Wherein Bill Donohue defends the Inquisition

[fuelair]

The new Cosmos that premired on Sunday has Bill Donohue upset. He claims the section on Giordano Bruno stating that the church used to Inquisition to try and punish him is anti-catholic propaganda.

http://www.catholicleague.org/cosmos-smears-catholicism/



The Inquisition was all friendly eh?

If I remember correctly the Inquisition directly caused his death (they may have turned him over to civil authorities to do the actual killing but Hitler is still the cause and the bad guy in what happened to oh so many civilians in Germany (etc.) through his "cleansing programs". You do not get a pass because someone else carried out your instructions..........

 

[Craig B]

If I remember correctly the Inquisition directly caused his death (they may have turned him over to civil authorities to do the actual killing but Hitler is still the cause and the bad guy in what happened to oh so many civilians in Germany (etc.) through his "cleansing programs". You do not get a pass because someone else carried out your instructions..........

Bruno was executed in Rome in 1600. At that time, and indeed until 1870, the "civil authorities" were the Church. The Pope was secular monarch as well as spiritual ruler. See wiki on the "Papal States".

The Papal States were territories in the Italian peninsula under the sovereign direct rule of the pope, from the 500s until 1870. They were among the major states of Italy from roughly the sixth century until the Italian Peninsula was unified in 1861 by the Kingdom of Piedmont-Sardinia. After 1861 the Papal States, reduced to Lazio, continued to exist until 1870. At their zenith, they covered most of the modern Italian regions of Lazio (that includes most of Rome), Marche, Umbria and Romagna, as well as portions of Emilia.

By the way, contrary to Donohue as quoted in #11 above, the Catholic Encyclopaedia has stated that

Bruno was not condemned for his defence of the Copernican system of astronomy, nor for his doctrine of the plurality of inhabited worlds, but for his theological errors, among which were the following: that Christ was not God but merely an unusually skillful magician, that the Holy Ghost is the soul of the world, that the Devil will be saved, etc.

So he was condemned for heretical theological opinions. But even if the doctrine of a plurality of worlds is false, how is that belief a crime? And even if it's a crime, what does that have to do with the Church?

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Although we can speculate that heliocentrism or multiple worlds wasn't what ticked off the inquisitors the worst, it should still be said that in the end he was asked to recant ALL of the points on that accusation list. Which did include the multiple worlds, for example. So them now saying "yeah, but it wasn't for that" is kinda unsupportable, when it was on the list of charges, and he was told to recant ALL of them.

 

[Chaos]

I never would have suspected that.

Nobody suspects the Holy Inquisition.

 

[Craig B]

Although we can speculate that heliocentrism or multiple worlds wasn't what ticked off the inquisitors the worst, it should still be said that in the end he was asked to recant ALL of the points on that accusation list. Which did include the multiple worlds, for example. So them now saying "yeah, but it wasn't for that" is kinda unsupportable, when it was on the list of charges, and he was told to recant ALL of them.

Agreed. But some apologists--we've seen them in this forum--argue that the attack on Bruno was not a Church attack on science, and that the doctrine of plurality of worlds was not punishable as heresy. I disagree. But I am amused to see Donohue stating one thing and the old Catholic Encyclopaedia stating the opposite. They simply say the first thing that comes into their heads, depending who they're arguing with at any particular moment.

 

[GDon]

The new Cosmos that premired on Sunday has Bill Donohue upset. He claims the section on Giordano Bruno stating that the church used to Inquisition to try and punish him is anti-catholic propaganda.

http://www.catholicleague.org/cosmos-smears-catholicism/

The Inquisition was all friendly eh?

Donohue quotes from an article by Dr Thomas F. Madden, associate professor and chair of the Department of History at Saint Louis University. The article is fairly long, so I've only given short extracts from it, but Maddern discusses how the Inquisition, especially the Spanish Inquisition, was not nearly as bad as purported in more modern times, attributing the latter's bad reputation to Protestant propaganda from several hundred years ago:

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0075.html

One of the most enduring myths of the Inquisition is that it was a tool of oppression imposed on unwilling Europeans by a power-hungry Church. Nothing could be more wrong. In truth, the Inquisition brought order, justice, and compassion to combat rampant secular and popular persecutions of heretics...

Most people accused of heresy by the medieval Inquisition were either acquitted or their sentence suspended. Those found guilty of grave error were allowed to confess their sin, do penance, and be restored to the Body of Christ... Unrepentant or obstinate heretics were excommunicated and given over to the secular authorities. Despite popular myth, the Church did not burn heretics. It was the secular authorities that held heresy to be a capital offense. The simple fact is that the medieval Inquisition saved uncounted thousands of innocent (and even not-so-innocent) people who would otherwise have been roasted by secular lords or mob rule...

By the 14th century, the Inquisition represented the best legal practices available. Inquisition officials were university-trained specialists in law and theology. The procedures were similar to those used in secular inquisitions (we call them "inquests" today, but it's the same word)...

No major court in Europe executed fewer people than the Spanish Inquisition. This was a time, after all, when damaging shrubs in a public garden in London carried the death penalty. Across Europe, executions were everyday events. But not so with the Spanish Inquisition. In its 350-year lifespan only about 4,000 people were put to the stake. Compare that with the witch-hunts that raged across the rest of Catholic and Protestant Europe, in which 60,000 people, mostly women, were roasted. Spain was spared this hysteria precisely because the Spanish Inquisition stopped it at the border. When the first accusations of witchcraft surfaced in northern Spain, the Inquisition sent its people to investigate. These trained legal scholars found no believable evidence for witches' Sabbaths, black magic, or baby roasting. It was also noted that those confessing to witchcraft had a curious inability to fly through keyholes. While Europeans were throwing women onto bonfires with abandon, the Spanish Inquisition slammed the door shut on this insanity...​

Madden goes on to write that the "Black Legend" of the horrific Spanish Inquisition developed as part of a "propaganda war" by the Protestants after the 16th Century CE:

Although the Spanish defeated Protestants on the battlefield, they would lose the propaganda war. These were the years when the famous "Black Legend" of Spain was forged. Innumerable books and pamphlets poured from northern presses accusing the Spanish Empire of inhuman depravity and horrible atrocities in the New World. Opulent Spain was cast as a place of darkness, ignorance, and evil. Although modern scholars have long ago discarded the Black Legend, it still remains very much alive today.​

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Agreed. But some apologists--we've seen them in this forum--argue that the attack on Bruno was not a Church attack on science, and that the doctrine of plurality of worlds was not punishable as heresy. I disagree. But I am amused to see Donohue stating one thing and the old Catholic Encyclopaedia stating the opposite. They simply say the first thing that comes into their heads, depending who they're arguing with at any particular moment.

Mind you, I AM one of those who think it wasn't about attacking science per se. Compared to doubting the divinity of Jesus, the virginity of Mary, proposing reincarnation instead of heaven and hell, etc, yeah, I think science was probably a lesser issue.

Not that I find the Inquisition defensible, mind you.

But yeah, Donohue is... not very good at it.

 

[Craig B]

I have to say I'd like more evidence for this.

Most people accused of heresy by the medieval Inquisition were either acquitted or their sentence suspended. Those found guilty of grave error were allowed to confess their sin, do penance, and be restored to the Body of Christ... Unrepentant or obstinate heretics were excommunicated and given over to the secular authorities. Despite popular myth, the Church did not burn heretics. It was the secular authorities that held heresy to be a capital offense. The simple fact is that the medieval Inquisition saved uncounted thousands of innocent (and even not-so-innocent) people who would otherwise have been roasted by secular lords or mob rule...

In fact the inquisition went out of its way to find evidence against people whom it could then persecute. And it was funded through sequestration of the property of accused persons, even if they had not been found guilty of anything. And it encouraged denunciation of "accomplices" and so on, which spread its net even wider. And when it confiscated property it shared the loot with the King and the Vatican, which encouraged yet more investigations.

 

[GDon]

The new Cosmos that premired on Sunday has Bill Donohue upset. He claims the section on Giordano Bruno stating that the church used to Inquisition to try and punish him is anti-catholic propaganda.

Actually, Donohue's point on Bruno was that he was not a scientist, since IIUC Tyson's point was that Bruno was persecuted for his scientific ideas, like the "infinite universe and multiplicity of worlds". But, according to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/copernicus/

When Giordano Bruno (1548–1600) was burned at the stake as a heretic, it had nothing to do with his writings in support of Copernican cosmology, and this is clearly shown in Finocchiaro's reconstruction of the accusations against Bruno (see also Blumenberg's part 3, chapter 5, titled “Not a Martyr for Copernicanism: Giordano Bruno”).​

The article also states:

Thus, in 1600 there was no official Catholic position on the Copernican system, and it was certainly not a heresy.​

Anyway, Bruno looks suspiciously like Seth Lord Emperor Palpatine! So the Inquisition did good:

 

[Resume]

Actually, Donohue's point on Bruno was that he was not a scientist, since IIUC Tyson's point was that Bruno was persecuted for his scientific ideas, like the "infinite universe and multiplicity of worlds". But, according to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/copernicus/

When Giordano Bruno (1548–1600) was burned at the stake as a heretic, it had nothing to do with his writings in support of Copernican cosmology, and this is clearly shown in Finocchiaro's reconstruction of the accusations against Bruno (see also Blumenberg's part 3, chapter 5, titled “Not a Martyr for Copernicanism: Giordano Bruno”).​

The article also states:

Thus, in 1600 there was no official Catholic position on the Copernican system, and it was certainly not a heresy.​

Yes, Bruno was executed for his other heresies. So Donohue has a point. It's atop his head. He is a penis.

 

[Damien Evans]

Donohue quotes from an article by Dr Thomas F. Madden, associate professor and chair of the Department of History at Saint Louis University. The article is fairly long, so I've only given short extracts from it, but Maddern discusses how the Inquisition, especially the Spanish Inquisition, was not nearly as bad as purported in more modern times, attributing the latter's bad reputation to Protestant propaganda from several hundred years ago:

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0075.html

One of the most enduring myths of the Inquisition is that it was a tool of oppression imposed on unwilling Europeans by a power-hungry Church. Nothing could be more wrong. In truth, the Inquisition brought order, justice, and compassion to combat rampant secular and popular persecutions of heretics...

Most people accused of heresy by the medieval Inquisition were either acquitted or their sentence suspended. Those found guilty of grave error were allowed to confess their sin, do penance, and be restored to the Body of Christ... Unrepentant or obstinate heretics were excommunicated and given over to the secular authorities. Despite popular myth, the Church did not burn heretics. It was the secular authorities that held heresy to be a capital offense. The simple fact is that the medieval Inquisition saved uncounted thousands of innocent (and even not-so-innocent) people who would otherwise have been roasted by secular lords or mob rule...

By the 14th century, the Inquisition represented the best legal practices available. Inquisition officials were university-trained specialists in law and theology. The procedures were similar to those used in secular inquisitions (we call them "inquests" today, but it's the same word)...

No major court in Europe executed fewer people than the Spanish Inquisition. This was a time, after all, when damaging shrubs in a public garden in London carried the death penalty. Across Europe, executions were everyday events. But not so with the Spanish Inquisition. In its 350-year lifespan only about 4,000 people were put to the stake. Compare that with the witch-hunts that raged across the rest of Catholic and Protestant Europe, in which 60,000 people, mostly women, were roasted. Spain was spared this hysteria precisely because the Spanish Inquisition stopped it at the border. When the first accusations of witchcraft surfaced in northern Spain, the Inquisition sent its people to investigate. These trained legal scholars found no believable evidence for witches' Sabbaths, black magic, or baby roasting. It was also noted that those confessing to witchcraft had a curious inability to fly through keyholes. While Europeans were throwing women onto bonfires with abandon, the Spanish Inquisition slammed the door shut on this insanity...​

Madden goes on to write that the "Black Legend" of the horrific Spanish Inquisition developed as part of a "propaganda war" by the Protestants after the 16th Century CE:

Although the Spanish defeated Protestants on the battlefield, they would lose the propaganda war. These were the years when the famous "Black Legend" of Spain was forged. Innumerable books and pamphlets poured from northern presses accusing the Spanish Empire of inhuman depravity and horrible atrocities in the New World. Opulent Spain was cast as a place of darkness, ignorance, and evil. Although modern scholars have long ago discarded the Black Legend, it still remains very much alive today.​

Since Bruno was convicted by the Roman Inquisition I fail to see how the record of the Spanish Inquisition is relevant.

 

[Craig B]

Since Bruno was convicted by the Roman Inquisition I fail to see how the record of the Spanish Inquisition is relevant.

Yes and we can hardly say that

The ignorance is appalling. “The Catholic Church as an institution had almost nothing to do with [the Inquisition],” writes Dayton historian Thomas Madden.

because

The Roman Inquisition, formally the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition was a system of tribunals developed by the Holy See of the Roman Catholic Church during the second half of the 16th century, responsible for prosecuting individuals accused of a wide array of crimes relating to religious doctrine or alternate religious doctrine or alternate religious beliefs.

And the Pope was secular ruler of Rome as well as its spiritual leader.

 

[Cleon]

Nothing new. Donohue's been defending the Inquisition for years. Of course, he defends ANYTHING related to Catholicism, even if the Church stopped defending it decades ago (like, say, the Inquisition).

 

[ravdin]

Does Bill Donohoe really want to live in a world that is free from any whiff of criticism of the Catholic church? How could he continue to make a living?

 

[Zelenius]

This isn't surprising coming from Bill Donohue. He might as well become a Holocaust denier if he keeps pushing this nonsense. After all, Hitler was a Catholic and so were millions of Germans in the 3rd Reich, along with collaborators in occupied countries. Indeed, this fact is far more of an inconvenience for Catholics who claim their Church has an unblemished reputation than the Inquisition which committed its horrific crimes many centuries ago and had far fewer victims.

Yes, I am fully aware of the many heroic Catholics(and protestants) who did all they could to help save Jews from the Nazis. Many more, unfortunately, were Hitler's willing executioners or simply did nothing to oppose Nazism. There's no escaping the fact that Roman Catholicism was hardly a united front in opposing Nazism or fascism in general. In fact, it often supported fascism.

 

[Elizabeth I]

I love the "it didn't happen and if it did they deserved it and it wasn't all that bad anyway" defense.

 

[LaurelHS]

"Your Honor, I didn't do it, and I swear I'll never do it again!"

 

[Craig B]

This isn't surprising coming from Bill Donohue. He might as well become a Holocaust denier if he keeps pushing this nonsense.

He might indeed. One of the early tasks of the Inquisition was to ferret out secret Jews. Open Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492, but many stayed on as phony Christians. There was a racist element to this too, as people with Jewish ancestors were barred from certain public offices, regardless of their religious affiliation.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

I love the "it didn't happen and if it did they deserved it and it wasn't all that bad anyway" defense.

It's called kettle logic, and the name comes from one of Freud's story about a guy who borrowed a kettle, and was accused of returning it damaged. So he essentially claims:


* That he had returned the kettle undamaged;
* That it was already damaged when he borrowed it;
* That he had never borrowed it in the first place.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

And here's me, thinking the Malleus Maleficarum was a tool of the Inquisition.