Shrien Dewani - Honeymoon murder

[anglolawyer]

The taxi driver did not have any serious criminal record before he met up with Dewani. Although he had had many well-off clients whom he could have ripped off if he was so inclined.

And, yes, the promise of 5000 rand seems to be about right for a hit in South Africa. What's the going rate where you live?
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Let's say the fee was R5000. When was this agreed? It doesn't seem to have been at the airport. If I recall, the deal was a hit for R15000. And why would Shrien care how the fee was to be divided? And, most importantly, when was the fee to be paid? Never? If it was paid, what did Tongo do with his cut? As a co-operative witness he surely told the cops about that didn't he? Same questions with Mbolombo.

And the jewellery. What about that? Were the hi-jackers just supposed to ignore it? Wouldn't that make it look less like a robbery? Surely they had to nick the jewellery too, but then that's way more than the R15000/25000 fee. More than 10 times as much. Were they to steal the jewellery and then route it back to Shrien?

I find it comical that you and the others seem to swallow whole a story concocted between a bunch of liars and the moronic SA police. But no doubt you have all the answers to hand and hopefully won't perform your usual disappearing act. I really would like a great mind brought to bear on these questions because they are really bugging me. Thanks in advance

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

Don't the alarm bells ring when male prostitutes are taken seriously as witnesses? In the world of male or female prostitutes or drug dealers, truth will be accidental. Murder one is a crazy way to escape a marriage, and I don't believe it, but will do further research with time.

By that token, you will be utterly persuaded by the senior political analyst.

To me, subject to motive and the possibility of drugs affecting recollection, a male prostitute is as credible as anyone else. This one says he has a picture of Dewani when Dewani visited him. We shall see.

There was an awful lot of telephone traffic connecting Tongo to the carjackers prior to the murder.

When Dewani got back to the UK he told the papers that the visit to the township was all Anni's idea, done at the last moment. This done after a change of plans for the evening meal. He said she insisted.

If Dewani is innocent, Tongo arranged with his mates have them robbed and/or killed, and lo and behold, on an evening when the couple decided en route to visit the "real Africa" Tongo was able to co-ordinate his mates into position at a moment's notice.

Of course, when Tongo was arrested he gave a different interview, saying that he and Anni were snuggling in the back of the taxi when the driver asked them if they wanted to go and see some African dancing they were like yeah ok without giving it another thought because they liked and trusted the driver.

 

[anglolawyer]

By that token, you will be utterly persuaded by the senior political analyst.

To me, subject to motive and the possibility of drugs affecting recollection, a male prostitute is as credible as anyone else. This one says he has a picture of Dewani when Dewani visited him. We shall see.

There was an awful lot of telephone traffic connecting Tongo to the carjackers prior to the murder.

When Dewani got back to the UK he told the papers that the visit to the township was all Anni's idea, done at the last moment. This done after a change of plans for the evening meal. He said she insisted.

If Dewani is innocent, Tongo arranged with his mates have them robbed and/or killed, and lo and behold, on an evening when the couple decided en route to visit the "real Africa" Tongo was able to co-ordinate his mates into position at a moment's notice.

Of course, when Tongo was arrested he gave a different interview, saying that he and Anni were snuggling in the back of the taxi when the driver asked them if they wanted to go and see some African dancing they were like yeah ok without giving it another thought because they liked and trusted the driver.

Can we have cites for these allegedly inconsistent statements please? There is no problem about Tongo getting them into the township. He was their guide and could easily have sold it as a tourist attraction

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

Can we have cites for these allegedly inconsistent statements please? There is no problem about Tongo getting them into the township. He was their guide and could easily have sold it as a tourist attraction

dewani statement to police

Where he says his wife insisted to see the nightlife

interview with Mail

Where he says they planned to come back to the city but Anni decided she wanted to see the real Africa

interview with the Sun

I can't retrieve the Sun one from the source because I am not a subscriber but it is reproduced here. He says the driver suggested it and they were not thinking and said yeah whatever

 

[anglolawyer]

dewani statement to police

Where he says his wife insisted to see the nightlife

interview with Mail

Where he says they planned to come back to the city but Anni decided she wanted to see the real Africa

interview with the Sun

I can't retrieve the Sun one from the source because I am not a subscriber but it is reproduced here. He says the driver suggested it and they were not thinking and said yeah whatever

OK, thanks for those. I can't say I am blown away by the inconsistencies but I see the point you are making.

 

[anglolawyer]

Here is the full text of the summary of substantial facts in the case against Tongo:

SUMMARY OF SUBSTANTIAL FACTS IN TERMS OF SECTION 144 (3)(a) ©F ACT 51 OF 1977


On 12 November 2010 Shrien Dewani and Anni Dewani, nee Hindocha, the deceased, arrived in Cape Town at the Cape Town International Airport. Shrien Dewani approached the accused, who operates a shuttle from the airport with his VW Sharan motor vehicle, to convey him and the deceased to the Cape Grace Hotel in the Waterfront.

After their arrival at the Cape Grace, Shrien Dewani approached the accused with a request to procure a hitman to have a woman killed for a fee of R15000.00. On a subsequent occasion the accused and Shrien Dewani discussed how this had to be done.
The accused set the process in motion by contacting a friend of his who put him (the accused) in touch with Mziwamadoda Qwabe. Qwabe, in turn, introduced the accused to Xolile Mngeni.

On the afternoon of Saturday 13 November 2010 the accused met with Mziwamadoda Qwabe and Xolile Mngeni to plan how the killing would be executed. Amongst others, they arranged that Mziwamadoda Qwabe and Xolile Mngeni would wait at a predetermined place in Gugulethu.

On Saturday evening, the accused collected Shrien Dewani and the deceased at the Cape Grace, as had been agreed earlier in the day with Shrien Dewani.

The accused drove to Gugulethu with the Dewanis, but Mziwamadoda Qwabe and Xolile Mngeni were not at the place they agreed on. The accused then drove to the Strand, where the Dewanis had supper.

The accused agreed with Mziwamadoda Qwabe to return to the predetermined place in Gugulethu when they left the Strand.

On their return from the Strand, the accused drove to Gugulethu where Xolile Mngeni and Mziwamadoda Qwabe 'hijacked' the motorvehicle, as had been agreed upon.

The deceased was then kidnapped, robbed of her possessions and murdered by being shot with a firearm. The deceased's body was subsequently found in Ilitha Park, Khayelitsha.
The accused, Shrien Dewani, Xolile Mngeni, Mziwamadoda Qwabe and a person known to the State had conspired to have the deceased kidnapped, robbed and murdered following a simulated hijacking in order to conceal the fact that the deceased was in fact kidnapped, robbed and murdered in the furtherance of a common purpose.

The post mortem report confirmed the cause of the deceased's death as a 'gunshot wound to the neck and therefore unnatural.'

Where in there is the extra R10,000 needed to pay Mbolombo and Tongo himself or any reference to the jewellery and other items stolen or available to be stolen?

 

[Information Analyst]

The taxi driver did not have any serious criminal record before he met up with Dewani. Although he had had many well-off clients whom he could have ripped off if he was so inclined.

And, yes, the promise of 5000 rand seems to be about right for a hit in South Africa.

So an unproven suspicion of past fraud somehow demonstrates a capacity to escalate to being a party to murder for less than a month's earnings? The point is not whatever the "going rate" in SA may or may not be, but whether it makes sense for someone earning more than it in any given month.

What's the going rate where you live?

I have no idea. Why is it even relevent?

 

[Information Analyst]

A perfectly valid assumption given the reality here. Yes, I honestly do. It's not as if it's hard to find someone willing to do the job. An afternoon spent making discreet inquiries in some of the more dangerous parts of town or (in this case) a few discussions with taxi operators (who often also deal drugs to supplement their income) should fairly easily turn up someone willing to do the deed.

How would Dewani have known all that, fresh off the plane?

 

[Skwinty]

Insufficient data. Though given that Skwinty seems to have abandoned his Willingham case thread maybe it's worth a look.

I abandoned that thread on the 18th February 2011.

 

[Octavo]

I think I will bow out of this thread

I honestly am not acquainted enough with the facts of the case to be able to hold as strong as opinion as I do, so rather than getting all defensive, I'll take my leave for now

Hopefully, I'll get to come back and sneer at the innocenti once he finally gets his just reward (a shared cell with a member of the 28's)

 

[anglolawyer]

I think I will bow out of this thread

I honestly am not acquainted enough with the facts of the case to be able to hold as strong as opinion as I do, so rather than getting all defensive, I'll take my leave for now

Hopefully, I'll get to come back and sneer at the innocenti once he finally gets his just reward (a shared cell with a member of the 28's)

A pity, what with you being 'boots on the ground' as it were. Why not stick around and just challenge know-it-alls like me to back up what we say?

 

[Octavo]

A pity, what with you being 'boots on the ground' as it were. Why not stick around and just challenge know-it-alls like me to back up what we say?

Well, I'll certainly follow the thread, but I have already had to bite back a few responses that would either had landed me in AAH or ended up making me look rather foolish. I don't deal with frustration well

I'll certainly contribute any new info that comes my way from the local media, but I think my POV has been made evident.

I was honestly surprised in the Oscar thread when so many people were convinced of his innocence. I'd assumed the media story overseas was the same as here, but obviously that's not the case.

I wonder if it's mainly the UK media that has played him up as innocent or if the SA media are the only ones who played him up as guilty as sin?

 

[The Don]

I wonder if it's mainly the UK media that has played him up as innocent or if the SA media are the only ones who played him up as guilty as sin?

The default position of the UK media is to put the best spin on the UK citizen so they will tend to emphasise their innocence if there is some doubt of their guilt or highlight mitigating factors if they are stone cold guilty (and perhaps hint at abuse of process or unfair prison conditions)

A woman who was caught smuggling drugs in Indonesia is portrayed as a grandmother (conjouring images of a silver haired person in their 70's doing nothing more alarming than knitting, baking cakes and distributing Werthers Originals) instead of someone who is in their 50s with a history of drugs crimes.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...peal-against-bali-death-sentence-8790838.html


edited to add...

and my impression is that foreigners who are charged in the UK are more likely to be portrayed as guilty as hell

In the case of Pistorious I can understand the doubt. Personally I have no idea whether he is a cold-eyed killer, a dangerous paranoid nutjob or perhaps both.

 

[anglolawyer]

Well, I'll certainly follow the thread, but I have already had to bite back a few responses that would either had landed me in AAH or ended up making me look rather foolish. I don't deal with frustration well

I'll certainly contribute any new info that comes my way from the local media, but I think my POV has been made evident.

I was honestly surprised in the Oscar thread when so many people were convinced of his innocence. I'd assumed the media story overseas was the same as here, but obviously that's not the case.

I wonder if it's mainly the UK media that has played him up as innocent or if the SA media are the only ones who played him up as guilty as sin?

Yes, please hang around. No need to stick your neck out. I agree with you about Oscar but cynically think he will get off. This one, I am way out on the pro-innocence side.

May I ask: is travelling by taxi considered unsafe in Cape Town? I have heard that it is but only anecdotally from a former SA colleague.

 

[Suffolk Skeptic]

Well, I'll certainly follow the thread, but I have already had to bite back a few responses that would either had landed me in AAH or ended up making me look rather foolish. I don't deal with frustration well

I'll certainly contribute any new info that comes my way from the local media, but I think my POV has been made evident.

I was honestly surprised in the Oscar thread when so many people were convinced of his innocence. I'd assumed the media story overseas was the same as here, but obviously that's not the case.

I wonder if it's mainly the UK media that has played him up as innocent or if the SA media are the only ones who played him up as guilty as sin?

I read a bit of the Pistorius thread and was surprised by the number of people who trumpeted things like the leaks about witnesses hearing arguing had been completely discredited.

We have the trial going on now, and the witnesses I have seen all sound credible, and much closer to the "action" than was first said. This suggests to me that the SA authorities are not so blundering as presumed and that they are well able to keep the evidence from leaking (in a way to try and implicate guilt as per the Knox/Sollecito case). In fact it appears that most of the selective leaking of evidence came from the defence.

There is a lot of evidence in the Dewani case which we just haven't seen yet. One of the main points of contention are the texts between Tongo and Dewani regarding the money. Tongo says that he texted Dewani to ask about the money and Dewani texted back to say it was in the pouch in the car in an envelope.

Panorama says there is no evidence of these texts. But when these texts were first spoken about, a spokesman for Dewani told the media that the money was for a surprise present for Anni to be bought by Tongo and an upfront payment for the use of the taxi while they were on holiday. Panorama say they tracked down a witness who saw the carjackers leave the car and then go back to the car to retrieve an envelope. Panorama says could this be for a helicopter trip? (and then show the receptionist talking about a helicopter trip for some unspecified person). But the carjackers knew about the envelope. So if Dewani didn't do it, Tongo arranged the carjacking for the night that the money was being handed over for the helicopter trip, rather fortuitously for him he was able to co-ordinate it despite the last minute change of plans by the couple as to where they were dining. He was also fortunate that despite being 30 minutes late to pick them up at the hotel, Dewani was content to wait for him rather than take a seemingly easily available option of taking another taxi or hotel car. The carjackers decided to put Dewani out of the car because they decided at the last minute to have their wicked way with Anni, but then decided not to have their wicked way with her and shot her instead. And then they remembered the money in the envelope (which they had been told about as containing he money for the helicopter trip).

Anyway, I can't give absolute evidence that he did it. I am satisfied myself but appreciate that there are things I do not know. This is one of those cases where I need to see the evidence in court.

 

[lane99]

Classic Motive

...Murder one is a crazy way to escape a marriage, and I don't believe it, but will do further research with time.

If you mean to suggest you don't believe the desire to escape an unwanted marriage is a plausible motive for premeditated murder, you'll really need to start your research at square one. You'll find as many examples of that as you're able to stomach.
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[lane99]

...I have no idea. Why is it even relevent?

Well it's certainly no less relevant than your insinuation that the entire citizenry of South Africa is sullied by the corrupt actions of the four SA conspirators attendant to the Dewani case.

More to the point, whatever the average one month's salary is where you live, you would quite conceivably be able to commission a job at that rate, were you so inclined.
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[lane99]

...one says he has a picture of Dewani when Dewani visited him...

And credit card receipts for services rendered.
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[Hubert Cumberdale]

So an unproven suspicion of past fraud somehow demonstrates a capacity to escalate to being a party to murder for less than a month's earnings? The point is not whatever the "going rate" in SA may or may not be, but whether it makes sense for someone earning more than it in any given month.

Be careful of judging people who live very different lives in very different countries by your own standards.

Life in an African township is a great deal cheaper than you imagine.

 

[Information Analyst]

Well it's certainly no less relevant than your insinuation that the entire citizenry of South Africa is sullied by the corrupt actions of the four SA conspirators attendant to the Dewani case.

Then you were labouring under a misapprehension. I was questioning the idea that the average SA citizen could be so easily bought. I doubt they can be, any more than anywhere else.

More to the point, whatever the average one month's salary is where you live, you would quite conceivably be able to commission a job at that rate, were you so inclined.

Maybe so, but not necesasrily from someone who was already earning that average. That's the poitn that you seem so unwilling to engage with, i.e. the question as to why Tongo would want to get involved in as serious a crime as murder for what - to him (in the absence of any proven dire need for money, e.g. gamble debts, a drug habit, or whatever) - would not be a great deal of money. A simple robbery, on the other hand...