Split Thread Legality of Prostitution

[banquetbear]

banquetbear
Just wanted to genuinely say thanks for taking the time with me to explain your views. This is not really much of an issue in the US yet, that's definitely too bad. This is a subject where I do not have strong views and am still working with and comparing ideas.

...I appreciate your thoughts. Just bear in mind though: you are approaching this as an "intellectual exercise." I can't do that: I know too many people that have been hurt or are dead because of the way things used to be.

I was raised in a religious bubble a bit like a cult, I like to assert that I am an atheist but also aware there there is a sense I am never completely free. So a tool I use is to try and see the issue from other's point of view, to break things down and try to think differently for just a little while. My strategy on the information I posted was to simply work backward: If I lived in NZ, what issues might I find there? I am sorry of some of those sites have religious links but that does not mean that I advocate their views.

I don't care if an organisation is religious or not. The authors of your cite was an interesting aside after I had examined the work they presented. It is perfectly possible to be a religious organisation and to have views that I agree with: even though I'm an atheist. I happen to disagree with the views in your cite: not because they are religious but because they argue from emotion and not from objective evidence.

I definitely have some problems understanding how the government there works. It seems much more parental than here. I'm not saying wrong but just a different mindset that influences things very broadly.

It is much less paternal. If I decide to have sex in exchange for money here, the State doesn't interfere unless one of the principals set up to ensure the safety of the participants is violated. How do you see that as "more parental?" Your state has stricter controls on not only what you can do with your money but also what you can do with your body.

The difficulty I have is not so much in legalization, but in thinking of prostitution as a business - I find the ethics of it too hard to overcome. If I owned a business with 2000 people, but every year it included 20 of them to be beaten and abused just a part of doing business - I would abandon the business. So for me to accept these business owners as advocates and spokespeople for women's dignity or equality seems fundamentally flawed. I could understand a view that maybe we should accept this violence as always there and so this is a compromise. I'm not like 'aargh' this is icky.

But this isn't about you. You don't need to be an advocate and spokesman for women's (and mens of course) dignity or equality. People in the sex industry are more than capable of advocating for themselves. What they want though is for people (like you) to start listening, and to stop lecturing.

I am genuinely curious about how NZ does with their laws. No, I could not find any statistics and I suspect the lack of statistics is on purpose.

Why on earth would you think that? We hardly live in a police state here. You are making an assumption that there has to be a problem: you don't need to do that. If you think the government is hiding something then let me know and I'm more than happy to make an official information request on your behalf.

There are some statistics, but they do with the impact that disassociation causes. To be dismissive about statistics that show prostitution does harm to women's mental health and future success does leave me with nothing much else to say here.

I'm dismissive of statistics you haven't produced. I don't think that there is anything wrong with that.

This is a secular site that has statistics. They don't really make a single specific argument that is convincing that prostitution is part of a spectrum of violence, but they have quite a collection. As a male, I'm not sure I could ever completely accept their view - a pattern of thinking I probably can't escape. But I found it interesting reading if there are those like me who are interested in getting a broader view of the opinions.

The cite may well be "secular", but I would hardly call it objective or scientific and I can't track down many of the article's primary sources. For example, Sheila makes the claim that "40 percent of clients had used prostituted women without wearing condoms" which doesn't jibe with the statistics that I'm familiar with, and is contradicted by this cite here, which is more in line with my knowledge of the industry.

http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/proceedings/14/perkins.pdf


"Condoms were used by 98 per cent of the 1990-91 sample in sexual contacts with
their clients. The survey found 95 per cent of prostitutes used them on every occasion
regardless of the type of sexual activity or the familiarity of the clients. This is a considerable increase on the 1985-86 samples where only 70 per cent of the prostitutes surveyed used condoms on every occasion. "

Both of the sets of statistics are a quarter of a century old. You can't blame the failure to curb police corruption on the sex industry. There isn't anything particularly convincing in your cite that would lead me to want to make prostitution no longer legal here.

 

[dafydd]

If someone is perfectly willing to be "someone elses mastrubatory device" in exchange for money: why should you or I care?

Hear hear. Why can't some people mind their own business?

 

[BenBurch]

Hear hear. Why can't some people mind their own business?

The need to feel superior to another person is usually the core reason. Jealousy is also quite common.

 

[Anerystos]

I'm against prostitution because of two things:
- legalizing it obviously didn't work
- it violates the intimate zone and is therefore not healthy

Everyone of us has an intimate zone that only loved ones are allowed to enter. If someone violates that zone we react with discomfort and try to get out of that situation. Prostitutes are forced to violate that zone often, that can't be healthy.
Comparing it to no-so-likable jobs doesn't cut it imo, cleaning toilets doesn't violate your intimate zone.

I am always suspicious when I see a statement which starts “everyone … ”.

In the present context of “personal bubble”, I have one, you (presumably) have one and (some) other people seem to. But we are not “everyone”.
Maybe there are people who either don't have one do not have one or, if they do, don't object to others invading it.

Try: Suzette Haden Elgin. Try to feel it my way New help for touch dominant people and those who care about them.

I am touch dominant. I can't abide people touching me, unless they are emotionally close – i.e., my wife. I can find public transport uncomfortable for that reason. People who are vision dominant may not feel the same way.

As an example of “dominant sensory mode”, last week we were trying to select a new carpet. I had to explain to the salesman that it was no use looking to me for a decision about colour. I am not colour blind; I am colour stupid. I can see colour, but it means very little to me.

This is a long way round to the idea that maybe prostitutes don't have the same thing as a "personal bubble".

 

[ponderingturtle]

Your rights end where public safety and health begins.

So we get back to criminalizing sodomy now?

 

[Anerystos]

In the present context of “personal bubble”, I have one, you (presumably) have one and (some) other people seem to. But we are not “everyone”.
Maybe there are people who either don't have one do not have one or, if they do, don't object to others invading it.

Sorry about the lousy English. As someone who complains about other people's poor use of English, I feel quiite embarrassed.

It should, of course, read " ... who either don't have one or, if they do, ... ".

I hang my head in contrition.

 

[BardKesnit]

- it violates the intimate zone and is therefore not healthy

Everyone of us has an intimate zone that only loved ones are allowed to enter. If someone violates that zone we react with discomfort and try to get out of that situation. Prostitutes are forced to violate that zone often, that can't be healthy.

Not everyone feels the same way. There are people who work as prostitutes who have no moral or emotional issues. They do the work because it pays well and they enjoy it. (Better than flipping burgers at a fast-food restaurant!)

Also, if your statement was true, there would never be any "last call hookups" in bars. Some people can and do separate sex and emotion. Sex can be just for fun. There's no requirement that one party be getting something (other than enjoyment) from the encounter.

It also promotes the unhealthy idea that men are owed sex from women.

Men also work as prostitutes. Does that mean women are owed sex from men? Or men are owed sex from men?

If they don't get any, it's ok to buy a woman.

I know you mean this as a negative, but it really isn't.

Prostitutes are not only about "wham, bam, thank you ma'am." There are some people who will hire a call girl because they want companionship. Someone to pay attention to them, and treat them like the more important person in the world. Maybe the client is shy and has problems meeting people socially. Maybe the client is extremely obese and never gets a second look from people. Maybe the client lost his/her spouse and is slowly recovering.

However, there is no right to sex, you got two hands, there are also toys that can be used alone or with your partner.

There is a big difference between using a blow-up doll and feeling the touch of another human being.

 

[Akri]

Side note: It also promotes the unhealthy idea that men are owed sex from women. If they don't get any, it's ok to buy a woman. If they don't get what they want at home, it's ok to buy a woman.

Prostitution is not slavery. Paying a prostitute to sleep with you is not buying her (or him--as has been noted, it is not a female-only profession). It's paying for a service. You may as well argue that hiring a handyman is "buying a man" to be used as slave labor.

However, there is no right to sex

There's also no right to tell other people that they aren't allowed to charge money for sex.

Using another human being as a mastrubatory device: not cool.

There are women and men who enjoy being used in such a way. Acting like their sexual preferences are wrong because you don't share those preferences? Not cool.

 

[marplots]

There are women and men who enjoy being used in such a way.

Is there some way, as a john, I might be assured of this so that I am not acting unethically by forcing someone to participate in an act they'd rather not do?

 

[Cavemonster]

Is there some way, as a john, I might be assured of this so that I am not acting unethically by forcing someone to participate in an act they'd rather not do?

Every time you use a public restroom you are part of making someone clean that restroom, which I assure you they'd rather not do.

 

[kerikiwi]

Is there some way, as a john, I might be assured of this so that I am not acting unethically by forcing someone to participate in an act they'd rather not do?

If you are forcing someone to have sex with you, you belong in jail.
If you are paying someone to have sex with you, neither of you belongs in jail.

 

[desertgal]

Is there some way, as a john, I might be assured of this so that I am not acting unethically by forcing someone to participate in an act they'd rather not do?

Why not ask the someone straight out?

 

[Cavemonster]

Not everyone feels the same way. There are people who work as prostitutes who have no moral or emotional issues. They do the work because it pays well and they enjoy it. (Better than flipping burgers at a fast-food restaurant!)

While I do support the legalization of prostitution, I want to address this.

I can't speak directly to prostitution, but porn, which is another form of sex for money, seems to have a high proportion of workers who may project while they're in the industry that they have no negative issues, but who articulate later that it was a very negative experience and something they deeply regret.

Watch the documentary "After Porn" for examples.

And while, I don't think it's necessarily the government's job to protect adults from things they may regret, I also don't think we should paint too rosy a picture.

Legalization is good because prostitution will continue no matter what, and sunlight will help curb some abuses. But it's still an industry that damages a lot of people. An industry that, even where it's legal, is plagued by human trafficking, and a lot of harm.

There are, I'm sure, some number of prostitutes who work in the trade, go on with the rest of their life and have only positive repercussions, or for whom its effect is comparable only to other unideal jobs. I don't know what proportion we're looking at, but I'd venture to guess these are not the majority.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Can anyone come up with a rationale for prostitution being illegal?

Does the citizen really want the government to tax poontang?

 

[Akri]

Is there some way, as a john, I might be assured of this so that I am not acting unethically by forcing someone to participate in an act they'd rather not do?

You need help figuring out how to not force people to do things?

Well, here's a simple rule of thumb: if the only consequence of the prostitute not doing what you want is that you won't pay (because the service wasn't rendered), and if you make no attempt to convince the prostitute that there will be other consequences, then you have not forced anyone to do anything.

As for finding out how they actually feel about the situation (beyond being willing or unwilling to go along with it) you'd have to talk to them. Just like you would with anyone else in any other profession.

 

[BenBurch]

You need help figuring out how to not force people to do things?

Well, here's a simple rule of thumb: if the only consequence of the prostitute not doing what you want is that you won't pay (because the service wasn't rendered), and if you make no attempt to convince the prostitute that there will be other consequences, then you have not forced anyone to do anything.

As for finding out how they actually feel about the situation (beyond being willing or unwilling to go along with it) you'd have to talk to them. Just like you would with anyone else in any other profession.

One summer during college I worked for a sewer contractor. I had to dig out people's septic sewer lines. I don't think I have to tell you that it was gross.

Was I forced to do it? Nope. Did I want to be doing it? Not really, but I needed the money.

 

[marplots]

The premise was that some people enjoy being prostitutes, so prostitution isn't going against their desires in that case, making it ethical.

There are women and men who enjoy being used in such a way.

Is there some way, as a john, I might be assured of this so that I am not acting unethically by forcing someone to participate in an act they'd rather not do?

Every time you use a public restroom you are part of making someone clean that restroom, which I assure you they'd rather not do.

So, I should ignore the position of the prostitute as well as the toilet cleaner, both of whom are working to take care of my biological needs?

If you are forcing someone to have sex with you, you belong in jail.
If you are paying someone to have sex with you, neither of you belongs in jail.

Is it also jail-worthy if someone else (perhaps a pimp) is doing the forcing and I am merely taking advantage of the situation?

 

[kerikiwi]

Is it also jail-worthy if someone else (perhaps a pimp) is doing the forcing and I am merely taking advantage of the situation?

Yes. There is no 'merely taking advantage'.
If someone commits a robbery then sells you the proceeds, you are not 'merely taking advantage'. You are guilty of a crime.

 

[The Don]

One summer during college I worked for a sewer contractor. I had to dig out people's septic sewer lines. I don't think I have to tell you that it was gross.

Was I forced to do it? Nope. Did I want to be doing it? Not really, but I needed the money.

Did you suffer long-term consequences from your decision to take this job resulting from society's bias against sewer workers ?

Can you understand that there may be a difference between being forced by economic necessity to do unpleasant manual labour and being forced by economic necessity to become a sex worker and suffer the stigma for the rest of your life ?

Now legalising prostitution may result in the stigma being reduced but personally I think there are sufficient people with a moral objection to prostitution to eliminate it altogether. My personal opinion is that prostitution should be legal as long as the decision to become a prostitute is informed.

 

[BenBurch]

Did you suffer long-term consequences from your decision to take this job resulting from society's bias against sewer workers ?

Can you understand that there may be a difference between being forced by economic necessity to do unpleasant manual labour and being forced by economic necessity to become a sex worker and suffer the stigma for the rest of your life ?

Now legalising prostitution may result in the stigma being reduced but personally I think there are sufficient people with a moral objection to prostitution to eliminate it altogether. My personal opinion is that prostitution should be legal as long as the decision to become a prostitute is informed.

No, but in parts of the world there was/is such a stigma about those who handle waste or handle the dead. I'm just saying there is little practical difference in terms of being "degraded" between having to muck out somebody's **** and being paid to suck somebody's genitals... And sexwork generally PAYS better.

I've been working for sexworker's rights since the 1980s, and for about 15 years ran an influential private mailing list for sexworkers and rights advocates, so there is very little about this subject that I am not acquainted with.