Shrien Dewani - Honeymoon murder

Be careful of judging people who live very different lives in very different countries by your own standards.

Life in an African township is a great deal cheaper than you imagine.

What's that got to do with anything? Tongo's basic monthly salary (less than his actual earnings) was exactly what we are expected to believe to would accept for being a party to murder. Talking about "townships" with the inherent implications of dire poverty is bollocks when we can see where Tongo actually lived.
 
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Then you were labouring under a misapprehension. I was questioning the idea that the average SA citizen could be so easily bought...

That's wonderful. Along with you, I would doubt the average South African would be. It just seemed to me you were trying to extrapolate from the actions of these murderers to the rest of the population. My mistake.
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How would Dewani have known all that, fresh off the plane?

How do you know he didn't know?

Someone planning to have his wife killed might do a bit of research. They might, for instance, plan a surprise honeymoon in a country known for its lawlessness and where life is cheap.

I'm looking for it somewhere, but I have seen a quote from him talking about a relative who died in a carjacking in SA a year or so before. He said it was an odd carjacking because his wallet wasn't stolen. I'll carry on trying to find it.

In this article

BBC interview

Dewani wants to talk to the BBC while he is still in SA, primarily to correct the story on the BBC website that somehow he made a mistake going into the township. He is very insistent that it was Anni's decision (nice). Anyway, he says in this article that he knows Africa, so maybe we can assume that he has done a little research.
 
How do you know he didn't know?

Someone planning to have his wife killed might do a bit of research. They might, for instance, plan a surprise honeymoon in a country known for its lawlessness and where life is cheap.

I'm looking for it somewhere, but I have seen a quote from him talking about a relative who died in a carjacking in SA a year or so before. He said it was an odd carjacking because his wallet wasn't stolen. I'll carry on trying to find it.

In this article

BBC interview

Dewani wants to talk to the BBC while he is still in SA, primarily to correct the story on the BBC website that somehow he made a mistake going into the township. He is very insistent that it was Anni's decision (nice). Anyway, he says in this article that he knows Africa, so maybe we can assume that he has done a little research.
I agree this is not a big point for him. He could easily have learned about the townships from relatives, friends or newspapers or anywhere. What seems to me to be a bigger problem is the idea that he would accost the first taxi driver he saw and proposition him to murder somebody just like that (as Tongo claims) and then there's the further problem of what the heck he was doing marrying her in the first place. All kinds of complicated theories about Indian culture and other nonsense have been offered supposedly to explain why a mature adult, already in his thirties, would feel so pressured by his culture or family as to marry someone so much against his own free will that he had to resort to murder to extricate himself.

I don't buy it.
 
How do you know he didn't know?
And as Anglolwayer suggests, even if that were the case, why would he casually accost almost literally the first person he met? More to the point, we're expected to believe that he got incredibly lucky that that person was supposedly happy to arrange a killing for the equivalent of his own monthly salary. Tongo seemed to be doing well for himself, so why would he risk throwing all away for so little money?
 
I agree this is not a big point for him. He could easily have learned about the townships from relatives, friends or newspapers or anywhere. What seems to me to be a bigger problem is the idea that he would accost the first taxi driver he saw and proposition him to murder somebody just like that (as Tongo claims) and then there's the further problem of what the heck he was doing marrying her in the first place. All kinds of complicated theories about Indian culture and other nonsense have been offered supposedly to explain why a mature adult, already in his thirties, would feel so pressured by his culture or family as to marry someone so much against his own free will that he had to resort to murder to extricate himself.

I don't buy it.

It does seem far fetched but I don't know that much about the culture apart from what I have read and it's difficult to comprehend that type of outlook. But it must exist to some extent because some people from that culture have said it exists and even outside the culture there is still discrimination and hostility towards homosexuals.

However, we know that there was definitely a conspiracy between Tongo and the two carjackers and the receptionist. All that remains is whether Dewani is part of the plot.

For my part, I find the coincidences and permutations of a plot not involving Dewani far less credible and likely than one where he is involved.

Quite apart from that, there have been 3 confessions all of which implicate Dewani.
 
But Tongo did decide to throw it away for so little money, and if you are right, he decided to throw it away for even less money, because he would have entered into an arrangement to rob his customers with three other individuals without any payment and have to rely simply in what money they could make from the robbery.

Damn did it again, this is to IA above.
 
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May I ask: is travelling by taxi considered unsafe in Cape Town? I have heard that it is but only anecdotally from a former SA colleague.

Depends on who you ask ;) It comes down to common sense mostly. Using Taxi's is generally safe, but I'd avoid getting into an empty or nearly empty one outside of rush-hour (not that you'll ever find an empty taxi at rush hour).

Your biggest risk is a traffic accident.
It's actually an interesting point - the public's opinion of taxi's has evolved over the years. Initially they were notorious for generally ignoring the rules of the road and driving dangerously. Fear of them was entrenched by protracted wars between rival associations over routes. Over time the sector has regulated itself and they've become accepted in society as playing a vital economic role (public transport systems are virtually non-existent and cars are expensive).While they still often ignore traffic laws, they're also the only vehicles on the road likely to let you in and they'll always acknowledge you.

Suffice to say that some of my most enjoyable (and least enjoyable - smelly) experiences of mass transit have been on an sa taxi .

Suffolk Skeptic your posts alleviate my guilt at retiring from the arguments (if not the actual thread heh). You've managed to express the points I might have raised much more eloquently than I could have.
 
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But Tongo did decide to throw it away for so little money, and if you are right, he decided to throw it away for even less money, because he would have entered into an arrangement to rob his customers with three other individuals without any payment and have to rely simply in what money they could make from the robbery.

Damn did it again, this is to IA above.

There's a huge difference between robbery and murder, even - I would contend - in South Africa.
 
But Tongo did decide to throw it away for so little money, and if you are right, he decided to throw it away for even less money, because he would have entered into an arrangement to rob his customers with three other individuals without any payment and have to rely simply in what money they could make from the robbery.

Damn did it again, this is to IA above.

SS please consider the jewellery. It was worth more than ten times as much as the paltry R25,000 (there is only evidence of a deal for R15000 btw). If the plan was, as I suggest, for Tongo to drive them out to be robbed of everything they stood up in that would be a nice little earner for the two hi jackers in terms of cash carried on Shrien's person or stuffed in an envelope or whatever and a huge bonanza for Tongo and Mbolombo to split the proceeds of the jewellery. Consider also:

  1. Tongo knew a dodgy jeweller - he took Shrien to see him to change cash illegally and, very important IMO
  2. The value of the jewellery was much higher (because less hot) if they did not kill anybody than if they did

Just think about it.
 
Depends on who you ask ;) It comes down to common sense mostly. Using Taxi's is generally safe, but I'd avoid getting into an empty or nearly empty one outside of rush-hour (not that you'll ever find an empty taxi at rush hour).

Your biggest risk is a traffic accident.
It's actually an interesting point - the public's opinion of taxi's has evolved over the years. Initially they were notorious for generally ignoring the rules of the road and driving dangerously. Fear of them was entrenched by protracted wars between rival associations over routes. Over time the sector has regulated itself and they've become accepted in society as playing a vital economic role (public transport systems are virtually non-existent and cars are expensive).While they still often ignore traffic laws, they're also the only vehicles on the road likely to let you in and they'll always acknowledge you.

Suffice to say that some of my most enjoyable (and least enjoyable - smelly) experiences of mass transit have been on an sa taxi .

Suffolk Skeptic your posts alleviate my guilt at retiring from the arguments (if not the actual thread heh). You've managed to express the points I might have raised much more eloquently than I could have.

Thank you for the information.
 
It does seem far fetched but I don't know that much about the culture apart from what I have read and it's difficult to comprehend that type of outlook. But it must exist to some extent because some people from that culture have said it exists and even outside the culture there is still discrimination and hostility towards homosexuals.

However, we know that there was definitely a conspiracy between Tongo and the two carjackers and the receptionist. All that remains is whether Dewani is part of the plot.

For my part, I find the coincidences and permutations of a plot not involving Dewani far less credible and likely than one where he is involved.

Quite apart from that, there have been 3 confessions all of which implicate Dewani.

How many? The only one of the four who had any contact with Shrien was Tongo. Mbolombo cannot give evidence of what Dewani and Tongo arranged and the hi-jackers are even further removed. But even if they had all squealed I would still not buy it because of the inducements offered to them in terms of reduced sentences and because we are talking about the SA police force, which is riddled with corruption and prone to casual violence.
 
What's that got to do with anything? Tongo's basic monthly salary (less than his actual earnings) was exactly what we are expected to believe to would accept for being a party to murder. Talking about "townships" with the inherent implications of dire poverty is bollocks when we can see where Tongo actually lived.

What's that got to do with anything? You are taking what you consider as normal and reasonable and inferring that that must also be normal and reasonable to someone who lives a very different life to yourself.

Just because its not reasonable to you, doesnt mean its not reasonable to someone who lives a very different life to you in a very different place.

To see what I'm trying to get at, look at Reggie Yates' excellent series about South Africa and the below linked episode about crime in Cape Town.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03ws1kh

That's how many stab wounds for a phone that will yield them a good deal less than R5k?

You should also bear in mind that even in London, in some subcultures, murders often result from actions that you and me might dismiss out of hand as being less than trivial (greeting or not greeting a person in a nightclub in the wrong way, for example).

When it comes to considering murder, there is an obsession with motive in our culture that's probably born of Poirot and Morse but does little to account for the fact that motive is entirely subjective.

We know, for example that many people will go on a murderous rampage just because someone in another country drew a cartoon.

It may seem bizarre to you and me that someone might partake of the capital crime for a month's salary but people kill for less.

Oh, and nice photos of a house in Bothasig by way, but I defy you to go walking around there at night.
 
SS please consider the jewellery. It was worth more than ten times as much as the paltry R25,000 (there is only evidence of a deal for R15000 btw). If the plan was, as I suggest, for Tongo to drive them out to be robbed of everything they stood up in that would be a nice little earner for the two hi jackers in terms of cash carried on Shrien's person or stuffed in an envelope or whatever and a huge bonanza for Tongo and Mbolombo to split the proceeds of the jewellery. Consider also:

  1. Tongo knew a dodgy jeweller - he took Shrien to see him to change cash illegally and, very important IMO
  2. The value of the jewellery was much higher (because less hot) if they did not kill anybody than if they did

Just think about it.

I have considered the jewelry. The most valuable item was left behind. The fact that Tongo took him to a jewelry store to change money is really stretching. Were any pieces of her jewelry found there? Unofficial money change places exist all over the shop in these places.

If Tongo's payment was to be the jewelry, why didn't they take it?

Then we return to what Dewani said about the rings - he gave them to the robbers.
 
How many? The only one of the four who had any contact with Shrien was Tongo. Mbolombo cannot give evidence of what Dewani and Tongo arranged and the hi-jackers are even further removed. But even if they had all squealed I would still not buy it because of the inducements offered to them in terms of reduced sentences and because we are talking about the SA police force, which is riddled with corruption and prone to casual violence.

If you feel like that about the SA police and prosecution authorities then you will not be swayed by any evidence that comes out at the trial I suppose?

Tongo got a reduced sentence to 18 years and one of the carjackers (the one who confessed) got 25 years. Are you saying that they were coerced to bring in Dewani, or do you think they made it up all by themselves?
 
Suffolk Skeptic your posts alleviate my guilt at retiring from the arguments (if not the actual thread heh). You've managed to express the points I might have raised much more eloquently than I could have.

I seriously doubt that, but thanks :)
 
I have considered the jewelry. The most valuable item was left behind. The fact that Tongo took him to a jewelry store to change money is really stretching. Were any pieces of her jewelry found there? Unofficial money change places exist all over the shop in these places.

If Tongo's payment was to be the jewelry, why didn't they take it?

Then we return to what Dewani said about the rings - he gave them to the robbers.

No rings seem to be among the stuff recorded as having been stolen. It seems Anni hid the most expensive ring down the back of the car seat.

You are not really addressing the jewellery problem. You have to consider the plan. In one plan they are to get only R15000 cash and nothing else. Despite all the other things real thieves would take. That plan makes no sense. It would have been better for Shiprien to ensure they took her jewellery but that she only travelled wearing the cheap stuff. Otherwise the cops would smell a rat. In the other plan, they will (in fact they did) take everything they could get their hands on.

The police theory, force fed I suspect down Tongo's throat, makes no sense at all.
 
If you feel like that about the SA police and prosecution authorities then you will not be swayed by any evidence that comes out at the trial I suppose?

Tongo got a reduced sentence to 18 years and one of the carjackers (the one who confessed) got 25 years. Are you saying that they were coerced to bring in Dewani, or do you think they made it up all by themselves?

Don't tell me I have to schlep around and find the report I dug up about there being hundreds of hardened criminals, including rapists and murderers, in the SA police, many in senior positions. These are the same cops filmed quite brazenly driving off with a guy handcuffed to the back of a police vehicle. He died. And the cops who opened fire on striking miners shooting them dead by the dozen. The chief of police in charge of the case against Shrien called him a 'monkey' and they tried to blackmail him to get him to give up his fight against extradition.

ETA just to add, I will believe nothing Tongo or the others say unless it is properly corroborated. I am not sure whether the case depends that much on police evidence but I am sure there is scope for them to screw around plenty. I will be persuaded when I see some evidence.
 
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No rings seem to be among the stuff recorded as having been stolen. It seems Anni hid the most expensive ring down the back of the car seat.

You are not really addressing the jewellery problem. You have to consider the plan. In one plan they are to get only R15000 cash and nothing else. Despite all the other things real thieves would take. That plan makes no sense. It would have been better for Shiprien to ensure they took her jewellery but that she only travelled wearing the cheap stuff. Otherwise the cops would smell a rat. In the other plan, they will (in fact they did) take everything they could get their hands on.

The police theory, force fed I suspect down Tongo's throat, makes no sense at all.

No, one plan involved a price and the bounty. The other plan involved just the bounty.

You are failing to address the point that Dewani told the police he gave the robbers her rings worth 25k. This ring was found hidden. Did they give them back and she hid them? Or is this another example of police corruption?
 
Don't tell me I have to schlep around and find the report I dug up about there being hundreds of hardened criminals, including rapists and murderers, in the SA police, many in senior positions. These are the same cops filmed quite brazenly driving off with a guy handcuffed to the back of a police vehicle. He died. And the cops who opened fire on striking miners shooting them dead by the dozen. The chief of police in charge of the case against Shrien called him a 'monkey' and they tried to blackmail him to get him to give up his fight against extradition.

ETA just to add, I will believe nothing Tongo or the others say unless it is properly corroborated. I am not sure whether the case depends that much on police evidence but I am sure there is scope for them to screw around plenty. I will be persuaded when I see some evidence.
I don't doubt you. We have the news today that the police in our lovely country spied on Stephen Lawrence's family. Corruption exists everywhere, but I accept without you having to drag out loads of articles, that it is bad in South Africa.

Sounds like the sort of country that is pretty lawless. Maybe a good place to choose for getting rid of an unwanted wife?

Oh, and the blackmail allegations were put out by Max Clifford's PR agency. You know that bloke, the one who has admitted to fabricating things to get his wealthy clients seen in a different light?

Anyway, even if they did, the fact is that they let him go. Then they wanted him to return to try to identify the attackers, even saying at that point at he was not a suspect. Did he go? By 'eck no!
 

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