, was generally more skeptical and more organised and consistent.

Part of the problem is that it is "4,000" on one side and "millions" on the other. Here are quotes I've found on some websites after a quick Google search (my bolding below)<snip>It's hard to keep emotion out of the argument I guess, but given the topic, that's not necessarily a bad thing. 4,000 burned at the stake is of course 4,000 too many.
It's hard to take you seriously if you quote a figure of "millions" killed by the Inquisition (or at their behest) as if it had any basis in reality. I'd suggest you consult some proper books, based on real research, by actual historians.
Madden has a new one out (God's Jury: The Inquisition and the Making of the Modern World) that's been recommended to me (by another actual historian).
 
... I'm aware of it's history. I've read it and have several copies. As I stated it enjoyed no official church recognition or status.

You misquote me; I stated that "Kramer was widely regarded within the church as a dangerous idiot".
But his book, which was gross incitement to commit murders on the basis of superstitious delusions, was not considered dangerous or idiotic? For what other reason, if not the book, was Kramer considered dangerous? Was any measure from the vast arsenal of punitive actions available to the Inquisition taken against him to mitigate this danger?
Probably because it didn't come within the scope of the Congregation, i.e. it wasn't overtly heretical. I would point out, and this is mentioned in the wiki page you quoted, that the RCC condemned the book not long after it was first published
It condemned this murderous handbook but did nothing? In what way was it not heretical? If Copernicus and Galileo, writing primarily about the physical structure of the solar system, and not about religion, could be banned and in the latter case punished, and their works suppressed for centuries, why could Kramer's work not be? For it did indeed deal with matters of religion, and presumed to inform its readers about the predispositions of the Devil in various fields.
and the Spanish Inquisition issued a cautionary note that the book wasn't to be believed.
But permitted it to continue to circulate. What remarkable and praiseworthy liberalism!

May I cite the wiki article again, because I have a question for you, which I would be grateful if you could answer.
The preface also includes an approbation from the University of Cologne's Faculty of Theology. The authenticity of the Cologne endorsement was first questioned by Joseph Hansen but has not been universally questioned ... Nevertheless, it is well established by sources outside the "Malleus" that the university's theology faculty as a whole condemned the book for unethical procedures and for contradicting Catholic theology on a number of important points.
This is in disagreement with your view that it was not banned
Probably because it didn't come within the scope of the Congregation, i.e. it wasn't overtly heretical.
To return to wiki:
Hence the Malleus' claims about an endorsement from the same faculty is at best a misleading approval granted by only a small percentage of the faculty, and at worst a complete forgery. Scholarly opinion is divided on the latter point, but there is general agreement that even if it were genuine it was misrepresented by Kramer, as was the copy of "Summis desiderantes" whose inclusion implies a Papal endorsement of the "Malleus" although "Summis desiderantes" had been issued before the "Malleus" was written
Now, if you know the publication history, and bearing in mind that the Inquisition could expurgate books, do you know if these probably spurious certificates of approval were required to be removed from later editions of the work? Or was it allowed to circulate uncorrected? As the article states.
Regardless of the authenticity of the endorsements appearing at the beginning of the book, their presence contributed to the popularity of the work.
This must have been known to the Inquisition and in these circumstances a mere
cautionary note that the book wasn't to be believed
seems rather a feeble sanction by the standards normally applied by that organisation.

In addition, there is a remarkable passage in the wiki article on Kramer.
Kramer failed in his attempt to obtain endorsement for this work from the top theologians of the Inquisition at the Faculty of Cologne, and they condemned the book as recommending unethical and illegal procedures, as well as being inconsistent with Catholic doctrines of demonology. In 1495 he was summoned to Venice to give public lectures, which were very popular. In 1500 he was empowered to proceed against the Waldensians and Picards.
This dangerous idiot was empowered to persecute even more people. That is very remarkable, is it not?
 
But his book, which was gross incitement to commit murders on the basis of superstitious delusions, was not considered dangerous or idiotic? For what other reason, if not the book, was Kramer considered dangerous? Was any measure from the vast arsenal of punitive actions available to the Inquisition taken against him to mitigate this danger? It condemned this murderous handbook but did nothing? In what way was it not heretical? If Copernicus and Galileo, writing primarily about the physical structure of the solar system, and not about religion, could be banned and in the latter case punished, and their works suppressed for centuries, why could Kramer's work not be? For it did indeed deal with matters of religion, and presumed to inform its readers about the predispositions of the Devil in various fields. But permitted it to continue to circulate. What remarkable and praiseworthy liberalism!

May I cite the wiki article again, because I have a question for you, which I would be grateful if you could answer. This is in disagreement with your view that it was not banned To return to wiki: Now, if you know the publication history, and bearing in mind that the Inquisition could expurgate books, do you know if these probably spurious certificates of approval were required to be removed from later editions of the work? Or was it allowed to circulate uncorrected? As the article states. This must have been known to the Inquisition and in these circumstances a mere seems rather a feeble sanction by the standards normally applied by that organisation.

In addition, there is a remarkable passage in the wiki article on Kramer. This dangerous idiot was empowered to persecute even more people. That is very remarkable, is it not?

Is it wrong of me to chuckle when I think of Kramer persecuting Picard?

I blame Television.

Sorry.
 
The Netherlands less wealthy than Spain? <snip>
Yes. The inflow of gold, silver and other materials from the Americas.

But his book, which was gross incitement to commit murders on the basis of superstitious delusions, was not considered dangerous or idiotic?
Yes it was, and it was treated as such. It was not, however, generally judged to be heretical, anti-clerical or lascivious. Hence it was not added to the Index Librorum Prohibitorum.
For what other reason, if not the book, was Kramer considered dangerous?
Because he was stirring up trouble. You'll notice where his career was limited.
Was any measure from the vast arsenal of punitive actions available to the Inquisition taken against him to mitigate this danger?
I suggest you look at the matters dealt with my the Inquisitions; Kramer's nonsense wasn't within their remit.
It condemned this murderous handbook but did nothing?
Yes. Does this surprise you? Many governments have done similar.
In what way was it not heretical?
It did not contain material explicitly contrary to the teachings of the church.
If you have read the book, as I have, and consider parts of it contrary to RCC teachings of the era please cite such parts.
If Copernicus and Galileo, writing primarily about the physical structure of the solar system, and not about religion, could be banned and in the latter case punished, and their works suppressed for centuries, why could Kramer's work not be?
Well in Galileo's case it was mainly irritating certain important people and publicly insulting his former patron Pope Urban VIII. Then there was his inability, when challenged, to support his stated beliefs with facts. Further the Copernican hypothesis did contradict the church's teachings and was therefore heretical. Given that Galileo was unable to show it was correct her was adjudged guilty, though not of heresy.

While the treatment of Galileo Galilei was reprehensible those who use it as a rod to beat the RCC would be wise to study the actual case, not merely the popular perception of it. There are three rather important thing to remember about the case:
Firstly, and possibly the most ironic part of the case, was that if Galileo hadn't alienated his peers, by his habits of insulting and belittling them, and plagarising their work, he'd have been able to show the Copernican hypothesis was correct and prompted a change in RCC doctrine.
Secondly Urban VIII stacked the panel very much in Galileo's favour (due partly to his past liking for him but mainly church politics) and the whole business, while considered a cause célèbre today, wasn't considered particularly important at the time.
And finally Galileo was lucky it was the Catholics who tried him; the protestants would certainly have burned him.

For it did indeed deal with matters of religion, and presumed to inform its readers about the predispositions of the Devil in various fields. But permitted it to continue to circulate. What remarkable and praiseworthy liberalism!
Sigh. The book was not heretical, hence no ban.

May I cite the wiki article again, because I have a question for you, which I would be grateful if you could answer. This is in disagreement with your view that it was not banned To return to wiki: Now, if you know the publication history, and bearing in mind that the Inquisition could expurgate books, do you know if these probably spurious certificates of approval were required to be removed from later editions of the work? Or was it allowed to circulate uncorrected?
They were generally required to be removed, as they were false. That was not a matter for the Inquisitions but local authorities. In several cases such counterfeit approvals were additions by the printers. The book never received a formal imprimatur.

And, yet again, might I remind you of the limited scope of the Index Librorum Prohibitorum? Works not subject to it were also not subject to publication donec corrigatur or donec expurgetur.

As the article states. This must have been known to the Inquisition and in these circumstances a mere seems rather a feeble sanction by the standards normally applied by that organisation.
Sigh. As I keep pointing out to you your point is rubbish; given the book wasn't heretical (or anti-clerical or lascivious) it wasn't subject to an Index ban. And of course such a ban would only apply within the Papal States unless ratified by local authorities.
In addition, there is a remarkable passage in the wiki article on Kramer. This dangerous idiot was empowered to persecute even more people. That is very remarkable, is it not?
No. But then I understand that the RCC was not, and is not, some monolithic entity.

If you actually want to understand the complexities of the era you need to do some serious reading, especially relevant would be the fraught relations between the four nominally Catholic powers, the Papal States, Austria and the HRE, France, and Spain. Then you might understand why, for example, France was allied with protestant Sweden or the balancing act between the factions within the church hierarchy and how it limited papal authority.
 
If you actually want to understand the complexities of the era you need to do some serious reading, especially relevant would be the fraught relations between the four nominally Catholic powers, the Papal States, Austria and the HRE, France, and Spain. Then you might understand why, for example, France was allied with protestant Sweden or the balancing act between the factions within the church hierarchy and how it limited papal authority.
I do not intend to be intimidated or redirected by such pompous stuff as this, but to continue, if I may, to consider the question of the Malleus. I am acquainted with the alliance of France and Sweden, which I learned about in school, and in fact mentioned French participation in the Thirty Years' War on the Protestant Swedish side in a thread in this forum a couple of years ago, on 10 Feb 2012. See http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8011750&postcount=52. I will leave ddt to deal with the point you raise with him, but I will respond to the statements you make on Galileo, pausing here only to question the relevance of your observation that
Galileo was lucky it was the Catholics who tried him; the protestants would certainly have burned him.
And for all I know the Shintoists would have burned him. So what? Am I a supporter of Protestant bigotry? On this, see http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8707200&postcount=2; and my even-handedness in condemnation of executions by both Catholics and Protestants is on display at http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9249181&postcount=30. 25 May 2013.
 
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It seems to me like the fact that the book was not considered heretical is kinda the issue here, not the explanation. And yes, I have read it.

The fact is that at one point it had been actually canon for the church (see for example the capitulum Episcopi) that magic doesn't really exist. Said capitulum for example, although it instructs bishops to eradicate practices of magic and divination, says they're only in the mind, and it's the belief that magical transformations and such are real that needs to be eradicated. Which would have included Kramer right there.

And even by the time of Kramer, there were enough professors of theology, e.g., at the university of Cologne, who thought the book contradicts the official church theology. So he COULD have been stopped quite easily, especially since the church had a long tradition of policing its own ranks against heresies.

But actually in its efforts to eradicate heresy, the church had increasingly gotten to recognize witchcraft as real. Performing satanic magic was increasingly a standard charge in heresy trials. (So much for the Inquisition not believing in witchcraft;)) With the accompanying changes in recognizing witchcraft as real, to allow those charges.

Culminating in the infamous Summis desiderantes affectibus papal bull which not only confirmed the existence of witchcraft, but also that a witchcraft outbreak was happening in Germany, and that specific magical acts were actually happening. E.g., straight from the bull, that magic was being used to "have slain infants yet in the mother's womb" or "hinder men from performing the sexual act and women from conceiving". (Now THAT is a recipe for finding witches everywhere.) Furthermore, it spells out the link to serving the devil.

The bull also not only doesn't try to stop witch-hunts, but actually instructs those local authorities to cooperate, on penalty of excommunication. At that point witch-hunts were virtually non-existent at this point because the local authorities and bishops weren't cooperating with that kinda crap. In fact, Germany had been generally resisting the Inquisition ever since it had already gotten a taste of its excesses.

Now we may accuse Kramer of using the papal bull as an endorsement of his book, which it wasn't supposed to be, but nevertheless it's a real bull ASKING to start a witch-hunt.

Far from being a case where the church tried to save the supposed witches, we have an actual official document, from a Pope no less, that actually asked the local authorities and bishops to START the witch-hunts.

Going "yeah, but it wasn't an endorsement for the book" is missing the point. The fact that the Summis desiderantes affectibus was issued at all is the bigger problem.
 
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GDon said:
Part of the problem is that it is "4,000" on one side and "millions" on the other. Here are quotes I've found on some websites after a quick Google search (my bolding below)<snip>It's hard to keep emotion out of the argument I guess, but given the topic, that's not necessarily a bad thing. 4,000 burned at the stake is of course 4,000 too many.
It's hard to take you seriously if you quote a figure of "millions" killed by the Inquisition (or at their behest) as if it had any basis in reality. I'd suggest you consult some proper books, based on real research, by actual historians.
Madden has a new one out (God's Jury: The Inquisition and the Making of the Modern World) that's been recommended to me (by another actual historian).
I'm not saying the Inquisition killed "millions", nor am I saying that "only" 4,000 killed is a good thing. Simply that the myth of the Inquisition is that they killed millions ("45 million to 100 million" can be found with a quick Google search). The reality seems to be that they killed thousands; which I hasten to add -- before ducking for cover -- is not a good thing! There is also the question of how they were an instrument for oppression, which would also not be a good thing! (GDon now retreats again into his bunker for safety :boxedin: )
 
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This is only a sideshow, but it goes to Madden's credibility. I quote the whole paragraph:

The Netherlands less wealthy than Spain? I very much doubt that, Flanders had always been an economic powerhouse, both in (wool) industry and in trade, and Holland was the upcoming kid on the block. The wealth of the Dutch Republic did not come out of the blue.

And those "defeats on the battlefield"? Does he mean the success Spain had in its war against England with the Spanish Armada? Or the success in the Eighty Years War, where part of its empire successfully seceded (the only success I can think of there is in keeping Flanders and most of Brabant). Or the success in the Thirty Years War against Gustavus Adolphus? :rolleyes: By the end of the Eighty and Thirty Years Wars at the peace of Westphalia, Spain had been reduced to a third-rate power, with England, France and the Dutch Republic vying for dominance in Western Europe.

ETA: and as to propaganda war, the main weapon - at least in the Netherlands - was simply the observable truth of how the Spanish operated over here. The ruthless inquisition against heretics, Duke Alba's "Blood Council", and the behaviour of the army (e.g., the Spanish Fury against Antwerp and the massacre of Naarden) legitimately gave rise to the image of the Spanish as cruel.

During the Reformatation era, no one walks away clean.
In England, Catholics were violently persecuted under Elizabeth. Everyone had blood on their hands.
The 30 Years War was a turning point;it started out as a attempt by the Hapsburgs to enforce Catholicism in Bohemia;and ended up in just another chapter in the long struggle between France and the HRE for power, with Catholic France allying it self with Protestant Sweedan against the HRE.
 
Donohue seems to be both ignorant and clueless. First Bruno was held for 8 years in a Dominican prison in Rome. further Rome in 1600 was the capital of the Papal States and thus controlled by the Pope, hence the Church. So in Rome the "secular" authority was in fact the Church. It was the Roman Inquisition run by Dominican Friars that imprisoned and burnt him. There is a statue in Rome today that marks the spot where Bruno was burned.

As for the crap about the Inquisition "saving" people. There is little evidence of much popular fury against "Heretics" in Europe before the establishment of the Inquisition. In fact "heresy" hunts by inquisitors did much to fuel antipathy against so called "Heretics", along with the practice of encouraging secret denunciations.
 
Well in Galileo's case it was mainly irritating certain important people and publicly insulting his former patron Pope Urban VIII. Then there was his inability, when challenged, to support his stated beliefs with facts. Further the Copernican hypothesis did contradict the church's teachings and was therefore heretical. Given that Galileo was unable to show it was correct her was adjudged guilty, though not of heresy.

Blaming the victim I see. Galileo did in fact support his position with evidence and valid argument. After all the book that got him into trouble did have evidence in it. It was just that the Judges were not convinced by it and were not likely to ever be convinced. The idea that the Judges were pro-Galileo and convicted because Galileo made a poor show of it; I.e., it was all Galileo's fault, is amusing.
 

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