Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[Garrison]

It's funny how this all started though.

There was going to be a trade agreement between Ukraine and the EU, right?

Russia (Putin) didn't want them to have a trade agreement, so he pressured Yanukovich to veto it.

Here's the article from the OP:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25173719



It's hard to see how stopping such a minor thing as a trade deal was worth everything that happened since. Putin had a friendly, compliant regime in place. Now that regime is gone, replaced by a hostile one in most of the country, and they are on the verge of war.

And that's exactly why this is happening. Consider if Putin had done nothing this past week the media focus would be on the failure of his policy in Ukraine and a major setback to his ambitions to expand Russian influence. Instead he gets to shore up his hard man image while the right laments Western 'hand-wringing' in the face of Russian aggression and the left is high fiving Russia opposing 'fascist imperialism'.

 

[Ziggurat]

you're the one who is completely sidestepping the bigger issue here which is the NATO brand of cold war politics which it continues to use against Russia despite well the end of the Cold War. Let's side step the deliberate encirclement of Russia with hostile governments

You know why Russia is surrounded by hostile governments?

Because they treat their neighbors like ****, that's why.

and the anti-missile defense system that the US wants in place in Eastern Europe, you know, the one that is a real threat to world peace and could actually destroy the balance of forces between these superpowers and make russia vulnerable.

A shield is not the moral equivalent of a sword. No one ever, EVER, need apologize for bearing a shield. If Russia doesn't like other people having shields, she can bloody well pick up one of her own.

Lets forget about the fact that the West has targeted Russian allies for destabilization like Syria

Syria didn't need the west's help to destabilize. And doesn't it tell you something about Russia that Syria is the sort of country that they choose to ally with?

Belarus

Ah yes, Europe's last dictator. It seems you have a higher opinion of the country than even Putin does.

Venezuela

Venezuela is doing a rather exemplary job of destabilizing themselves.

and Ukraine

Other than offer Ukraine access to European markets (boo ******* hoo), the west really hasn't done all that much.

So when russia makes a move to protect its interests invade its neighbors, it is ultranationalist.

Yup, pretty much.

but when the US assistant Secretary of State plans a coup and actually dictate what is going on in Kiev it is nothing but the free world being in solidarity with democratic forces

The stupid thing about this accusation isn't that Kerry and Obama are too moral to do something like that. Rather, the stupidity is believing that either one of them has the balls or the competence to actually pull it off. Our leaders are feckless and weak. I wish they could engineer a coup in Kiev, but they can't. This is pure paranoia on your part.

 

[Garrette]

Accusations of insanity are often merely self-comforting ways of saying, "I don't understand why you're doing what you're doing". In this case, Putin isn't insane, Merkel just has an intellectual blind spot that prevents her from understanding him.

I would say they are often merely self-supporting ways of saying "I have the moral high ground, and those who don't bow before it are evil villains of the highest degree."

At risk of sounding like a Putin apologist, may I recommend Stephen Cohen's piece at The Nation. Can't say I fully agree with him, but I find him closer to objective than most media reports, and I find the characterizations of Cohen based on this article as a Putin apologist to be knee-jerk idiocy indicating a failure to read with nuance.

 

[spin0]

Accusations of insanity are often merely self-comforting ways of saying, "I don't understand why you're doing what you're doing". In this case, Putin isn't insane, Merkel just has an intellectual blind spot that prevents her from understanding him.

I don't think we should read too much into Merkel quote reported as 'not sure he was in touch with reality...“In another world,” she said.'

The quote, if correct, doesn't actually say she thinks Putin is insane. Nor does it say Merkel has intellectual blind spots there. It might just as well mean that Putin has been acting by incorrect information. Which is plausible.

 

[A'isha]

At risk of sounding like a Putin apologist, may I recommend Stephen Cohen's piece at The Nation. Can't say I fully agree with him, but I find him closer to objective than most media reports, and I find the characterizations of Cohen based on this article as a Putin apologist to be knee-jerk idiocy indicating a failure to read with nuance.

That is a terrible article, basically blaming Yeltsin for all of Russia's current problems and deliberately ignoring the fact that Putin has been ruling as an autocrat for the last fourteen years, destroying and jailing any opposition and systematically looting the country along with his cronies and sycophants. It even claims that Putin, "however authoritarian, in reality lacks such [autocratic] power"!

The writer's mocking of Timothy Snyder for "without any verified evidence...warn[ing] of a Putin-backed 'armed intervention' in Ukraine after the Olympics" is particularly laughable in the light of what's happened during the past weekk.

 

[Garrette]

That is a terrible article, basically blaming Yeltsin for all of Russia's current problems and deliberately ignoring the fact that Putin has been ruling as an autocrat for the last fourteen years, destroying and jailing any opposition and systematically looting the country along with his cronies and sycophants. It even claims that Putin, "however authoritarian, in reality lacks such [autocratic] power"!

The writer's mocking of Timothy Snyder for "without any verified evidence...warn[ing] of a Putin-backed 'armed intervention' in Ukraine after the Olympics" is particularly laughable in the light of what's happened during the past weekk.

Can't agree with the overall dismissal. The point being that Putin's reactions cannot be categorized as those of an evil villain caricature.

 

[angrysoba]

I was just watching Japanese news and was surprised when they featured a clip of Russia Today. It's actually a clip from the TV show that Childlike Empress links to in her signature called Breaking the Set, and, even more surprisingly, the anchor of the show - Abby Martin - announces her opposition to Russia's military invasion of Crimea in unequivocal terms.

Worth watching:

 

[gabeygoat]

As usual, The Onion nails it
http://www.theonion.com/articles/ukrainianrussian-tensions-dividing-us-citizens-alo,35428/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1efault

 

[A'isha]

Can't agree with the overall dismissal. The point being that Putin's reactions cannot be categorized as those of an evil villain caricature.

Except that none of the things cited in the article are "an evil villain caricature".

EDIT: If anything, it goes way overboard in whitewashing Putin, even criticizing Obama for not being grateful to Putin after "Putin virtually saved Obama’s presidency by persuading Syrian President Bashar al-Assad to eliminate his chemical weapons"! Sheesh...

 

[angrysoba]

Interesting conversation/debate between my good professor and an ex-CIA guy:

 

[timhau]

You know who is ing furious about the crisis in Ukraine?

Kim Jong Un, that's who. Think how frustrating it must be when you blow 20% of your GNP in a missile test, and you don't even make it to the front page at BBC.

 

[Childlike Empress]

I was just watching Japanese news and was surprised when they featured a clip of Russia Today. It's actually a clip from the TV show that Childlike Empress links to in her signature called Breaking the Set, and, even more surprisingly, the anchor of the show - Abby Martin - announces her opposition to Russia's military invasion of Crimea in unequivocal terms.

Worth watching:

Always worth watching.

Too funny, she has her own top "news" article at SPIEGEL as well, being "Putin's stroppy moderator".

Stuff the news agencies hand down to their trustworthy repeaters and want us to believe is newsworthy. Wonder if they will report that she's perfectly entitled to voice her opinion on that - not the first time, and certainly not the last.

 

[Travis]

It's funny how this all started though.

There was going to be a trade agreement between Ukraine and the EU, right?

Russia (Putin) didn't want them to have a trade agreement, so he pressured Yanukovich to veto it.

Here's the article from the OP:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25173719



It's hard to see how stopping such a minor thing as a trade deal was worth everything that happened since. Putin had a friendly, compliant regime in place. Now that regime is gone, replaced by a hostile one in most of the country, and they are on the verge of war.

Putin is clearly not a rational actor. He has gone clear over the moon which makes him scary. He'll take Russia down with him as he tries to make his delusions reality.

Remember when you fight crazy people you always need to bring much more firepower than normal because they fight in ways you can't predict.

I think that "mad dictator" is simply a lazy and silly slur. Generally I would think that most people in power are sane if only because you need to have your wits about you to stay where you are. Putin is someone who has managed to stay in power in a place where you have to be pretty sharp to get there in the first place.

Putin has been completely isolated from all dissenting opinion for a long time now. This almost always leads to a leader becoming unhinged. The "mad dictator" isn't a lazy slur it is a pragmatic description of what almost always happens in these situations.

It isn't just nation states that suffer from this. When a corporation has a leader that is surrounded by sycophants that company almost always starts behaving very irrationally and eventually implodes.

 

[Rat]

It isn't just nation states that suffer from this. When a corporation has a leader that is surrounded by sycophants that company almost always starts behaving very irrationally and eventually implodes.

Which is why Apple no longer exist.

 

[Klimax]

Which is why Apple no longer exist.

I didn't know Jobs still there...

==
Anyway, reportedly Abby Martin gets sent to Crimea. (Czech news server)

 

[McHrozni]

I beg to differ. It sounds cartoonish, particularly the idea he wants to be stuffed and placed next to Lenin. Of course, it is obviously made up.

That one was the most outrageous, but I doubt it was much over the top, if any. The rest are entirely valid.

I don't see how he had Ukraine "in his grip". And I certainly hope it doesn't come to war. The difficulty is going to be in getting Putin out of Crimea, and I really don't know how that will happen. I also think your earlier characterizing of how the UNSC works is false too, although I admit to not knowing exactly how the procedure will work there.

UNSC procedure prevents nations from voting in some matters that concern them. Not all of them, though.

Uhmmm... I think you said that "I don't believe Ukraine will develop nuclear weapons as a response to the crisis. Threatning to do so should be enough to get Obama et.al. interested in doing something substanial to end the crisis."

I don't see the problem with that. Ukraine talking about developing nuclear weapons in response to US, UK and Russia cheating them of their legal arsenal has major implications for Iran. Namely that any security guarantees will be null and void when convenient.

I disagree with that. I don't think Ukraine will make friends by threatening to develop nuclear weapons. And, as I have already said, and as you already agree, the threat cannot be taken seriously so it would be a silly thing to do. In fact, seeing as you invoke Iran, if Ukraine did make such threats wouldn't Obama have to give Ukraine a bit of a slap to stop Iran getting ideas of extorting the US with nuclear weapons?

Ukraine has been invaded by a nation in posession of the second largest nuclear arsenal in the world. There isn't a clearer example of a legitemate need for nuclear weapons. Furthermore, Ukraine gave up it's arsenal in exchange of security guarantees, and one of the signatories was the invader, the other two didn't stop it. It's debatable whether this would win them friends, but they currently sorely lack actual friends anyway. That's assuming the diplomacy in the background is as limited as it looks, which may not be the case. Putin has claimed he has no intention of annexing Crimea, which might have been a result of some quiet threats.

McHrozni

 

[Giz]

That is a terrible article, basically blaming Yeltsin for all of Russia's current problems and deliberately ignoring the fact that Putin has been ruling as an autocrat for the last fourteen years, destroying and jailing any opposition and systematically looting the country along with his cronies and sycophants. It even claims that Putin, "however authoritarian, in reality lacks such [autocratic] power"!

But.. but the article said "or even with granting amnesty, in December, to more than 1,000 jailed prisoners, including mothers of young children."! (What do you mean, he shouldn't have locked them up in the first place?! Man, some repressive autocrats just can't catch a break)

 

[Giz]

Can't agree with the overall dismissal. The point being that Putin's reactions cannot be categorized as those of an evil villain caricature.

Problem is, what are Putin's motivations?

Is he trying to recover the old Soviet sphere of influence for Mother Russia? (i.e. He thinks Russia will benefit from this?)

Or is his main motivation simply preserving his grip on power. If so, then did he feel a need to burnish his strongman credentials? Was the possible accession of the Ukraine into the EU fold going to be a foreign policy humiliation? Does he even have a retirement plan (i.e. a way to step down without being likely to be arrested/proscribed within a few years)?

He has ridden the tiger* of nationalism in order to gain and consolidate power. Can he now pull back or dismount without being eaten? And if he thinks not, do not expect his actions to be rational from the perspective of Russia's national interest (they will however, be rational from the perspective of a man who doubts his ability to survive a humiliating climbdown).


* perhaps a bear in this case.

 

[dudalb]

That is a terrible article, basically blaming Yeltsin for all of Russia's current problems and deliberately ignoring the fact that Putin has been ruling as an autocrat for the last fourteen years, destroying and jailing any opposition and systematically looting the country along with his cronies and sycophants. It even claims that Putin, "however authoritarian, in reality lacks such [autocratic] power"!

The writer's mocking of Timothy Snyder for "without any verified evidence...warn[ing] of a Putin-backed 'armed intervention' in Ukraine after the Olympics" is particularly laughable in the light of what's happened during the past weekk.

Stephan Cohen is well known as a Putin apologist,and often comes off like "Russia Today" using more intellectual language. He was making the talk show circuit yesterday, putting all the blame on "The West" and handwaving away the idea that the peoples of the Ukraine and Georgia should determine their own destinies.
That Putin is becoming a hero to the hard left just confirms my low opinion of the Hard left. No better,in the end, then the hard right.

 

[dudalb]

Which is why Apple no longer exist.

Apple recovered, but came damn close to bankruptcy in the early 90's,before a recovery began. A great many companies that are headed by megalomaniac who only listens to "Yes Men" do not survive.

Only fair to say that Jobs changed his ways in time. The Jobs story is pretty much one of redemption.Jobs was frank to admit that he spent a good deal of the second half of his life making amends for his behavior and all the mistakes he made in the first half.