Shrien Dewani - Honeymoon murder

That razor needs sharpening

For Dewani to have conducted himself as he did without being in cahoots with the taxi driver would have been far more dangerous and reckless. So apart from your personal incredulity, there's no basis for your argument.
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They didn't take a ring she stuffed down the back seat where it was found. But they did take an Armani wrist watch and a diamond bracelet (among other things). They took her handbag also. They took R90,000 worth of stuff that was no part of the alleged deal at all, allegedly. The reason I suspect the jewellery was not fenced was because there was not supposed to be a murder and the idea of hawking around town distinctive and very hot items suddenly became a lot less attractive than it would have been if they had simply robbed them and waited for them to fly out before cashing in.

There you go again. Cash can be exchanged at face value. The jewellery might have an insurance/retail value of R90,000 but you would never get anywhere near that on the black market. Stop trying to bolster your argument with valuations that are preposterous. You can do better than that.

As to the robbery gone wrong theory. How does Tongo explain the car jacking, him being dropped off outside the police barracks and not reporting it immediately? If both passengers survive and detail how they were taken to the township who are the police going to point the finger at first?
 
There you go again. Cash can be exchanged at face value. The jewellery might have an insurance/retail value of R90,000 but you would never get anywhere near that on the black market. Stop trying to bolster your argument with valuations that are preposterous. You can do better than that.

As to the robbery gone wrong theory. How does Tongo explain the car jacking, him being dropped off outside the police barracks and not reporting it immediately? If both passengers survive and detail how they were taken to the township who are the police going to point the finger at first?

The way this works in Mexico is that the cab driver takes the tourists to the robbers and then pretends to be a victim himself. As long as it's a property crime, the police don't do much. Half the time the tourists don't even report it.

It might work the same way in South Africa.
 
There you go again. Cash can be exchanged at face value. The jewellery might have an insurance/retail value of R90,000 but you would never get anywhere near that on the black market. Stop trying to bolster your argument with valuations that are preposterous. You can do better than that.

As to the robbery gone wrong theory. How does Tongo explain the car jacking, him being dropped off outside the police barracks and not reporting it immediately? If both passengers survive and detail how they were taken to the township who are the police going to point the finger at first?

Yes, I already accepted the point that this stuff would not be sold retail. I have not seen anybody on the other side acknowledge that its value would be greater without a murder. You should put your question to Tongo himself since we know he did plan a hi-jacking. How do you explain Shrien calling for assistance at once after he got dropped off? And doing a good impression of someone in great distress (an act he also managed to perform when walking alone on the corridors of his hotel)?

We don't know quite how the township drive was packaged and sold. Tongo was their guide, not just their driver. He might have made suggestions .. but not too many. It's true, and I accept the force of the point, that he had to get them into the township without attracting suspicion. Not just once but twice too. I don't know how he did that but I can play the same brain cell card as you guys - Tongo is may just be an inexperienced moron who didn't think this through. I suspect his judgment was that the cops just would not be that interested in a run-of-the-mill robbery of two stupid tourists out and about covered in expensive jewellery.

Charlie made the point the BBC also raised: why did the SA authorities decline Shrien's invitation to interview him in the UK? The question above is one of many I would expect the police to ask in the course of an enquiry like this as a routine part of the investigation.

Post-script - I asked an old friend in the insurance business, with specific experience of insuring high value jewellery about premiums and he thinks they could have been covered under an inexpensive world wide policy. So that's against me, as I thought it would be hard to enjoy cover in the specific situation. I still rely on the fact the jewellery was not factored into the alleged plot as an anomaly.
 
The way this works in Mexico is that the cab driver takes the tourists to the robbers and then pretends to be a victim himself. As long as it's a property crime, the police don't do much. Half the time the tourists don't even report it.

It might work the same way in South Africa.


Violent crime against tourists is actually very rare here. Apart from the usual crimes of opportunity, our reputation for large-scale violent crime relates mostly to the gap between rich and poor.

This isn't Columbia where tourists are routinely kidnapped etc.
 
This was just posted on PMF.org, I know nothing about this person, but for interest.

I'm an Australian Citizen currently stationed in Kenya (East Africa) working on an IT Project. I develop Web Solutions, hence the my Internet presence. I studied in the UK at Loughborough Uni where I got my Bsc. Originally from Kenya, I migrated to Australia some years back & returned to my home country to work on a Project. I've been in Nairobi for last 3 years. Can't tell for sure when I will heading back to Perth.

Just like Meredith, I too was a foreign student in the UK living at the campus. Meredith's death was tragic.

I first heard about Meredith's case when our family's friend's son, Shrien Dewani, a Bristol based Businessman, is accused of having orchestrated he's wife murder during honeymoon to Cape Town SA. After a 3 year long extradition battle, Shrien, will be going to SA in 20 days from now to face trial for his alleged role (for which he is completely Guilty).
 
This was just posted on PMF.org, I know nothing about this person, but for interest.

I'm an Australian Citizen currently stationed in Kenya (East Africa) working on an IT Project. I develop Web Solutions, hence the my Internet presence. I studied in the UK at Loughborough Uni where I got my Bsc. Originally from Kenya, I migrated to Australia some years back & returned to my home country to work on a Project. I've been in Nairobi for last 3 years. Can't tell for sure when I will heading back to Perth.

Just like Meredith, I too was a foreign student in the UK living at the campus. Meredith's death was tragic.

I first heard about Meredith's case when our family's friend's son, Shrien Dewani, a Bristol based Businessman, is accused of having orchestrated he's wife murder during honeymoon to Cape Town SA. After a 3 year long extradition battle, Shrien, will be going to SA in 20 days from now to face trial for his alleged role (for which he is completely Guilty).

It would be nice to see confirmation he's going back willingly. I'm very dubious.
 
It would be nice to see confirmation he's going back willingly. I'm very dubious.
I know nothing about it, but it seems as rational for Dewani to do this as for Knox to murder her flatmate. I don't buy it. Contrary to some, I perceive motive outweighing clear and present risk to one's future to be a crucial element.
 
It would be nice to see confirmation he's going back willingly. I'm very dubious.


He's not going back willingly (and nor does that statement imply that he is going back willingly). He is being ordered to go back: the E&W courts have now decreed that his mental health situation is no longer a bar to his extradition, and have thus ordered his extradition to SA. He definitely does not want to go.

(I think that the apparent evidence indicates that Dewani was complicit in his wife's death, but I want to wait for the evidence to be presented and tested in court before taking a firmer position on that. Bus if he was complicit, that would certainly go a long way to explaining why he might be fighting against going back to SA to face trial.)
 
I know nothing about it, but it seems as rational for Dewani to do this as for Knox to murder her flatmate. I don't buy it. Contrary to some, I perceive motive outweighing clear and present risk to one's future to be a crucial element.


I see almost no points of comparison between Knox (or Sollecito) and Dewani, in regard to the actual murders themselves. Obviously there are current points of comparison regarding extradition (or potential extradition) and unwillingness to return from the home country to the country where the crime was committed and is being tried. But it's worth pointing out in that respect that Knox was willing to stay in Italy and assist the police in the immediate aftermath of the crime. It's only having experienced what she (and I and others) regard as a miscarriage of justice that she has become frightened and resistant to returning to Italy. By contrast, Dewani - if he believes that he can offer a good defence - should be feeling obliged to allow the SA courts to test the case judicially.
 
I see almost no points of comparison between Knox (or Sollecito) and Dewani, in regard to the actual murders themselves. Obviously there are current points of comparison regarding extradition (or potential extradition) and unwillingness to return from the home country to the country where the crime was committed and is being tried. But it's worth pointing out in that respect that Knox was willing to stay in Italy and assist the police in the immediate aftermath of the crime. It's only having experienced what she (and I and others) regard as a miscarriage of justice that she has become frightened and resistant to returning to Italy. By contrast, Dewani - if he believes that he can offer a good defence - should be feeling obliged to allow the SA courts to test the case judicially.
I was referring strictly to my belief in motive. This is clearly not a universal rule, and exceptions are everywhere, but if the act is not driven by immediate need, and the risk of being caught is very high, and the consequences of being caught life ruining, I would always seek alternate explanations, particularly in a multi perpetrator allegation, and where jail sentences are already being served. I see a parallel in these cases, but profess no knowledge of Dewani. In fact the extradition connection hadn't occurred to me, and doesn't impact on my argument.
 
He's not going back willingly (and nor does that statement imply that he is going back willingly). He is being ordered to go back: the E&W courts have now decreed that his mental health situation is no longer a bar to his extradition, and have thus ordered his extradition to SA. He definitely does not want to go.

(I think that the apparent evidence indicates that Dewani was complicit in his wife's death, but I want to wait for the evidence to be presented and tested in court before taking a firmer position on that. Bus if he was complicit, that would certainly go a long way to explaining why he might be fighting against going back to SA to face trial.)

I understood from earlier reports that he was going to fight this through the EHRC. So I was hoping to see confirmation, apart from a couple posts here, that he was returning to SA.
 
I understood from earlier reports that he was going to fight this through the EHRC. So I was hoping to see confirmation, apart from a couple posts here, that he was returning to SA.

Well, there's nothing in the local media here about it. I too, was under the impression that he intended taking his appeals to the EU supreme court of appeal (or whatever it's called)....
 
LondonJohn?


He is trying to apply to the ECHR for a so-called "Rule 39 Order", which allows the ECHR to impose interim measures. It is unlikely-to-impossible that the ECHR will grant a Rule 39 Order in this case: it is only empowered to do so if the applicant "faces a real risk of serious, irreversible harm if the measure is not applied".

http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/PD_interim_measures_ENG.pdf

Therefore in my opinion (and, it appears, the opinion of practically all disinterested commentators) Dewani's application to the ECHR - if indeed he has lodged one at all - will be pretty summarily dismissed.


I suppose I slightly misinterpreted the word "willing" in your (ambiguous) post to imply that Dewani might be now be fully "up for" going to SA to face trial. Of course, it appears that the true position is that Dewani is still trying to use all possible means to prevent his extradition and trial, and that he is categorically opposed to going to SA if he can at all avoid it.
 
Well, there's nothing in the local media here about it. I too, was under the impression that he intended taking his appeals to the EU supreme court of appeal (or whatever it's called)....

ECHR European Court of Human Rights I think, out of my league, definitely for LondonJohn or Anglolawyer
 
He's not going back willingly (and nor does that statement imply that he is going back willingly). He is being ordered to go back: the E&W courts have now decreed that his mental health situation is no longer a bar to his extradition, and have thus ordered his extradition to SA. He definitely does not want to go.

(I think that the apparent evidence indicates that Dewani was complicit in his wife's death, but I want to wait for the evidence to be presented and tested in court before taking a firmer position on that. Bus if he was complicit, that would certainly go a long way to explaining why he might be fighting against going back to SA to face trial.)

Being raped and getting AIDS while awaiting trial might have something to do with it (as might being framed):

There is also a serious, and well recognised, problem with gang culture in prisons. Such problems have existed for over 100 years, and exist across the country. Western Cape has a significant gang problem. Non-gang members bear the brunt of gang violence and intimidation. The violence includes sexual violence such as rape. Examples of specific violence were provided by the witnesses. Official figures were provided but the witnesses thought it very likely that many assaults are unreported, for example for fear of victimization. Over the years great concern has been shown by the authorities about the problem. The experts have both worked with government departments who are attempting to improve the position. However progress has been impeded by various factors including lack of continuity and different levels of commitment by key members of staff. This means that, in the view of the witnesses, staff are not given enough guidance and not enough is done to prevent gang violence and sexual violence in particular.

A number of specific heightened risks were highlighted for Mr Dewani . The risk to him of contracting HIV in prison springs from his vulnerability to sexual violence and coercion in prison. He fits the profile of someone who is particularly vulnerable to such abuse. He appears to lack "street wisdom". He does not involve himself in the direct perpetration of violence. He appears to be good-looking, youthful and physically well preserved. There has been a suggestion that he may be gay. If he is mentally disabled this is another vulnerability factor. Although wealth can be a protective factor, there is evidence that wealth needs to be linked to aggression, and an ability to fight back. The witnesses said that even if Mr Dewani were held as the sole occupant of a single cell, he would nevertheless be vulnerable to assault. He would not be in his cell all the time, but would exercise, take meals, shower, and have other contact with prisoners. Moreover it is not uncommon for prisoners to stray from their section to another section of the prison. Much of the serious violence occurs at night. Where there is only one person on duty at night after lock-up, as appears to be the case at Goodwood, a variety of situations could arise that would leave a prisoner exposed. It is usual for a member of staff to be locked in with the inmates, although the witnesses had not visited Goodwood, and could not comment upon the particular set-up there. The member of staff has no master key, therefore cannot unlock, and so needs to call for assistance from elsewhere. In addition, there are documented cases, and in particular anecdotal evidence, about the prevalence of attacks, including sexual attacks, on the way to court or in the cells at the court. In South Africa police convey prisoners to court. Although arguably the supervising judge has a mandate to oversee conditions in court cells, in practice the judge does not visit holding cells.
 
Being raped and getting AIDS while awaiting trial might have something to do with it (as might being framed):


I very strongly suspect that the SA authorities have already give firm assurances that Dewani will be adequately protected while in custody in SA, and that he will be segregated if they or he feel that to be necessary. While the sorts of incidents you describe above may well be common (endemic, even) in SA prisons, it is not difficult to ensure, if required, that they categorically do not and cannot happen to any specific person in custody.

I don't think that this issue has a cat in hell's chance of constituting a reasonable defence against extradition for Dewani.
 
And the "getting framed" part is unfortunately a risk he has to take. It categorically does not fall under the ECHR's Rule 39 Order conditions.

I confidently predict that if Dewani does try to apply to the ECHR to avoid/postpone extradition, his application will be swiftly thrown out.
 

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