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How much time do we really have?

mikeb768 said:
Why does God desire worship? Maybe it is because God created each of us, and everything in the known universe, and therefore is worthy of praise? Maybe you will get the chance to ask him in the case you ever meet God?
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In other words, you don't know.

mikeb768 said:
Regarding your other question, "I'm asking why, if he has perfect foreknowledge, would he bother to create those who, of their own free will, would reject him." God states the following: [Quran 16:93] "If God so willed, He could make you all one religion: But He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your actions." Maybe there is some wisdom behind God's seeming decision to allow diversity? God knows best.
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Again, in other words, you don't know.

mikeb768 said:
Also people who choose to reject God does not harm him in the least. It is a big myth that God needs us or that God needs our worship. God reminds us that it is we who need God. So people can reject all they want it makes no difference, in the end people will have only harmed themselves/diminished their own reward.
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Nor was I contending that they harm any God who might exist. My point is this: Why bother creating that which you intend to either destroy or damn to eternal suffering (assuming that you are wrong and not everyone is eventually reunited with God)?

mikeb768 said:
Imo it is a difficult position to defend, actively using your free will to argue against the existence of God, and at the same time arguing you have no free will. It seems a nonsensical argument. The only way the concept of free will is an "illusion" has any meaning, is if we are able to determine that life is only an illusion. Although there seem to be quite a number Quantum Physicists as of recently who are claiming just that. Maybe there is some truth to the idea? I don't know. Are things such as free will and even time only an illusion? I believe that I'm acting of my own free will, but can this be proven? Quantum Mechanics Documentary on Determinism vs Free Will
The Illusion of Time, The Illusion of Time 2
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Where did you get the bizarre idea I was arguing I have no free will? My argument is that, if it is foreordained by who I am that I will make a certain choice, then, with regard to that particular choice, I would only have the illusion of free will. I believe, at least in some things, I do have free will and that whatever choice I make is not foreknown by any God who might exist.

mikeb768 said:
God was not "angry" from my recollection, when Satan refused to bow down. In fact he approved Satan's request immediately after Satan's disobedience.
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Really? According to Q 7:11 -13 God sounds quite angry when Iblis fails to bow down to Adam:

We created you, We gave you shape, and then We said to the angels, "Bow down before Adam," sand they did But not Iblis; he was not one of those who bowed down. God said, "What prevented you from bowing down as I commanded you?" and he said, "I am better than him: You created me from fire and him from clay." God said, "Get down from here! This is o place for your arrogance. Get out! You are contemptible!"

mikeb768 said:
And I still disagree with the usage of the term "your God". There can only be one.
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We'll have to agree to disagree on that.
 
Free will or fate? Which is it? Or a combination of the two? Can the two be reconciled?

Is what seems to be free will only an illusion? Kind of a scary thought if you ask me.

Is it comparable to someone being told to get inside a car and drive from Boston Massachusetts to Houston Texas, no GPS just get in and drive. The person gets in drives, stops for meals, gas, slows down for traffic, slams on the breaks for the kid who runs out into traffic about half way through the trip, gets lost a few times along the way, etc. Then when they arrive in Houston and step out of the car, a guy in a white coat walks up to them and explains the following: "You weren't actually driving, the car had already been programed to take into account every single factor of your trip, your personality, weather, other seemingly random events, etc. It was all taken into account before you ever set foot into the vehicle. Every time you made a turn or even hit the brakes, the car actually implemented the exact same action, but a fraction of a second before you did."

Imagine the look on the persons face afterwards, "But I thought that I was in control?, It even felt like I was in control". Well you were, but you weren't. It's complicated.
 
TimCallahan said:
Nor was I contending that they harm any God who might exist. My point is this: Why bother creating that which you intend to either destroy or damn to eternal suffering (assuming that you are wrong and not everyone is eventually reunited with God)?
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If you believe in God and worry that you may have been created only for the purpose of eternal suffering, then I would pray about it/seek God, if I were you.

If you don't believe in God, then I wouldn't worry about it. If God, Heaven, and Hell are man made or only figments of our imaginations then you have nothing to worry about, why sweat it?

Our places have already been determined either way. We both seem to agree on this.
 
mikeb768 said:
OK, and... I have no obligation to respond to any of your posts. Not sure what would have given you any idea to the contrary?
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What makes you think that I was suggesting you were obliged to respond?

However, your lack of response has inferences, which, in the absence of anything to the contrary, I'll take as you conceding the points I raised. In other words, unless you tell me otherwise, I'll assume that you now understand that the onus is on you to prove the existence of god, rather than on me (or other atheists) to disprove. Of course, you also concede that your god is your god, and not our god, or my god.

So, what have you got in the way of evidence for your god's existence?
 
mikeb768 said:
Free will or fate? Which is it? Or a combination of the two? Can the two be reconciled?

Is what seems to be free will only an illusion? Kind of a scary thought if you ask me.

Is it comparable to someone being told to get inside a car and drive from Boston Massachusetts to Houston Texas, no GPS just get in and drive. The person gets in drives, stops for meals, gas, slows down for traffic, slams on the breaks for the kid who runs out into traffic about half way through the trip, gets lost a few times along the way, etc. Then when they arrive in Houston and step out of the car, a guy in a white coat walks up to them and explains the following: "You weren't actually driving, the car had already been programed to take into account every single factor of your trip, your personality, weather, other seemingly random events, etc. It was all taken into account before you ever set foot into the vehicle. Every time you made a turn or even hit the brakes, the car actually implemented the exact same action, but a fraction of a second before you did."

Imagine the look on the persons face afterwards, "But I thought that I was in control?, It even felt like I was in control". Well you were, but you weren't. It's complicated.
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The unlikelihood of the scenario you describe should lead any sane person to the understanding that humans aren't pre-programmed, or in any way controlled. We are 100% free to chose between the various options that chance throws our way, unconstrained by any ridiculous supernatural creatures, or any superstitions.
 
mikeb768 said:
If you believe in God and worry that you may have been created only for the purpose of eternal suffering, then I would pray about it/seek God, if I were you.

If you don't believe in God, then I wouldn't worry about it. If God, Heaven, and Hell are man made or only figments of our imaginations then you have nothing to worry about, why sweat it?

Our places have already been determined either way. We both seem to agree on this.
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Determined by what?
 
mikeb768 said:
Free will or fate? Which is it? Or a combination of the two? Can the two be reconciled?
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False dichotomy. Fatalism isn't determinism. Fatalism is the view that you are powerless to affect future events, determinism is the view that your actions are causally determined by prior events, but do change the future. A fatalist would eschew a helmet because, 'if a bullet has my name on it...', or would smoke because, 'if I'm going to get lung cancer, I might as well...'.

Is what seems to be free will only an illusion? Kind of a scary thought if you ask me.
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Not scary because you still make the choices from the options available, but those choices are determined, in a complex way, by your previous experiences, etc.

Is it comparable to someone being told to get inside a car and drive from Boston Massachusetts to Houston Texas... Then when they arrive in Houston and step out of the car, a guy in a white coat walks up to them and explains the following: "You weren't actually driving..."
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Not really. Quantum mechanics means the world is stochastic rather than strictly deterministic, and even if that were not the case, chaos theory (sensitive dependence on initial conditions) means it would be impossible to know the initial state of the driver and his environment in sufficient detail and precision to predict events a significant time in the future. From our point of view, we assess the options and make our choices based on the sort of person we are and how we feel at the time - that's free enough for me.

Having said all that, people can be surprisingly predictable...
 
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MikeG said:
What makes you think that I was suggesting you were obliged to respond?

However, your lack of response has inferences, which, in the absence of anything to the contrary, I'll take as you conceding the points I raised. In other words, unless you tell me otherwise, I'll assume that you now understand that the onus is on you to prove the existence of god, rather than on me (or other atheists) to disprove. Of course, you also concede that your god is your god, and not our god, or my god.

So, what have you got in the way of evidence for your god's existence?
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We can find evidence for God pretty much everywhere we look, just start with the OP for example.
 
MikeG said:
What makes you think that I was suggesting you were obliged to respond?

However, your lack of response has inferences, which, in the absence of anything to the contrary, I'll take as you conceding the points I raised. In other words, unless you tell me otherwise, I'll assume that you now understand that the onus is on you to prove the existence of god, rather than on me (or other atheists) to disprove. Of course, you also concede that your god is your god, and not our god, or my god.

So, what have you got in the way of evidence for your god's existence?
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...Just start with the things which have been mentioned in the OP for example.

So far the only recourse to the Quran's historically accurate reference to Haman, has been to spin a number of lies in order to try and confuse people and steer them away from the truth. Post#364

But this is just one example.
 
mikeb768 said:
...Just start with the things which have been mentioned in the OP for example.

So far the only recourse to the Quran's historically accurate reference to Haman, has been to spin a number of lies in order to try and confuse people and steer them away from the truth. Post#364

But this is just one example.
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What lies? I have gone through the evidence about Haman in great detail, providing sources where appropriate. Now tell me what lies I have told. Exactly what lies, please? I require an answer to this, by the way.
 
mikeb768 said:
We can find evidence for God pretty much everywhere we look
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Who is we?

The world is pretty much how you would expect it to be if it had come into existence through natural processes, and changed over time in accordance with the laws of physics and basic chemistry. Life is perfectly attuned to this environment by evolution. I haven't ever seen anywhere a single thing which could ONLY be explained by your god's magic.

The word ONLY is the key to your fallacious argument that evidence from god is everywhere. The stuff you attribute to your god has to be ONLY attributable to your god for it to be of any evidential value to anyone else. If there is an explanation within the laws of nature (physics, chemistry etc) then you have to show why those forces didn't form that object or that phenomenon before you can claim that it is evidence of your god's existence and handiwork.

So far, your handwaving amounts to the princely total of a big fat nothing. However, as I said previously, provide me with testable, repeatable, falsifiable evidence that supports your case and I will change my views immediately.

mikeb768 said:
just start with the OP for example.
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:sdl:

You are joking, aren't you?
 
MikeG said:
........mikeb768......what would impress us much more would be a list of as-yet-unfulfilled predictions, which we could then tick off as they happened. Any chance of that list?

And what about a list of those predictions which have turned out to be outright failures? Don't suppose you have that to hand, do you?
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How's work coming along on these lists, Mike?

You've had 2 months so far. How much more time do you need?
 
mikeb768 said:
...Just start with the things which have been mentioned in the OP for example.

So far the only recourse to the Quran's historically accurate reference to Haman, has been to spin a number of lies in order to try and confuse people and steer them away from the truth. Post#364

But this is just one example.
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No, Mike you are the liar. You have been repeatedly shown that the stuff that you peddle is inaccurate, incomplete or downright false and deceptive. And yet, you repeat your apologetic drivel as if it were gospel.

I don't understand it.

Do you think people are stupid?
 
Craig B said:
What lies? I have gone through the evidence about Haman in great detail, providing sources where appropriate.
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Maybe you and Tim's posts were too complicated. I mean there were whole paragraphs at times, sentences with subordinate clauses, big words etc. It makes it easy to act as if didn't understand.

Craig B said:
Now tell me what lies I have told. Exactly what lies, please? I require an answer to this, by the way.
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I would like to see that too. (But maybe we are stupid?)
 
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