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Split Thread Legality of Prostitution

??? I have never met anyone who was injured during sex. Please expound.

I was injured during sex once... but it was a pretty advanced position, on a trundle bed which collapsed.


ETA: Never mind. Compared to the rest of the disclosures listed above, I have been engaged in purely novice-level stuff.
 
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Nonsense. Today I had a meeting in a trendy cafe in South Melbourne almost next door to a brothel. Property values in thus area have been going through the roof.

Property values out here in Patrick and Fernley, Nevada have risen slowly but surely in the last few years, somehow despite the fact that two of the most famous brothels in the world, Mustang Ranch I and II, are RIGHT NEXT DOOR. Fernley, especially, has grown quite a bit with the addition of Amazon and Walmart distribution centers coming to town. The crime rate hasn't risen significantly, the neighborhoods are nice, and it doesn't seem to bother too many folk that the Mustang Ranches are, again, RIGHT NEXT DOOR.

I went to college with three gals who worked out at the Ranch-all of them were using their income from prostitution to get through college and have better lives. They weren't uncomfortable with being prostitutes, it was an honest living, and they had a choice: a brothel or a street corner. The morality of it was their call to make, not mine or anyone else's.
 
banquetbear
Just wanted to genuinely say thanks for taking the time with me to explain your views. This is not really much of an issue in the US yet, that's definitely too bad. This is a subject where I do not have strong views and am still working with and comparing ideas.

I was raised in a religious bubble a bit like a cult, I like to assert that I am an atheist but also aware there there is a sense I am never completely free. So a tool I use is to try and see the issue from other's point of view, to break things down and try to think differently for just a little while. My strategy on the information I posted was to simply work backward: If I lived in NZ, what issues might I find there? I am sorry of some of those sites have religious links but that does not mean that I advocate their views.

I definitely have some problems understanding how the government there works. It seems much more parental than here. I'm not saying wrong but just a different mindset that influences things very broadly.

The difficulty I have is not so much in legalization, but in thinking of prostitution as a business - I find the ethics of it too hard to overcome. If I owned a business with 2000 people, but every year it included 20 of them to be beaten and abused just a part of doing business - I would abandon the business. So for me to accept these business owners as advocates and spokespeople for women's dignity or equality seems fundamentally flawed. I could understand a view that maybe we should accept this violence as always there and so this is a compromise. I'm not like 'aargh' this is icky.

I am genuinely curious about how NZ does with their laws. No, I could not find any statistics and I suspect the lack of statistics is on purpose.

There are some statistics, but they do with the impact that disassociation causes. To be dismissive about statistics that show prostitution does harm to women's mental health and future success does leave me with nothing much else to say here.

http://sisyphe.org/spip.php?article697

I shall suggest today that the social experiment of legalising brothel prostitution which took place in Australia in the 1980s and 1990s has failed in all of its objectives i.e. stopping the illegal industry and police corruption, reducing the harm to women, stopping street prostitution...
This is a secular site that has statistics. They don't really make a single specific argument that is convincing that prostitution is part of a spectrum of violence, but they have quite a collection. As a male, I'm not sure I could ever completely accept their view - a pattern of thinking I probably can't escape. But I found it interesting reading if there are those like me who are interested in getting a broader view of the opinions.
 
I was injured during sex once... but it was a pretty advanced position, on a trundle bed which collapsed.


ETA: Never mind. Compared to the rest of the disclosures listed above, I have been engaged in purely novice-level stuff.

I wouldn't say novice. It's just a matter of preferences.
 
I'm sure it hurt, but damn that's funny.
:rolleyes: Yeah, bruised shoulder and bloody ear from the chain. We've been more careful since.

.
That too!
Put the sadists away.
Unless they're consenting adults.

I was injured during sex once... but it was a pretty advanced position, on a trundle bed which collapsed.


ETA: Never mind. Compared to the rest of the disclosures listed above, I have been engaged in purely novice-level stuff.
It's woodcarving versus DIY, I think; some of the weird positions can cause problems. I started screaming when we tried one once as I'd pulled a muscle or something in my thigh and it was agony.
 
I admire the way that you're attempting to challenge your own preconceptions Kopji, but I just thought that I'd pick out one part of your problem with this issue:

If I owned a business with 2000 people, but every year it included 20 of them to be beaten and abused just a part of doing business - I would abandon the business. So for me to accept these business owners as advocates and spokespeople for women's dignity or equality seems fundamentally flawed. I could understand a view that maybe we should accept this violence as always there and so this is a compromise. I'm not like 'aargh' this is icky.

It's completely understandable that you'd take this approach, but it would also mean abandoning things like public transport, taxis, policing, ambulance staff (somewhat bizarrely), door staff, security guards, retail staff and gas station attendants.
An American survey found that cab drivers faced a staggering 60 times the normal risk for workplace violence and are in the top 10 vocations for workplace homicides, for example.

I'd suggest that prostitutes are far more at risk of violence when their job's illegal than when it's regulated, but I'm not aware of any actual numbers to back that up.
 
I was injured during sex once... but it was a pretty advanced position, on a trundle bed which collapsed.


ETA: Never mind. Compared to the rest of the disclosures listed above, I have been engaged in purely novice-level stuff.
None of which supports Mudcat's claim of "frighteningly easy to injure each other". All the examples on this thread show that it actually takes a lot of effort to do so.
 
I'm from Germany and prostitution is legal here. Effects:

from 2011:
German chief police reported yesterday sex trafficking is on the rise in the country. The chief officer also said that sex trafficking has increased 11 percent from last year and 70% over five year period.

in 2009, the German brothels began to offer a flat rate sex promotions. As sex industry and prostitution are legalized, the brothel owners are required to pay the prostitutes daily wages regardless of how many customers they offer sexual services. Therefore, the brothel owners offered a deal to the johns that they can sleep with as many prostitutes as they can to attract more customers for cheaper deal. According to the report, the promotion is based on "all you can eat buffet" principle.
http://www.examiner.com/article/ger...-more-exploitation-than-emancipation-to-women

Yup, the flatrate is really a thing. :mad:

New study:
7. CONCLUSION
This paper has investigated the impact of legalized prostitu-
tion on inflows of human trafficking. According to economic
theory, there are two effects of unknown magnitude. The scale
effect of legalizing prostitution leads to an expansion of the
prostitution market and thus an increase in human trafficking,
while the substitution effect reduces demand for trafficked
prostitutes by favoring prostitutes who have legal residence
in a country. Our quantitative empirical analysis for a cross-
section of up to 150 countries shows that the scale effect
dominates the substitution effect. On average, countries with
legalized prostitution experience a larger degree of reported
human trafficking inflows.
http://www.lse.ac.uk/geographyAndEn...elopment-_prostitution_-anonymous-REVISED.pdf


"In Deutschland, wo Prostitution legal ist, ist der Markt 60 Mal größer als in Schweden, wo Prostitution verboten ist. Gleichzeitig hat Deutschland rund 62 Mal so viele Opfer von Menschenhandel wie Schweden, obwohl die Bevölkerung weniger als zehn Mal so groß ist", so Dreher.
"In Germany, where prostitution is legal, the market is 60 times bigger than in Sweden, where prosititution is illegal. Simultaneously Germany has 62 times as many trafficking victims as Sweden, even though the population is less than 10 times as big" Dreher says.
(Dreher is one of the authors of above study.)

Doch bei einer Untersuchung hat die Bundesregierung bereits 2007 festgestellt, dass das Gesetz seine Ziele nicht erreicht hat. Nicht einmal ein Prozent aller Huren hat danach einen Arbeitsvertrag, eine Krankenversicherung als Prostituierte haben die wenigsten.
However during a survey the government concluded already in 2007 that the law didn't reach its goals. Not even one percent of whores have a work contract, the fewest prostitutes have health care.
http://daserste.ndr.de/panorama/aktuell/prostitution131.html


My 2 cents:

I'd like to see prosititution made illegal again, but with the swedish method, where only the "customers" are prosecuted. Also, trafficking victims should get asylum.

I'm against prostitution because of two things:
- legalizing it obviously didn't work
- it violates the intimate zone and is therefore not healthy

Everyone of us has an intimate zone that only loved ones are allowed to enter. If someone violates that zone we react with discomfort and try to get out of that situation. Prostitutes are forced to violate that zone often, that can't be healthy.
Comparing it to no-so-likable jobs doesn't cut it imo, cleaning toilets doesn't violate your intimate zone.

Side note: It also promotes the unhealthy idea that men are owed sex from women. If they don't get any, it's ok to buy a woman. If they don't get what they want at home, it's ok to buy a woman. However, there is no right to sex, you got two hands, there are also toys that can be used alone or with your partner. Using another human being as a mastrubatory device: not cool.
 
Side note: It also promotes the unhealthy idea that men are owed sex from women. If they don't get any, it's ok to buy a woman.

It equally promotes the unhealthy idea that women should not give sex away, but should be paid for it. If they don't get paid, no sex.
 
It equally promotes the unhealthy idea that women should not give sex away, but should be paid for it. If they don't get paid, no sex.

Should a man be allowed to sell his body to an employer for years at a time? Not to mention rent boys.
 
I'm from Germany and prostitution is legal here. Effects:

from 2011:



http://www.examiner.com/article/ger...-more-exploitation-than-emancipation-to-women

Yup, the flatrate is really a thing. :mad:

New study:

http://www.lse.ac.uk/geographyAndEn...elopment-_prostitution_-anonymous-REVISED.pdf



"In Germany, where prostitution is legal, the market is 60 times bigger than in Sweden, where prosititution is illegal. Simultaneously Germany has 62 times as many trafficking victims as Sweden, even though the population is less than 10 times as big" Dreher says.
(Dreher is one of the authors of above study.)


However during a survey the government concluded already in 2007 that the law didn't reach its goals. Not even one percent of whores have a work contract, the fewest prostitutes have health care.
http://daserste.ndr.de/panorama/aktuell/prostitution131.html

...I'm not really prepared to accept articles that repeat long debunked urban legends.

Cite:

http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/brothel.asp

The use of statistics in your cited report also has me scratching my head. It has obviously been put together by economists and not scientists. It admits it doesn't have before and after statistics for Sweden, so they simply decide to compare Sweden with Denmark. Almost all the statistics used are estimates: and the report doesn't go into lengths about the different reporting methods different countries have. (something that has been pointed out before when comparing crime rates between countries.)

Your use of the word "whores" puzzles me. Whore is not a pleasant word. Why would you consider the words "whore" and "prostitute" interchangeable?

My 2 cents:

I'd like to see prosititution made illegal again, but with the swedish method, where only the "customers" are prosecuted. Also, trafficking victims should get asylum.

I'm against prostitution because of two things:
- legalizing it obviously didn't work

What do you mean it "didn't work?" The world is a big place and doesn't just include Germany. And I'm not convinced by your "cites" that legalizing prostitution doesn't work.

- it violates the intimate zone and is therefore not healthy

Everyone of us has an intimate zone that only loved ones are allowed to enter. If someone violates that zone we react with discomfort and try to get out of that situation. Prostitutes are forced to violate that zone often, that can't be healthy.
Comparing it to no-so-likable jobs doesn't cut it imo, cleaning toilets doesn't violate your intimate zone.

This tops property values as the most absurd reason to oppose legalised prostitution. Your "cite" is not a scientific one, and talks about a "subjective" concept of the privacy bubble. Can you cite research that "violations of a subjective privacy bubble is not healthy?" Can you provide scientific details of this "intimate zone?"

Side note: It also promotes the unhealthy idea that men are owed sex from women.

No it doesn't.

If they don't get any, it's ok to buy a woman. If they don't get what they want at home, it's ok to buy a woman.

How many sex-industry customers did you interview before you came to this conclusion?

However, there is no right to sex, you got two hands,

OMIGOSH BUT WHAT IF YOU ARE A DOUBLE AMPUTEE!!!

there are also toys that can be used alone or with your partner.

OMIGOSH BUT WHAT IF YOU DON"T HAVE A PARTNER!!!

Using another human being as a mastrubatory device: not cool.

Not cool is a pretty lame reason to make something illegal. One Direction is not cool. And while making One Direction illegal is tempting: it really isn't something I'd advocate. If someone is perfectly willing to be "someone elses mastrubatory device" in exchange for money: why should you or I care?
 
The 2003 legislation in Germany didn't make prostitution legal anyway, as it was already legal.
 

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