Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[L.Y.S.]

Firstly, word "overwhelming" does not appear in my post so you're misquoting me. Secondly, it should be perfectly clear that I was referring to the protesters themselves, not German leadership. Thirdly, your request is completely irrelevant to anything I wrote.

In other words most Germans don't give a crap and you can't prove that they do give a crap. Got it.

 

[L.Y.S.]

A very good read. Didn't know the western anti-imperialists were that far detached from reality until I read Ms Lindsey German's list. Sobering reading experience indeed.

Because all anti-imperialists are clearly this loony without pragmatic concerns.

 

[spin0]

Because all anti-imperialists are clearly this loony without pragmatic concerns.

Not all I'm sure. But yeah she does sound loony. Incidentally she uses quite similar talking points as you have used.

As I already said in this previous post luckily not all are acting like useful idiots, as in their protesting against nationalism driven invasion they're acting like anti-imperialists instead, but you brushed their objection to authoritarian regime's military invasion of sovereign country off as them having "an axe to grind".

 

[spin0]

In other words most Germans don't give a crap and you can't prove that they do give a crap. Got it.

No, you didn't.

 

[spin0]

G-7 leaders suspend participation in Sochi G-8 summit.

G-7 Leaders Statement

We, the leaders of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States and the President of the European Council and President of the European Commission, join together today to condemn the Russian Federation’s clear violation of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine, in contravention of Russia’s obligations under the UN Charter and its 1997 basing agreement with Ukraine.
...
We are united in supporting Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity, and its right to choose its own future. We commit ourselves to support Ukraine in its efforts to restore unity, stability, and political and economic health to the country.

 

[L.Y.S.]

No, you didn't.

Wrong answer, try again. I didn't make the assertion about the protest in Germany. You did.

 

[angrysoba]

A very good read. Didn't know the western anti-imperialists were that far detached from reality until I read Ms Lindsey German's list. Sobering reading experience indeed.

Unfortunately it really is not surprising at all.

The best part of that Economist blog is the link to a petition signed by actual experts on Ukraine's far-right, including my own good little professor, in which they warn about inadvertantly peddling the propaganda line of the Kremlin:

we call upon commentators, especially those on the political left, to be careful when voicing justified criticism of radical Ukrainian ethnonationalism. The more alarmist statements on the EuroMaidan are likely to be used by the Kremlin’s “political technologists” for the implementation of Putin’s geopolitical projects. By providing rhetorical ammunition for Moscow’s battle against Ukrainian independence, such alarmism unintentionally helps a political force which is a far more serious threat to social justice, minority rights and political equality than all Ukrainian ethnocentrists taken together.

https://www.change.org/en-GB/petiti...t-extremist-mass-action-of-civic-disobedience

 

[L.Y.S.]

Not all I'm sure. But yeah she does sound loony. Incidentally she uses quite similar talking points as you have used.

Such as?

 

[Caustic Logic]

You do know this forum isn't the entire internet, right?

That ... that must be what I goofed up. Got my notice today. Laid off.

 

[Caustic Logic]

The west recognizes a regime born in coup. They've reached their hand into the jar one way or another.

Oooh, did you say coup? Yanukovtch said that, and the media added scare quotes when he did.

I'm not sure if coup is the right word, or putsch. But they both get the spirit of it, the latter I think doing so a bit better.

 

[angrysoba]

Oooh, did you say coup? Yanukovtch said that, and the media added scare quotes when he did.

I'm not sure if coup is the right word, or putsch. But they both get the spirit of it, the latter I think doing so a bit better.

Whether you are for or against the actions made by Ukrainians with respect to their political system, there is no justification for Putin deploying troops in the Crimea.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Whether you are for or against the actions made by Ukrainians with respect to their political system, there is no justification for Putin deploying troops in the Crimea.

There is one area of agreement between us. Why Russia thought it necessary to invade a sovereign country baffles me. I do generally support Ukraine siding with Russia, but doing it in this forceful fashion put quite the sour taste in my mouth.

 

[spin0]

Wrong answer, try again. I didn't make the assertion about the protest in Germany. You did.

Why don't you take better look: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9874125&postcount=841

 

[Caustic Logic]

There is one area of agreement between us. Why Russia thought it necessary to invade a sovereign country baffles me. I do generally support Ukraine siding with Russia, but doing it in this forceful fashion put quite the sour taste in my mouth.

I mentioned the flavor of the times earlier. I don't deny it's sour, and the invasion is unfortunate. However I'm more supportive/ambiguous/less condemnatory than either of you. Not coincidentally, I've also looked the closest at the point where that sour taste first entered the picture (in an acute way) with the Putsch in Kiev.

 

[spin0]

The best part of that Economist blog is the link to a petition signed by actual experts on Ukraine's far-right, including my own good little professor, in which they warn about inadvertantly peddling the propaganda line of the Kremlin:

https://www.change.org/en-GB/petiti...t-extremist-mass-action-of-civic-disobedience

Yes, that was a very good assessment. Also in line with some other expert analyses I've red on the subject and with results of the opinion polls conducted on the Maidans.

It also had this interesting link, which has been going around, but if you haven't seen it before: http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.com/2014/02/pro-russian-network-behind-anti.html

 

[angrysoba]

There is one area of agreement between us. Why Russia thought it necessary to invade a sovereign country baffles me. I do generally support Ukraine siding with Russia, but doing it in this forceful fashion put quite the sour taste in my mouth.

I'm sorry that Putin let you down. We could have warned you about that. In fact, we did. Nevermind.

 

[trustbutverify]

A coup d'état (/ˌkuːdeɪˈtɑː/; French: blow of state; plural: coups d'état), also known as a coup, a putsch, or an overthrow, is the sudden deposition of a government,[1][2][3][4] usually by a small group of the existing state establishment—typically the military—to depose the extant government and replace it with another body, civil or military.

Rebellion, uprising, or insurrection is a refusal of obedience or order.[1] It may, therefore, be seen as encompassing a range of behaviors aimed at destroying or taking over the position of an established authority such as a government, governor, president, political leader, financial institution, or person in charge.

A revolution (from the Latin revolutio, "a turn around") is a fundamental change in power or organizational structures that takes place in a relatively short period of time

Rebellion or revolution seems more accurate in this case.

 

[spin0]

^ Indeed. And coup d'état fits better on how the new Crimean PM was installed.

 

[crescent]

There is one area of agreement between us. Why Russia thought it necessary to invade a sovereign country baffles me. I do generally support Ukraine siding with Russia, but doing it in this forceful fashion put quite the sour taste in my mouth.

It should not baffle you at all. Putin has repeatedly stated that the end of the USSR was a catastrophe.

The USSR invaded the sovereign nation of poland at the beginning ot WWII. At the end, it absorbed those components of the Russian Empire that had enjoyed independence between the two World Wars. That was what, three, four, five nations? I am not sure.

Russia used force to crush pro-democracy protests in Berlin in 1953. Three years later there were marches in Budapest to commemorate the Berlin marches. The marchers did want to leave the Warsaw Pact, they did not want to end communism - but the Russians invaded anyway - they invaded a member of the Warsaw pact that was not even talking about leaving the pact.

Three years later, the Berlin Wall went up. Four years after that, Prague Spring earned the Czechs a a Soviet invasion as well.

You know all of this, even if you did not live it.

Putin thinks those were the good old days, he wants to bring them back - that's not a conspiracy theory, he is quite open about it. He did it in Georgia, he is doing it again right now.

He will do what he can - he will retake parts of the Baltics, if he can. Anywhere there are a lot of ethnic Russians are fair game. They don't need to be a full majority, as he can split of the parts with the most Russians and expel non-Russians from those areas.

This is not at all surprising; it is history repeating itself.

 

[trustbutverify]

Yes, that was a very good assessment. Also in line with some other expert analyses I've red on the subject and with results of the opinion polls conducted on the Maidans.

It also had this interesting link, which has been going around, but if you haven't seen it before: http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.com/2014/02/pro-russian-network-behind-anti.html

Thanks. He really nailed it.

There has been a huge tide of false, incorrect and bloated reports that exaggerate or over-emphasize the significance of the far right in the current Euromaidan protests in Ukraine. A Moscow-based journalist Alec Luhn writes in The Nation about "the Ukrainian nationalism at the heart of ‘Euromaidan’", a leftist Seumas Milne argues in The Guardian that "in Ukraine, fascists, oligarchs and western expansion are at the heart of the crisis", while a self-styled "independent geopolitical analyst" Eric Draitser, in his nauseatingly misleading piece for his own Stop Imperialism (later re-published by The Centre for Research on Globalization), even goes so far as to claim that "the violence on the streets of Ukraine [...] is the latest example of the rise of the most insidious form of fascism that Europe has seen since the fall of the Third Reich"

Those "independent geopolitical analysts" are a real growth industry.