Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[Darth Rotor]

So now Putin's gonna steamroll into Turkey? Greece? Or maybe all the newly acquired former Warsaw Pact EU countries? Let's get real. Russia isn't getting past the 12 non-Baltic Republics of the Former Soviet Union. To do so would instantly risk war with NATO. Warfare beyond the 12 republics is not a realistic option by any measure. Mere fear mongering is what your post largely consists of.

You did the fear mongering, as those are your words, not mine. All that stuff in red ... yours.

Suggest you not try to put words in someone else's mouth.

As I said, in person, we could have a good conversation.

People fail to realize that Putin is simply picking up where Gorbachev left off.

That is kind of like saying that Obama is simply picking up where W left off. Not true when one looks at the detail.

Putin has a wide variety of choices and options on how to react to a variety of issues. Gorbachev hasn't been on his speed dial lately, has he?

 

[trustbutverify]

^ Indeed. And coup d'état fits better on how the new Crimean PM was installed.

On the money.

 

[Darth Rotor]

A very good read. Didn't know the western anti-imperialists were that far detached from reality

I was aware of that at about age 11, circa 1970, in West Berlin, while I was looking at that Wall. Their brand of soap still has the same number of bubbles as it did then.

 

[angrysoba]

A very good read. Didn't know the western anti-imperialists were that far detached from reality until I read Ms Lindsey German's list. Sobering reading experience indeed.

I was aware of that at about age 11, circa 1970, in West Berlin, while I was looking at that Wall. Their brand of soap still has the same number of bubbles as it did then.

They've been around even longer than that, as Orwell noted:

The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to the taking of life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration of totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defence of western countries. The Russians, unlike the British, are not blamed for defending themselves by warlike means, and indeed all pacifist propaganda of this type avoids mention of Russia or China.

 

[trustbutverify]

Incredible that was written in 1945.

 

[angrysoba]

Incredible that was written in 1945.

Plus ça change...

 

[marplots]

Incredible that was written in 1945.

That was in 1945? You ought to see what he wrote in 1984.

 

[trustbutverify]

Why don't you take better look: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9874125&postcount=841

I must be missing something, because I can't find you making an assertion about German street protests.

 

[trustbutverify]

That was in 1945? You ought to see what he wrote in 1984.

Oh man.

 

[McHrozni]

It should not baffle you at all. Putin has repeatedly stated that the end of the USSR was a catastrophe.

The USSR invaded the sovereign nation of poland at the beginning ot WWII. At the end, it absorbed those components of the Russian Empire that had enjoyed independence between the two World Wars. That was what, three, four, five nations? I am not sure.

USSR invaded five nations between September 1939 and June 1941 - Poland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and Finland. By the end of the war it annexed three of them, and gobbled down sizable chunks of two. USSR was the only Nazi ally who ended up owning more land after the war (arguably: one of two, if you count Croatia; the argument there goes both ways).

It also invaded several nations between 1919 and 1939, annexing most of them. Poland retained independence even after the war, it's an exception to the rule.

McHrozni

 

[uke2se]

It also had this interesting link, which has been going around, but if you haven't seen it before: http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.com/2014/02/pro-russian-network-behind-anti.html

That's an interesting piece. We've discussed the various types of extreme-right conspiracy theories on the Globalresearch website before, and this would definitely seem to be right in line with that.

 

[McHrozni]

There is one area of agreement between us. Why Russia thought it necessary to invade a sovereign country baffles me.

You act as if it were a new thing. The last time Russia invaded a sovereign country was less than six years ago. It looks to be the new norm. I certainly hope NATO will extend membership to Georgia as a result. Putin will go insane.

McHrozni

 

[spin0]

IMHO we have just seen the start of "Cold War 2".

Well, that sucks, if true. Cold War 2 will be won by China, and nobody else.

Looks like Putin has felt the need to claim moral support from big brother: Russia And China 'In Agreement' Over Ukraine
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov discussed Ukraine by telephone with his Chinese counterpart, Wang Yi, on Monday, and claimed they had "broadly coinciding points of view" on the situation there, according to a ministry statement.

Well, that sounds not vague at all.

China's position as stated earlier: http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/eng/xwfw/s2510/t1133558.shtml

China is deeply concerned about the current situation in Ukraine. We condemn the recent extreme and violent acts there and have been urging the relevant parties in Ukraine to resolve their internal disputes peacefully within the legal framework so as to safeguard the lawful rights and interests of all ethnic communities in Ukraine and restore normal social order at an early date.

It is China's long-standing position not to interfere in others' internal affairs. We respect the independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine. There are reasons for why the situation in Ukraine is what it is today. China will follow the development of the situation closely and call on relevant parties to seek a political resolution of their differences through dialogue and negotiation based on respect for international law and norms governing international relations in order to uphold regional peace and stability.

Haven't seen insightful analyses on China regarding the events in Ukraine (Anyone?). This one from December has its points but not much in depth: Without China, Can Russia Make Ukraine Happen?

This incident also illustrates limits on Sino-Russia coordination: China isn’t going to risk its relationship with Europe to help finance Putin’s neo-imperial project. While Russia and China are both interested in reducing US power, the two largest land powers in the world are jealous of one another and China in particular gets so many benefits from participation in the global trading system that Russia can’t count on it for support.

 

[TheRealnz]

Talking about ultranationalism, as I've seen that word thrown around quite a lot by some posters:
Russian nationalist politician Vladimir Zhirinovsky flew to Crimea and addressed cheering crowds in Sevastopol, promising them financial and psychological support against the new government in Kiev.


Now there's an ultranationalist for you, plus racist and anti-semite who has had problems denying his own Jewish ancestry. And he is not a rag-tag ad-hoc protester but a party leader sitting in the freaking Russian parliament. Since 90s he has made speeches demanding Russian invasion and annexation of neighbouring countries including... pretty much all of them. In 2010 he boasted that Eastern Ukraine would become part of Russia “in five years".

Needless to say he is a persona non grata in many countries - including Ukraine, but there he is making speeches.

You missed the point, the fact that a Russian Nationalist hardliner is able to speak in front of a cheering Crimean crowd speaks alot about the sentiments of people in crimea. Meanwhile, the illegitimate Ukrainian government has lost all credibility and is no longer welcome there. Besides, Zhirinovsky is nothing more than a clown in Russian politics. He is a pariah used to bark at the West. On the other hand, the participation of neo-nazis in the illegitimate Ukrainian coup is very significant and alarming. We are not dealing with a transitional government in which Neo-Nazi elements integrate the fringe of the coalition, they make up a third of it.

The Cabinet is not only integrated by the Svoboda and Right Sector (not to mention former members of defunct fascist UNA-UNSO), the two main Neo-Nazi entities have been entrusted with key positions which grant them de facto control over the Armed Forces, Police and National Security.

While Yatsenuyk’s Fatherland Party controls the majority of portfolios and Svoboda Neo-Nazi leader Oleh Tyahnybok was not granted a major cabinet post (apparently at the request of assistant Secretary of State Nuland), members of Svoboda and the Right Sector occupy key positions in the areas of Defense, Law Enforcement, Education and Economic Affairs. No wonder, armed troops of Ukraine are switching allegiance to Putin

 

[McHrozni]

China's position as stated earlier: http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/eng/xwfw/s2510/t1133558.shtml

This is basically a word salad. Can you tell what Chinese position on the issue of Russian aggression is from it? I most certainly can't.
You bolded a few parts which can go one way or another. They respect Ukrainian territorial integrity, but all this means is they don't oppose Ukraine staying as it is and they don't lend active support in tearing it apart ... but nothing else.

McHrozni

 

[spin0]

You missed the point, ...

Yeah, by all means, let's completely sidestep the Russian militant nationalism and empire building with military invasion of sovereign country and installing ultranationalist puppets there in an attempt to rip an independend country apart for annexation, and just keep on exaggerating with the "Neo-Nazi elements" propaganda angle, shall we.

 

[McHrozni]

You missed the point, the fact that a Russian Nationalist hardliner is able to speak in front of a cheering Crimean crowd speaks alot about the sentiments of people in crimea.

Well, it shows there are enough Russian supporters in Crimea to form a "crowd". Not much else though.

McHrozni

 

[Childlike Empress]

You missed the point, the fact that a Russian Nationalist hardliner is able to speak in front of a cheering Crimean crowd speaks alot about the sentiments of people in crimea. Meanwhile, the illegitimate Ukrainian government has lost all credibility and is no longer welcome there. Besides, Zhirinovsky is nothing more than a clown in Russian politics. He is a pariah used to bark at the West. On the other hand, the participation of neo-nazis in the illegitimate Ukrainian coup is very significant and alarming. We are not dealing with a transitional government in which Neo-Nazi elements integrate the fringe of the coalition, they make up a third of it.

The Cabinet is not only integrated by the Svoboda and Right Sector (not to mention former members of defunct fascist UNA-UNSO), the two main Neo-Nazi entities have been entrusted with key positions which grant them de facto control over the Armed Forces, Police and National Security.

While Yatsenuyk’s Fatherland Party controls the majority of portfolios and Svoboda Neo-Nazi leader Oleh Tyahnybok was not granted a major cabinet post (apparently at the request of assistant Secretary of State Nuland), members of Svoboda and the Right Sector occupy key positions in the areas of Defense, Law Enforcement, Education and Economic Affairs. No wonder, armed troops of Ukraine are switching allegiance to Putin

Exactly. Here's a look at those people. Most worrying as you mentioned certainly the Right Sector guys Andriy Parubiy and Dimitri Jarosch as head and deputy of the Security and National Defense Committee. Nazi thugs "supervising" the army.

 

[angrysoba]

You missed the point, the fact that a Russian Nationalist hardliner is able to speak in front of a cheering Crimean crowd speaks alot about the sentiments of people in crimea. Meanwhile, the illegitimate Ukrainian government has lost all credibility and is no longer welcome there. Besides, Zhirinovsky is nothing more than a clown in Russian politics. He is a pariah used to bark at the West. On the other hand, the participation of neo-nazis in the illegitimate Ukrainian coup is very significant and alarming. We are not dealing with a transitional government in which Neo-Nazi elements integrate the fringe of the coalition, they make up a third of it.

The Cabinet is not only integrated by the Svoboda and Right Sector (not to mention former members of defunct fascist UNA-UNSO), the two main Neo-Nazi entities have been entrusted with key positions which grant them de facto control over the Armed Forces, Police and National Security.

While Yatsenuyk’s Fatherland Party controls the majority of portfolios and Svoboda Neo-Nazi leader Oleh Tyahnybok was not granted a major cabinet post (apparently at the request of assistant Secretary of State Nuland), members of Svoboda and the Right Sector occupy key positions in the areas of Defense, Law Enforcement, Education and Economic Affairs. No wonder, armed troops of Ukraine are switching allegiance to Putin

According to this Wikipedia article, a Svboda party member has indeed been given the Defence portfolio, although in parentheses he is said to be "acting", whatever that means.

However, many of those listed here have no party named beside them, being referred to as "non-partisan". I would have thought that law enforcement and the police would have been run by the department of internal affairs.

Also, the minister for education is said to have belonged to some right-wing groups but it is not clear that he is a neo-Nazi from this article.

 

[TheRealnz]

Yeah, by all means, let's completely sidestep the Russian militant nationalism and empire building with military invasion of sovereign country and installing ultranationalist puppets there in an attempt to rip an independend country apart for annexation, and just keep on exaggerating with the "Neo-Nazi elements" propaganda angle, shall we.

It would be nice if you addressed everything in the post prior.