• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Definition of Consciousness

This could just mean that the brain can no longer access the spirit mind, if the brain is damaged in certain ways.
It's an hypothesis that is self-extinguishing; pretty much every detectable function of the mind is known to be altered by various specific forms of brain damage or drug influence. Some surprising functions have been discovered as a result.

If, for example, one assumes that it is the spirit that has the personality, or recognises friends and relatives, or makes moral judgements, it's hard to see how damage to specific parts of the brain can make you unable to recognise faces, or to think that someone you do know and recognise is an imposter, or to change your moral value judgements, or change your personality - yet this does happen. Multiple examples of this kind lead to the conclusion that all the things we recognise as functions of the mind are handled by the brain, leaving no useful function for the spirit.

A further difficulty for the spirit mind hypothesis is what happens when the corpus callosum, the thick bundle of nerve fibres that connects the two halves of the brain, is cut (a last resort for severe epilepsy). The result is two separate brain hemispheres, each with an individual consciousness, that may have differing characters and opinions, both in a single skull. How does surgical division of the brain result in two different spirit minds?

All these observations are entirely consistent with there not being a spirit mind, and inconsistent with there being one.

Even if you could find plausible ways to explain them in terms of a spirit mind, you still have Ockham's Razor to deal with - they don't need a spirit mind, it's unnecessary, superfluous, and redundant.

So, just out of interest, what, in your opinion, does a spirit mind do?
 
It's an hypothesis that is self-extinguishing; pretty much every detectable function of the mind is known to be altered by various specific forms of brain damage or drug influence. Some surprising functions have been discovered as a result.

If, for example, one assumes that it is the spirit that has the personality, or recognises friends and relatives, or makes moral judgements, it's hard to see how damage to specific parts of the brain can make you unable to recognise faces, or to think that someone you do know and recognise is an imposter, or to change your moral value judgements, or change your personality - yet this does happen. Multiple examples of this kind lead to the conclusion that all the things we recognise as functions of the mind are handled by the brain, leaving no useful function for the spirit.

A further difficulty for the spirit mind hypothesis is what happens when the corpus callosum, the thick bundle of nerve fibres that connects the two halves of the brain, is cut (a last resort for severe epilepsy). The result is two separate brain hemispheres, each with an individual consciousness, that may have differing characters and opinions, both in a single skull. How does surgical division of the brain result in two different spirit minds?

All these observations are entirely consistent with there not being a spirit mind, and inconsistent with there being one.

Even if you could find plausible ways to explain them in terms of a spirit mind, you still have Ockham's Razor to deal with - they don't need a spirit mind, it's unnecessary, superfluous, and redundant.

So, just out of interest, what, in your opinion, does a spirit mind do?

I am not sure what a spirit mind does, apart from originate from a higher dimension and be channeled down into the brain through the chakras. But I have had some expereince of the existence of telepathy, and I have also received many evidential messages from the spirit world through mediums.
I spent several years going to spiritualist churches during the 1970s and some mediums knew things about me and my family, that they could not possibly have known by any cold reading methods.

James Randi writes off mediums as not giving specific details and cold reading people, but I have been told facts about my family that I did not even know myself. I was told I had a brother that died in the war as a baby and my mother had never told me that until I got a message from him at a church service. My mother had never been to the church, and she was shocked when I came home and told her about the message.
 
I am not sure what a spirit mind does, apart from originate from a higher dimension and be channeled down into the brain through the chakras.
Who told you this? (there is no evidence whatsoever for any of it).

But I have had some expereince of the existence of telepathy, and I have also received many evidential messages from the spirit world through mediums.
I spent several years going to spiritualist churches during the 1970s and some mediums knew things about me and my family, that they could not possibly have known by any cold reading methods.
Quite a few people on these forums arrived with accounts of similar experiences. Learning about the flaws in human perception and cognition, and how easy it is to deceive yourself and be deceived (not always with bad intentions), most of them have realised that those experiences were not what they thought they were and had more mundane explanations. Some found it hard to let go of what they found comforting or mysterious, but most now realise they were mistaken and, importantly, know exactly why and how they were mistaken, and are happier knowing this.

.. I have been told facts about my family that I did not even know myself. I was told I had a brother that died in the war as a baby and my mother had never told me that until I got a message from him at a church service. My mother had never been to the church, and she was shocked when I came home and told her about the message.
I'm aware of more than one way this could happen without telepathy, or the paranormal, or psi, or the spirit world being involved. I'm sure some more experienced members can suggest more explanations.

If you would like to explore the possible alternative explanations for these hard-to-explain events, we'd be happy to discuss them with you. You'd have to provide a bit more detail about them, and be prepared to consider that you might be mistaken after all.
 
So what about the evidence for the existence of telepathy, which would indicate thought is able to travel outside the brain?

There is none.

Seems to me like your beliefs are based not on evidence but on what you'd want to be true. That sounds like a terrible way to go about determining truth, and I think you should reevaluate that.
 
There is none.

Seems to me like your beliefs are based not on evidence but on what you'd want to be true. That sounds like a terrible way to go about determining truth, and I think you should reevaluate that.

Ok! explain this. I was told by a voice in my head that I would win money on the lottery in 1998. Earlier in the week I was worrying about not having enough money to buy christmas presents, and about not being able to buy a decent computer. At that moment a female voice spoke in my head, and said " help is coming from an unexpected source". That is all it said and I had never heard that voice before.
Then later in the week I was picking the lottery numbers and I felt as if there was a presence with me that was guiding my hand to pick the numbers.
Then came the saturday draws and I picked up the ticket one hour before the draw and thought to myself. Maybe this ticket is worth a fortune, then I though no, and threw it down. At that moment the same female voice in my head said " You won".
The voice had never spoken to me before and has never spoken to me since, but I did get a five number win which was enough money to pay my credit card and buy a good computer.
As far as I am concerned this is subjective personal experience I have had of telepathy from the spirit world, and the odds against it being a hallucination must be astronomical. Because I only ever heard that voice twice in my life and it told me I would win and I did.
The odds against winning are high enough so what are the odds a voice would tell you you won an hour before the draw on the only occasion that you did win?
 
Who told you this? (there is no evidence whatsoever for any of it).


Quite a few people on these forums arrived with accounts of similar experiences. Learning about the flaws in human perception and cognition, and how easy it is to deceive yourself and be deceived (not always with bad intentions), most of them have realised that those experiences were not what they thought they were and had more mundane explanations. Some found it hard to let go of what they found comforting or mysterious, but most now realise they were mistaken and, importantly, know exactly why and how they were mistaken, and are happier knowing this.


I'm aware of more than one way this could happen without telepathy, or the paranormal, or psi, or the spirit world being involved. I'm sure some more experienced members can suggest more explanations.

If you would like to explore the possible alternative explanations for these hard-to-explain events, we'd be happy to discuss them with you. You'd have to provide a bit more detail about them, and be prepared to consider that you might be mistaken after all.

I have not had a lot of fun in life and I am not afraid of loosing it. I do not care if there is nothing after death. But I have had so much evidential experience that it is hard for me to discount it. I see no way that a medium could have known about my brother other than that he was talking to her from the spirit world. She even gave me his name, and as I said my mother never went to the church, and the medium was from out of town and I had never seen her before.
 
Ok! explain this. I was told by a voice in my head that I would win money on the lottery in 1998. Earlier in the week I was worrying about not having enough money to buy christmas presents, and about not being able to buy a decent computer. At that moment a female voice spoke in my head, and said " help is coming from an unexpected source". That is all it said and I had never heard that voice before.
Then later in the week I was picking the lottery numbers and I felt as if there was a presence with me that was guiding my hand to pick the numbers.
Then came the saturday draws and I picked up the ticket one hour before the draw and thought to myself. Maybe this ticket is worth a fortune, then I though no, and threw it down. At that moment the same female voice in my head said " You won".
The voice had never spoken to me before and has never spoken to me since, but I did get a five number win which was enough money to pay my credit card and buy a good computer.

I don't need to explain a story that someone is claiming to be true on the internet. Furthermore even if I accepted as gospel truth the story, I have no way of knowing if you reconstructed the story after the fact, misremember details and fit them to your belief system, etc. In short, you're not giving me anything to go on.

Telepahy is part of the set of things that, if it existed, would have such an easily-detected impact that by now we'd have at least some solid evidence that it exists, even if we didn't understand the mechanism. Guess what ? We have zilch.

As far as I am concerned this is subjective personal experience I have had of telepathy from the spirit world

People make claims like this for every possible supernatural phenomenon. I need more than your say so to believe your story and the claimed phenomenon behind it.

and the odds against it being a hallucination must be astronomical.

No, they're actually quite low.

Because I only ever heard that voice twice in my life and it told me I would win and I did.

How is that evidence against hallucination ?

The odds against winning are high enough so what are the odds a voice would tell you you won an hour before the draw on the only occasion that you did win?

Quite good, actually. I'd say the odds are 1:1, since we're now talking after the fact.

Let me put it this way: thousands of people throughout history have made claims similar in form and content to yours, and not a single one of them has been able to show evidence that their claim is true, ever, in all of human history, despite very earnest and honest attempts to prove that the supernatural exists. That's quite a mountain of evidence against the supernatural.
 
I do not care if there is nothing after death. But I have had so much evidential experience that it is hard for me to discount it.

Two thoughts:

1) If your analysis is incorrect, it doesn't matter how much evidence you think you have. For instance, if I think volcanoes are caused by angry mountain gods, the number of exploding volcanoes is not convincing evidence for the existence of those gods. My entire methodology would be wrong, in that example.

2) The fact that you are so convinced should be a very good reason to doubt it. Belief systems feed themselves, and the more convinced you are, the less likely you are to be objective and rational about that topic.
 
This could just mean that the brain can no longer access the spirit mind, if the brain is damaged in certain ways. As I have said memory cannot just be electrically stored in brain cells, because electric shock treatment would permenantly wipe it. ECT is over one hundred volts, and it is passed through the brain which operates at less than half a volt, so no memory could survive unless there is another mechanism of storage other than electrical.

It could also mean that the brain can no longer access fairies, but then that would beg the question of "do fairies exist ?" just as yours begs the question of "does the soul exist ?" Furthermore, if the brain can "access" the mind, that means there's an interaction between the two. No such interaction is in evidence, therefore your suggestion is nothing but sheer speculation. Until you can show evidence for that suggestion, I'll go with the explanation that works. You asked, I answered.



My point is that regardless of how, we know it's stored in there.

Brains are the thing to focus on in regard to how data is stored in regard to chemistry, which is a fundamental aspect of biological [life] forms.

Living structures able to store memory.

The memory of course is data. It is secondary to the point that memory can be stored, whatever the device. It is not so much what stores it as to what creates it and retrieves it.

Biology breaks down. As a storage device it has its limitations and if the pathways are damaged other pathways have to be built but eventually the gig is up and no retrieving can be done.

Now in terms of an individuate consciousness which experiences life from the perspective of being within human form, what it experiences creates the data which is stored in the brain it has the use of, and it [the individuate consciousness]alone is the only thing which can retrieve said data for itself/use.

The importance of this fact is worth the effort repeating.

In a physical universe it most obviously appears that devices are necessary for data storage, but this observation alone does not compel one conclude that other devices are not attached to that data or to the processes of individuate consciousness (your processes as an individual) that the data of your/my/our experience(s) is/are not able to be stored elsewhere or retrieved as is necessary.

The concept of 'the soul' has this attached to it.


If you trace back to the origin of the idea of the soul you will discover a time when being aware of the connection with that larger aspect of your total self was common place. It is now largely unknown but that does not signify it is a dead thing.

Furthermore the idea of the soul is not that you have one, but that the one has you.
You are its data gatherer.

Now call it what one will, it is able to be connected with and communicated with and through a variety of engaging processes, understood for what it is by its own explanation (as to what it is) independent of what you might otherwise think, have thought, or even that you resist thinking, or have never thought along such lines in relation to the idea of this thing sometimes called 'soul'.

All that is required is in order for it to communicate to you what it is, is your attentive focus and ability to at least meet it halfway in relation to the physical and how data is transferred.
 
Ok! explain this. I was told by a voice in my head that I would win money on the lottery in 1998. Earlier in the week I was worrying about not having enough money to buy christmas presents, and about not being able to buy a decent computer. At that moment a female voice spoke in my head, and said " help is coming from an unexpected source". That is all it said and I had never heard that voice before.
Then later in the week I was picking the lottery numbers and I felt as if there was a presence with me that was guiding my hand to pick the numbers.
Then came the saturday draws and I picked up the ticket one hour before the draw and thought to myself. Maybe this ticket is worth a fortune, then I though no, and threw it down. At that moment the same female voice in my head said " You won".
The voice had never spoken to me before and has never spoken to me since, but I did get a five number win which was enough money to pay my credit card and buy a good computer.
As far as I am concerned this is subjective personal experience I have had of telepathy from the spirit world, and the odds against it being a hallucination must be astronomical. Because I only ever heard that voice twice in my life and it told me I would win and I did.
The odds against winning are high enough so what are the odds a voice would tell you you won an hour before the draw on the only occasion that you did win?

What I am interested in here Scorpion is a few more details because what you have shared so far doesn't contain enough data in which to explain anything. There is just enough data to form hypothesis.

Hearing a female voice in your head is interesting ( i imagine). Are you a male?
Also - "help is coming from an unexpected source" is interesting. It suggests to me that if there is a 'spirit' world, the help given you here would be significant in how it helps that spirit world and if that spirit world wants to help us (individuals) a little to help ourselves without being too helpful (so we do the bulk of the work ourselves that way feeling better in our accomplishments) your use of the money would reflect that.

You paid your debts and got a good computer.

I think you are spot on regarding the odds of that ever have happening, and yet it did.

Of course what you (and all of us) say about ourselves to each other is only hearsay, but I hear you and can identify with your experiences by way of my own similar ones.

Not so much a voice in my head, but 'spirit' prompting nonetheless.

So I have no reason to doubt the validity of your story here.

Any more than I have any reason to accept highhandedly that your experience was no more than 'coincidence' and put my feet up, sip on brandy and be content with that explanation as being the truth of it.

Coincidence does not exist any more than randomness does. Such is a trick of the mind to believe it does.
Therefore it is no explanation at all to claim coincidence.
 
In a physical universe it most obviously appears that devices are necessary for data storage, but this observation alone does not compel one conclude that other devices are not attached to that data or to the processes of individuate consciousness (your processes as an individual) that the data of your/my/our experience(s) is/are not able to be stored elsewhere or retrieved as is necessary.

It also does not compel one to conclude that fairies don't move atoms around.
 
I have not had a lot of fun in life and I am not afraid of loosing it. I do not care if there is nothing after death. But I have had so much evidential experience that it is hard for me to discount it. I see no way that a medium could have known about my brother other than that he was talking to her from the spirit world. She even gave me his name, and as I said my mother never went to the church, and the medium was from out of town and I had never seen her before.
I heard you the first time. The offer still stands.
 
Let me put it this way: thousands of people throughout history have made claims similar in form and content to yours, and not a single one of them has been able to show evidence that their claim is true, ever, in all of human history, despite very earnest and honest attempts to prove that the supernatural exists. That's quite a mountain of evidence against the supernatural.
It's also true that thousands of people have had the kinds of experience Scorpion describes (e.g. a vague prediction or intimation of success followed by a specific instance of success). It's their interpretation of it that's misguided.
 
Coincidence does not exist any more than randomness does. Such is a trick of the mind to believe it does.
Therefore it is no explanation at all to claim coincidence.
The last does not follow from the first. If believing in coincidence is a trick of the mind (which, in the general usage, it is), then claiming coincidence is an explanation of sorts - it is claiming a trick of the mind.
 
Belz, You can say I am just making stuff up, but I know I am not. So assume for a moment I am telling the truth about my lottery win. I said the odds against the voice I heard being a hallucination are astronomical but you discount this. You said:

"I'd say the odds are 1:1, since we're now talking after the fact."

But the odds against winning five numbers are 55,490 to 1 against. I have done the lottery since it started, up until the present day, and at no time except the time I actually won did I hear a voice telling me I had won. So as I say, the odds against that must be off the scale of improbability.
 
Navigator, yes I am male. I do not know what more details I can give about my experience of winning the lottery, as I said about all there is to say about it.
I believe the spirit world helped me when I was down, and they only gave me a five number win because it would be bad karma to give me six numbers as that would take a lot of money away from other people.
I think they did it partially so that I would get a computer to talk about this kind of stuff to people on the Internet, and partly as evidence to me that they were looking out for me.
The fact that I was given the numbers in advance of the lottery also implies that the spirit world can see into the future. I know that idea will not be acceptable to many people on this forum.
 
Let me put it this way: thousands of people throughout history have made claims similar in form and content to yours, and not a single one of them has been able to show evidence that their claim is true, ever, in all of human history, despite very earnest and honest attempts to prove that the supernatural exists. That's quite a mountain of evidence against the supernatural.

Yes, and there is a reason for that. I have been to many trance lectures by mediums and they say we are in a realm of experience that allows us freedom to learn by trial and error. We evolve spiritually by actions causing reactions. It is called karma and it operates through reincarnation over many, many lifetimes. We are not meant to be able to penetrate the higher worlds as a matter of course because it would inhibit us and take away our free will.
If the spirit world exists we all go there anyway, in between incarnations.
There we evaluate the sum of our experience of our last life, and eventually reinarnate for more experience. This process goes on until our cycle of incarnations leads us to a state of grace, or enlightenment. After which we continue to evolve in higher realms as immortal spirits.
Therefore we are not normally given proof of the afterlife for our own sakes.
 
Belz, You can say I am just making stuff up

I may, but that's not what I said.

but I know I am not.

You may know you're not lying, but you can't know if your interpretation of your experience, or indeed even your memory of it, is correct.

I said the odds against the voice I heard being a hallucination are astronomical but you discount this.

I'll say. First of all you have absolutely no clue how likely it is.

But the odds against winning five numbers are 55,490 to 1 against.

And yet people win all the time. I know of far more unlikely things that happen on a daily basis.

I have done the lottery since it started, up until the present day, and at no time except the time I actually won did I hear a voice telling me I had won.

Again, this circles right back to interpretation.

I have been to many trance lectures by mediums and they say we are in a realm of experience that allows us freedom to learn by trial and error. We evolve spiritually by actions causing reactions.

And I say the four fundamental forces of the universe are really fairies moving atoms about. Prove me wrong ! No, really, why would you believe someone who tells you something like this ?

If the spirit world exists we all go there anyway, in between incarnations.

None of that follows. The spirit world could exist but no one goes there or only some people go there, and you are begging the question, again, with reincarnation. None of that is connected.

You speak of your belief as if it was proven fact. I am telling you that this is a mistake, as evidenced by the many people I'm sure you would agree are wrong despite deeply-held beliefs. Something else is required, namely evidence and empirical testing.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom