How much time do we really have?

[Brainache]

Bloody hell. The Masons again.

Hey MikeB768, it looks like nobody is buying this "Haman" stuff, so I'd like to ask another question, if that's OK.

Can you tell me anything about "Hud", "the land of Ad" and Thamud?

I ask because I've recently read a book linking these people and places to the Elchasaites and Sabbateans, who might also be linked to the Ebionites and early Jewish Christians.

Given that the Quran preserves a tradition of Jesus as a human Prophet of God, not a Charlatan as the Jews say, nor a God as the Christians say, do you think it is likely that Muhammad's teachers were adherents of this Jewish/Christian/Baptist tradition?

What is the official line on this idea?

 

[mikeb768]

Bloody hell. The Masons again.

Hey MikeB768, it looks like nobody is buying this "Haman" stuff, so I'd like to ask another question, if that's OK.

Can you tell me anything about "Hud", "the land of Ad" and Thamud?

I ask because I've recently read a book linking these people and places to the Elchasaites and Sabbateans, who might also be linked to the Ebionites and early Jewish Christians.

Given that the Quran preserves a tradition of Jesus as a human Prophet of God, not a Charlatan as the Jews say, nor a God as the Christians say, do you think it is likely that Muhammad's teachers were adherents of this Jewish/Christian/Baptist tradition?

What is the official line on this idea?

Although we disagree people can decide for themselves on Haman. I completely understand the reasons for why people who choose to disbelieve in Moses, the Pharaoh during the time of Moses, the Jewish Exodus, Jewish Passover etc. would not want to accept such a finding.

The Quran talks about Hud as a prophet to the Ad people, as well as the Thamud people from my recollection. I would search around online or just read the Quran to find out more about this. SearchTruth is pretty good website which I sometimes use.

What do you mean by "Muhammad's teachers"? And I'm not sure if you realize this, but Jesus was not known to have referred to himself a Christian or a Jew.

 

[Craig B]

... What do you mean by "Muhammad's teachers"? And I'm not sure if you realize this, but Jesus was not known to have referred to himself a Christian or a Jew.

He was a Jew, if he was anyone at all. He is described as being of the House of David, and as being descended from Abraham. He worshipped in the Temple and preached in synagogues.

 

[Craig B]

He was a Jew, if he was anyone at all. He is described as being of the House of David, and as being descended from Abraham. He worshipped in the Temple and preached in synagogues. He was executed on a charge of being King of the Jews, according to the gospels.

 

[Craig B]

Dup

 

[Craig B]

Dup post.

 

[Brainache]

Although we disagree people can decide for themselves on Haman. I completely understand the reasons for why people who choose to disbelieve in Moses, the Pharaoh during the time of Moses, the Jewish Exodus, Jewish Passover etc. would not want to accept such a finding.

The Quran talks about Hud as a prophet to the Ad people, as well as the Thamud people from my recollection. I would search around online or just read the Quran to find out more about this. SearchTruth is pretty good website which I sometimes use.

What do you mean by "Muhammad's teachers"? And I'm not sure if you realize this, but Jesus was not known to have referred to himself a Christian or a Jew.

Thanks. Is "Hud" short for "Yehud", meaning "Jew"? Could "Ad" be Adiabene, where the Ebionites made Arab converts? Thamud might even be Thomas or Thaddeus...

By Muhammad's Teachers, I mean the people who taught him these traditions about Hud and Ad and Haman and Thamud. The ones who taught him that the Sabbateans were part of the same "People of the book" as Jews and Christians. Those guys.

I don't mean the Archangel Gabriel.

 

[mstricky]

In the version of the Qu'ran I read it says Jesus wasn't killed the Romans killed a man that looked like him.
It also says btw that God made all the sinners of the world to have black faces.

 

[mikeb768]

In the version of the Qu'ran I read it says Jesus wasn't killed the Romans killed a man that looked like him.
It also says btw that God made all the sinners of the world to have black faces.

Yes, Muslims do not believe that Jesus was killed, but was lifted up by God. [Quran 3:106-107] Talks about the brightness of believers faces on the Day of Judgement, and the darkness on the faces of disbelievers on this day. I'm not sure if this is meant literally, metaphorically, or both?

[Quran 80:38-39] “[Some] faces, that Day, will be bright – Laughing, rejoicing at good news.”

[Quran 10:27] "But they who have earned [blame for] evil doings - the recompense of an evil deed is its equivalent, and humiliation will cover them. They will have from God no protector. It will be as if their faces are covered with pieces of the night - so dark [are they]."

Many other examples which depict this sharp contrast between people (or the faces of people) on the the Day of Judgement can be found throughout the Quran.

 

[TimCallahan]

Bloody hell. The Masons again.

Hey MikeB768, it looks like nobody is buying this "Haman" stuff, so I'd like to ask another question, if that's OK.

Can you tell me anything about "Hud", "the land of Ad" and Thamud?

I ask because I've recently read a book linking these people and places to the Elchasaites and Sabbateans, who might also be linked to the Ebionites and early Jewish Christians.

Given that the Quran preserves a tradition of Jesus as a human Prophet of God, not a Charlatan as the Jews say, nor a God as the Christians say, do you think it is likely that Muhammad's teachers were adherents of this Jewish/Christian/Baptist tradition?

What is the official line on this idea?

Ad may be a drastically shortened variant on Hadramaut, a region on the southern coast of Arabia, on the Indian Ocean. Thamud is mentioned in the chronicles of the Assyrian king Sargon II ca. 715 BCE. These are preserved documents, cuneiform inscriptions on baked clay tablets. Thamud was a kingdom in northeastern Arabia paying tribute to the Assyrians.

 

[TimCallahan]

Yes, Muslims do not believe that Jesus was killed, but was lifted up by God. . . . (major snip) . . .

True. Q 4:157, 158 say:

. . . and said, "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God," (They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them; those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition; they certainly did not kill him - God raised him up to Himself. God is almighty and wise.

The idea that Jesus really wasn't crucified is a Gnostic teaching by Basilides (from the site):

And to men Christ seemed to be a man and to have performed miracles. It was not, however, Christ who suffered, but rather Simon of Cyrene, who was constrained to carry the cross for him, and mistakenly crucified in Christ's stead. Simon having received Jesus' form, Jesus assumed Simon's and thus stood by and laughed at them. Simon was crucified and Jesus returned to His Father. Through the Gnosis (Knowledge) of Christ the souls of men are saved, but their bodies perish.

 

[TimCallahan]

Although we disagree people can decide for themselves on Haman. I completely understand the reasons for why people who choose to disbelieve in Moses, the Pharaoh during the time of Moses, the Jewish Exodus, Jewish Passover etc. would not want to accept such a finding.
. . . (major snip) . . .

The issue of Haman v. Hemen-hotep actually has little or nothing to do with the historicity of the Exodus. What has more bearing on it is the fact that there is absolutely no historical or archaeological support for it taking place. Those arguing for the Exodus and conquest of Canaan, as presented in the Books of Exodus and Joshua, as historical events can't even decide on whether all this occurred in the 1200s or 1400s BCE.

According to the Global Egyptian Museum site, the door stop belonging to Hemen-hetep dates from not earlier that the 19th. dynasty to not later than the 20th. Thus, if you insist this door stop belonged to the Haman you assert to be serving the pharaoh of the Exodus, That pharaoh would have to be one of those of either the 19th. or 20th. dynasty.

The 19th. dynasty was 1293 - 1185 BCE. Its pharaohs were (in order of succession): Ramesses I, Seti I, Ramesses II (the Great), Merneptah, Amenmesses, Seti II, Siptah, Oueen Twosret. The paharaohs of the 20th dynasty (1185 - 1070), again in order of succession, were Setnakhte, Ramesses III, Ramesses IV, Ramesses V, Ramesses VI, Ramesses VII, Ramesses VIII, Ramesses IX, Ramesses X, Ramesses XI (source: Chronicle of the Pharaohs by Peter A. Clayton, 1994 Thames and Hudson).

We know, from the victory stele set up by Nerneptah (reigned 1212 - 1202), that Israel was one of the peoples already living in Canaan at the time of his reign. So, any historical Exodus would have to have occurred before this time. Yet, Israel is only one of many peoples living in the land at that time, which effectively falsifies the Book of Joshua. We also know that Egyptian power was declining during the 20th. dynasty, at the end of the Late Bronze Age. However, though the Bible doesn't mention it, Ramesses III of the 20th. dynasty (reigned 1182 - 1151) did give the old empire one last hurrah. After defeating an attack on Egypt by the so-called Sea Peoples, he set up Egyptian garrisons in Canaan. We have archaeological evidence of this.

So, mikeb 768, given all this information, when do you assert that the Exodus happened and who was the pharaoh of the Exodus?

 

[Hercules56]

Worse case scenario: we have only a few billion years left.

 

[mstricky]

Bloody hell. The Masons again.

Hey MikeB768, it looks like nobody is buying this "Haman" stuff, so I'd like to ask another question, if that's OK.

Can you tell me anything about "Hud", "the land of Ad" and Thamud?

I ask because I've recently read a book linking these people and places to the Elchasaites and Sabbateans, who might also be linked to the Ebionites and early Jewish Christians.

Given that the Quran preserves a tradition of Jesus as a human Prophet of God, not a Charlatan as the Jews say, nor a God as the Christians say, do you think it is likely that Muhammad's teachers were adherents of this Jewish/Christian/Baptist tradition?

What is the official line on this idea?

As Islam only came into being 600 years after Christ, I don't see how muslims can ever be accurate about anything that occured in Christ's life

 

[Brainache]

As Islam only came into being 600 years after Christ, I don't see how muslims can ever be accurate about anything that occured in Christ's life

I don't either, but I think they may preserve traditions about the spread of the early Jewish/Christian/Baptist beliefs eastward through Iraq and Iran and southward into Arabia in the centuries between Jesus and Muhammad.

 

[Craig B]

Although we disagree people can decide for themselves on Haman. I completely understand the reasons for why people who choose to disbelieve in Moses, the Pharaoh during the time of Moses, the Jewish Exodus, Jewish Passover etc. would not want to accept such a finding.

I say again: the hmn-h = Quranic Haman thing is very recent, and we have shown that it is based on no reasonable evidence at all, whether Moses existed or not, or the Exodus took place or not. I do not "chose to disbelieve" in these things anyway. What has happened is that modern archaeologists are finding no good evidence for them, and it is increasingly suspected in the scholarly world that the Exodus is a myth, and that Moses did not exist, or at least that the biblical account of him is hopelessly inaccurate.

We do not "choose to believe" or not. We consider the evidence made available to us.

On the other hand, you "choose to believe". Your only reason for belief is that these things are in the Quran. But in the opinion of many people, the Quran is not always accurate. Muhammad had no more knowledge of the remote past than any other person of his time and place, and like all human beings he was fallible, and sometimes made mistakes (about Haman, or Abraham's intended sacrifice, or Jesus' mother and Moses' sister) when he retold stories he had heard from people familiar with the Jewish scriptures--Muhammad's only source of information about such things.

 

[mikeb768]

The issue of Haman v. Hemen-hotep actually has little or nothing to do with the historicity of the Exodus. What has more bearing on it is the fact that there is absolutely no historical or archaeological support for it taking place. Those arguing for the Exodus and conquest of Canaan, as presented in the Books of Exodus and Joshua, as historical events can't even decide on whether all this occurred in the 1200s or 1400s BCE.

According to the Global Egyptian Museum site, the door stop belonging to Hemen-hetep dates from not earlier that the 19th. dynasty to not later than the 20th. Thus, if you insist this door stop belonged to the Haman you assert to be serving the pharaoh of the Exodus, That pharaoh would have to be one of those of either the 19th. or 20th. dynasty.

The 19th. dynasty was 1293 - 1185 BCE. Its pharaohs were (in order of succession): Ramesses I, Seti I, Ramesses II (the Great), Merneptah, Amenmesses, Seti II, Siptah, Oueen Twosret. The paharaohs of the 20th dynasty (1185 - 1070), again in order of succession, were Setnakhte, Ramesses III, Ramesses IV, Ramesses V, Ramesses VI, Ramesses VII, Ramesses VIII, Ramesses IX, Ramesses X, Ramesses XI (source: Chronicle of the Pharaohs by Peter A. Clayton, 1994 Thames and Hudson).

We know, from the victory stele set up by Nerneptah (reigned 1212 - 1202), that Israel was one of the peoples already living in Canaan at the time of his reign. So, any historical Exodus would have to have occurred before this time. Yet, Israel is only one of many peoples living in the land at that time, which effectively falsifies the Book of Joshua. We also know that Egyptian power was declining during the 20th. dynasty, at the end of the Late Bronze Age. However, though the Bible doesn't mention it, Ramesses III of the 20th. dynasty (reigned 1182 - 1151) did give the old empire one last hurrah. After defeating an attack on Egypt by the so-called Sea Peoples, he set up Egyptian garrisons in Canaan. We have archaeological evidence of this.

So, mikeb 768, given all this information, when do you assert that the Exodus happened and who was the pharaoh of the Exodus?

Yeah, I don't have any exact date for when the Exodus took place (I'm pretty sure that we are not the only who are eager to discover such information). I remember reading that most that the two most likely candidates for pharaoh during the time were either Ramesses II or Merneptah, but don't quote me on this.

Moses in Islam
Exodus

 

[mstricky]

Yes, Muslims do not believe that Jesus was killed, but was lifted up by God. [Quran 3:106-107] Talks about the brightness of believers faces on the Day of Judgement, and the darkness on the faces of disbelievers on this day. I'm not sure if this is meant literally, metaphorically, or both?

[Quran 80:38-39] “[Some] faces, that Day, will be bright – Laughing, rejoicing at good news.”

[Quran 10:27] "But they who have earned [blame for] evil doings - the recompense of an evil deed is its equivalent, and humiliation will cover them. They will have from God no protector. It will be as if their faces are covered with pieces of the night - so dark [are they]."

Many other examples which depict this sharp contrast between people (or the faces of people) on the the Day of Judgement can be found throughout the Quran.

It definitely says Jesus wasn't killed, a man who looked like him was .... I. E... A lookalike, it says nothing about him being lifted by Allah. It says Allah caused all sinners to have black faces not that they are dark or bright, just black. Stop making excuses. It also says that Allah made all Jews into monkeys

 

[Craig B]

It definitely says Jesus wasn't killed, a man who looked like him was .... I. E... A lookalike, it says nothing about him being lifted by Allah. It says Allah caused all sinners to have black faces not that they are dark or bright, just black. Stop making excuses. It also says that Allah made all Jews into monkeys

However that may be, the Jews must have taken it in good part because they got on better with the Muslims than with the Christians throughout most of the history of the coexistence of the three religions.

 

[mstricky]

However that may be, the Jews must have taken it in good part because they got on better with the Muslims than with the Christians throughout most of the history of the coexistence of the three religions.

No they didn't. Muslims in Palestine and world wide still want to drive all Jews in Israel into the sea. Even though muslims were only established in year 600, Jews had lived in Israel for centuries before that and are entitled to the land. Islam from a few followers of Mohammed in Mecca have now control of a third of the planet