Shrien Dewani - Honeymoon murder

Suffolk Skeptic said:
No, one plan involved a price and the bounty. The other plan involved just the bounty.

You are failing to address the point that Dewani told the police he gave the robbers her rings worth 25k. This ring was found hidden. Did they give them back and she hid them? Or is this another example of police corruption?
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I agree it's an oddity but I can't see why, even if guilty, he would have to make anything up. One should not assume these things are lies but, if they are, it's usually good to try to work out what purpose the lie serves.
 
Information Analyst said:
And as Anglolwayer suggests, even if that were the case, why would he casually accost almost literally the first person he met? More to the point, we're expected to believe that he got incredibly lucky that that person was supposedly happy to arrange a killing for the equivalent of his own monthly salary. Tongo seemed to be doing well for himself, so why would he risk throwing all away for so little money?
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In 2005, there was a murder here that received a lot of media attention, where a woman hired several men to kill the baby of her boyfriend.

The woman, Dina Rodrigues, was a middle-class white woman. To the surprise of many, she was able to find three men willing to do the job at a Cape Town taxi rank.

If she could do so, there is no reason why someone like Dewani, could not do so as well.

You are also presenting a rather rosy picture of Tongo's lifestyle. R5000 does not go very far, (it might just cover the monthly rental for a two bedroom flat in a non slum area) and I doubt he received R2000 every month in tips, especially if he is driving tourists around. He might do so during tourist season, but not in July. And we have only his boss's word - how would he know? - as to how much he made moonlighting.
 
anglolawyer said:
I agree it's an oddity but I can't see why, even if guilty, he would have to make anything up. One should not assume these things are lies but, if they are, it's usually good to try to work out what purpose the lie serves.
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I am cautious about going into behaviour after tragic events to presume guilt. People behave in all sorts of ways. People lie for reasons totally unconnected to guilt of the offence. Judges always caution the jury if a defendant is caught in a lie that this is not determinate of their guilt. I try to avoid the arguments which basically go down the line of "well I would never do that ergo they must be guilty".

In this case, the evidence is not all out there. For instance, if the text from Dewani saying the money is in the pouch exists, then it's a slam dunk for the prosecution, but this text hasn't been released so it's existence is not guaranteed.

So we are reduced to speculating without firm evidence. Especially those who are of the opinion that 3 confessions and a conviction are not hard evidence. So we must look at what Dewani said and did and form some kind of opinion. Well, I do anyway.

If he didn't need to make anything up, why did he take such pains to say that the idea to go into the townships was Anni's? The BBC reporter said when he spoke to him in SA that was what he wanted to talk about - the fact that the website (showing that Dewani had been reading the website) said they had made a mistake. Before Tongo was arrested he did a couple of interviews (as well as his statement) where he stressed that it was a last minute decision and Anni was insistent. Only when Tongo was arrested did he say that Tongo suggested it and they were like whatever.

Perhaps he is just a narcissist, and couldn't bear any of the blame to be put on him, and so lied to make himself look better. But perhaps someone like that would think they had gotten away with it and so would still lie. But the fact remains that when Tongo was arrested his account changed. And it had to. Because on his first account, there was no way that Tongo could have arranged the hit to take place. Which begs the question, if Tongo had planned it with others, and they were ready to pounce when they entered the township, Tongo would have had to have been involved in the conversation about what they should do. I don't go so far as saying he persuaded, but some suggestion must have been there from him. He must have been pretty confident that they would agree as well, because the robbers would have had to be on very short notice. Remember this is a planned conspiracy apparently between 4 people. Were they always on standby at every moment for the opportunity when the rich couple with the jewelry suddenly changed their itinery for dining and then suddenly agreed to go to the township?
 
Occam's Razor

Suffolk Skeptic said:
...For my part, I find the coincidences and permutations of a plot not involving Dewani far less credible and likely than one where he is involved.

Quite apart from that, there have been 3 confessions all of which implicate Dewani.
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And it would certainly be a twist for them to have confessed to a premeditated murder conspiracy if it was, in fact, not more than a robbery conspiracy gone bad. Usually works best to a perpetrator's advantage to confess (and plea bargain) their way *down* to offenses liable to be treated less severely by the court. Rather than confess/plea bargain their way *up* to crimes likely to be regarded as even more heinous than what they actually did.
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Better than putting an ad on craigslist

Quietus said:
...Dina Rodrigues...was able to find three men willing to do the job at a Cape Town taxi rank...
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I believe Dina paid out even less than Dewani did. And she had people standing in line wanting to take her up on her proposition. Which, as you mentioned, was for the cold blooded murder of an INFANT.

There's no issue here, really. History has already proven that if you're in the market for an assassin, you could do far worse than starting your recruitment campaign at the local taxi stand.
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lane99 said:
I believe Dina paid out even less than Dewani did. And she had people standing in line wanting to take her up on her proposition. Which, as you mentioned, was for the cold blooded murder of an INFANT.

There's no issue here, really. History has already proven that if you're in the market for an assassin, you could do far worse than starting your recruitment campaign at the local taxi stand.
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And the people who claim that it couldn't have been a hit because 15k rand was a ridiculously low figure fail to appreciate that this is the figure Tongo says was agreed. If Dewani was innocent and there was no "hit", why would Tongo then give a figure which was so ridiculously low? He would have said it was 25,000 rand, or 1 million rand, or whatever the going rate was?
 
Hubert Cumberdale said:
What's that got to do with anything? You are taking what you consider as normal and reasonable and inferring that that must also be normal and reasonable to someone who lives a very different life to yourself.

Just because its not reasonable to you, doesnt mean its not reasonable to someone who lives a very different life to you in a very different place.

To see what I'm trying to get at, look at Reggie Yates' excellent series about South Africa and the below linked episode about crime in Cape Town.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03ws1kh

That's how many stab wounds for a phone that will yield them a good deal less than R5k?

You should also bear in mind that even in London, in some subcultures, murders often result from actions that you and me might dismiss out of hand as being less than trivial (greeting or not greeting a person in a nightclub in the wrong way, for example).
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Thanks for the patronising lecture, but as my wife has actually worked nightclub security in London, I think I'm a little bit more up to speed with it than you are.

When it comes to considering murder, there is an obsession with motive in our culture that's probably born of Poirot and Morse but does little to account for the fact that motive is entirely subjective.

We know, for example that many people will go on a murderous rampage just because someone in another country drew a cartoon.

It may seem bizarre to you and me that someone might partake of the capital crime for a month's salary but people kill for less.

Oh, and nice photos of a house in Bothasig by way, but I defy you to go walking around there at night.
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All those words to try to justify the preposterous idea that someone clearly earning a good wage would suddenly casually agree to get involved in murder for less money than they make legitimately/semi-legitimately in a month.

Yeah, sure.
 
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Information Analyst said:
All those words to try to justify the preposterous idea that someone clearly earning a good wage would suddenly casually agree to get involved in murder for less money than they make legitimately/semi-legitimately in a month.

Yeah, sure.
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And (according to freakonomics) a lot of low level drug gang members work for the equivalent of less than minimum wage. Why do they do such a dangerous unrewarding job rather than just work in McDonalds?

Criminals make poor life choices and don’t expect to get caught.
 
Quietus said:
In 2005, there was a murder here that received a lot of media attention, where a woman hired several men to kill the baby of her boyfriend.

The woman, Dina Rodrigues, was a middle-class white woman. To the surprise of many, she was able to find three men willing to do the job at a Cape Town taxi rank.

If she could do so, there is no reason why someone like Dewani, could not do so as well.
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That sounds terrible, but considering there is only a single report of the case on the BBC News site, I think we can assume that the case didn't get reported much - if at all - in the UK. As noted, how is Dewani supposed to know how easy such things supposedly are in SA?

You are also presenting a rather rosy picture of Tongo's lifestyle. R5000 does not go very far, (it might just cover the monthly rental for a two bedroom flat in a non slum area) and I doubt he received R2000 every month in tips, especially if he is driving tourists around. He might do so during tourist season, but not in July. And we have only his boss's word - how would he know? - as to how much he made moonlighting.
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None of really changes the fact that is supposed cut of the "contract" in relation to his basic salary, let alone what he may have earned on top. It's rather amusing that some of the anti-Dewani camp persistently refer to him as the "illegal taxi driver," which ignores the fact that he was legitimately employed, but also corroborates the idea he was earning extra on the side. Oh, and then there's the fact that he could moonlight precisely because he owned his own vehicle. As I noted, there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that Tongo was in such dire need of money to the extent that the relatively modest amount of his supposed cut of the "contract" would be worth getting involved with murder for.
 
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lane99 said:
I believe Dina paid out even less than Dewani did. And she had people standing in line wanting to take her up on her proposition. Which, as you mentioned, was for the cold blooded murder of an INFANT.

There's no issue here, really. History has already proven that if you're in the market for an assassin, you could do far worse than starting your recruitment campaign at the local taxi stand.
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And yet this case seems to have resulted in only three mentions on .uk domains, only two of which are news sites. But somehow Dewani the criminal mastermind must have known all about it...
 
Suffolk Skeptic said:
And the people who claim that it couldn't have been a hit because 15k rand was a ridiculously low figure fail to appreciate that this is the figure Tongo says was agreed. If Dewani was innocent and there was no "hit", why would Tongo then give a figure which was so ridiculously low? He would have said it was 25,000 rand, or 1 million rand, or whatever the going rate was?
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Or... gasp... because R15,000 could be reasonably tied to the amount of cash Dewani could be shown to have?

Good grief, if the police's version of events was a conspiracy theory, people would be lining up to point out the glaring inconsistencies and contradictions in it!
 
Information Analyst said:
And yet this case seems to have resulted in only three mentions on .uk domains, only two of which are news sites. But somehow Dewani the criminal mastermind must have known all about it...
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If it's any help to anyone I formed a view from this rather well written piece, objective it can not be, and embedded are links to a lot of history. I now believe it seems logically difficult for Dewani to be either involved or uninvolved. I look forward to this thread resolving the irreconcilable.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ersonal-plea-for-my-cousin-Shrien-Dewani.html
 
Information Analyst said:
And if it was actually the money for the helicopter flight?
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Well, I suppose there might be some follow up questions, such as why not mention the money at the time as being stolen, you know, to the police or anyone. I mean, it's not as though the special surprise needed to be kept a secret anymore. There might be the question that when it was mentioned it was described as a special gift to be bought for Anni, and only turned into a helicopter ride after Panorama unearthed that possibility by finding some footage of the receptionist talking about a helicopter ride 3 years later.

Then of course there might be some questions about why pay for it by giving the money to Tongo rather than walking up to reception and handing it over.

Be nice to see a booking in either Dewani or Tongo's names.

But if it was for the helicopter ride then obviously I am wrong. Dewani is an innocent man. I'm awfully sorry for everything he's been through and good luck to him for the future.
 
Information Analyst said:
Or... gasp... because R15,000 could be reasonably tied to the amount of cash Dewani could be shown to have?

Good grief, if the police's version of events was a conspiracy theory, people would be lining up to point out the glaring inconsistencies and contradictions in it!
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Good grief, the people declaring his innocence keep banging on about how the figure of 15 k rand cannot be accounted for. So, it's a ridiculously low figure for organising a hit and it cannot be accounted for AND it was chosen as a figure by Tongo/the police to frame Dewani, yet is also apparently not the going rate and cannot be accounted for.
 
Information Analyst said:
That sounds terrible, but considering there is only a single report of the case on the BBC News site, I think we can assume that the case didn't get reported much - if at all - in the UK. As noted, how is Dewani supposed to know how easy such things supposedly are in SA?
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I apologise if I wasn't sufficiently clear, but it received a lot of attention in SA with numerous reports in all major outlets. I wasn't attempting to imply that it was reported at all, let alone repeatedly, in the UK.

My purpose in mentioning this particular case was to show how (disturbingly) easy it was for someone like her to find killers so easily, especially in light of race and class tensions which continue to this day. If someone like her could do it, then there is no reason why Dewani couldn't do so either.

I never considered it before, but on reflection it is entirely possible that the reports and commentary on the Rodrigues matter were seen by and influenced Dewani. There are a number of parallels including:
- connection with taxi industry;
- hitmen sought by a proverbial fish out of water;
- R10 000 paid to killers;
- disguised as a robbery gone bad

I'm not saying Dewani was even aware of this case, but it is plausible.

As I noted, there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that Tongo was in such dire need of money to the extent that the relatively modest amount of his supposed cut of the "contract" would be worth getting involved with murder for.
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Humbert Cumberdale has already provided a more than adequate response to this that I need not repeat.

I have a question for you: if you feel that Tongo did not do it, why did he enter into a plea and sentence agreement? You can read it here: http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAWCHC/2010/601.html

You can also search the database for the judgments given against the other murderers too if so inclined.
 
Suffolk Skeptic said:
Good grief, the people declaring his innocence keep banging on about how the figure of 15 k rand cannot be accounted for. So, it's a ridiculously low figure for organising a hit and it cannot be accounted for AND it was chosen as a figure by Tongo/the police to frame Dewani, yet is also apparently not the going rate and cannot be accounted for.
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I hope you aren't associating me with all of those. I'll own up to the highlighted part. I think the more recent BBC Panorama prog. (the one made after the police 'docket' was leaked) pointed to the fact that R10000 was unaccounted for. Shrien was supposed to have paid R14000 on the night (short-changing the hi-jackers by R1000) but there is no explanation of what happened to all of it. Qwabe and Mngeni spent the R4000 they got on T-shirts etc (how dreadfully sad) but don't seem to have returned or spent the other R10000. Funny. That can be lumped with R5000 supposed to have been agreed to be paid to each of Tongo and Mbolombo but of which there is no evidence either.

This is why I fancy the cops have played a part in fabricating this story, by consciously or unwittingly leading their pliant and desperate suspects along the path to a crazy and improbable story. It is just about stupid enough to have been thought up by a cop. I continue to be amazed that nobody here seems bothered by these obvious, gaping holes in the conspiracy theory. Why are people here getting excited about the R1000 in the carrier bag but not asking about the missing payments or what the deal was with the jewellery. Somebody please explain.
 
Information Analyst said:
Thanks for the patronising lecture, but as my wife has actually worked nightclub security in London, I think I'm a little bit more up to speed with it than you are.



All those words to try to justify the preposterous idea that someone clearly earning a good wage would suddenly casually agree to get involved in murder for less money than they make legitimately/semi-legitimately in a month.

Yeah, sure.
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Murder is much more common in SA 31.8 per 100,000 compared to the UK 1.2. Life is much cheaper there.
 
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