"Ukraine" or "The Ukraine"?

Mark6 said:
This particular story might be made up, but I met two people who had almost exactly same experience. One was a Russian Jew who, along with his family, got lost in Riga (during Soviet times). Every person they tried to ask for directions would shake his head "no understand". Until the grandmother addressed someone in Yiddish, and this person responded -- in perfect Russian, -- "Sorry, I do not speak Jewish, but perhaps you understand Russian?" They all understood Russian, but refused to speak it until they knew the person is not actually the hated oppressor.

The other story came from an American man who traveled with his wife to Ireland. Again, nobody would understand their English until he said in frustration: "Nobody here speaks American!" At which point the shop owner said "You are Americans? Here, have some US flag pins -- you will have much easier time around here!"
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Linguistic warfare -- happens in many places, with varying degrees of intensity. Takes place here in Great Britain, at a fairly low level. Many people in Wales, especially in the north thereof, speak -- as well as English -- their own Welsh language, and treasure it. They tend to consciously use it in the presence of English visitors, to exclude them and sometimes speak of them in a non-complimentary way. To a lesser extent, likewise in the areas of the north-west of Scotland where Scottish Gaelic precariously hangs on as a birth-speech.

I, monoglot English, applaud this: consider being potentially badmouthed in my uncomprehending presence by speakers of the minority tongues, a small price to pay for those languages continuing, against the odds, to survive and prosper -- long may they do so.
 
fleabeetle said:
Linguistic warfare -- happens in many places, with varying degrees of intensity. Takes place here in Great Britain, at a fairly low level. Many people in Wales, especially in the north thereof, speak -- as well as English -- their own Welsh language, and treasure it. They tend to consciously use it in the presence of English visitors, to exclude them and sometimes speak of them in a non-complimentary way. To a lesser extent, likewise in the areas of the north-west of Scotland where Scottish Gaelic precariously hangs on as a birth-speech.

I, monoglot English, applaud this: consider being potentially badmouthed in my uncomprehending presence by speakers of the minority tongues, a small price to pay for those languages continuing, against the odds, to survive and prosper -- long may they do so.
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My father, who was an RAF pilot, was Welsh by birth and upbringing (West Wales), and spoke fluent Welsh - though never as a first language. His spoken English was pretty neutral though, with only the very slightest hint of a Welsh accent.

One of his last flying postings was at RAF Valley in Anglesey (which, to those who don't know, is an Island in North-West Wales, and a true hotbed of Welsh Nationalism). There was a good deal of nationalistic hostility to the presence of the "English" air force, and a consequent amount of resentment of RAF personnel and their families. As you point out, this often manifested itself in people insulting RAF-related people in Welsh in shops etc. And I remember as if it were yesterday the time it happened when my father, my sister and I were in a branch of a UK-wide chain of shops. One of the store assistants muttered an insult in Welsh to his co-worker, and my father casually turned round and told them in Welsh that he understood exactly what they had just said, and that he was going to inform the company's head office of their behaviour and attitude. They almost-literally fell over themselves to apologise and beg for leniency :D (He never had any real intention of reporting them, and never did).
 
It appears the OP question is being resolved: we may soon be able to just call the region Southwestern Russia.
:(
 
It depends on the final outcome. We might be able to call it (or them) 'the Ukraines', which would solve the whole problem.
 
RSLancastr said:
The Belgian Congo is not pluralized.

This evening I spoke with a woman who lived in Argentina for many years, and whose husband is from Argentina, and I asked her about "Argentina" vs. "The Argentine". She speaks Spanish fluently, and said that in Argentina, the proper name for the country is "La Argentina" (The Argentine), and that is how "The Argentine" came to be used in English-speaking countries.
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Nor does it exist anymore.
 
Mark6 said:
The other story came from an American man who traveled with his wife to Ireland. Again, nobody would understand their English until he said in frustration: "Nobody here speaks American!" At which point the shop owner said "You are Americans? Here, have some US flag pins -- you will have much easier time around here!"
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That seems a little unlikely. I would be surprised if there were many Irish who could not recognize an American accent. And are you sure the shop owner had a collection of US flag pins to hand out to passing American tourists?
 
LondonJohn said:
My father, who was an RAF pilot, was Welsh by birth and upbringing (West Wales), and spoke fluent Welsh - though never as a first language. His spoken English was pretty neutral though, with only the very slightest hint of a Welsh accent.

One of his last flying postings was at RAF Valley in Anglesey (which, to those who don't know, is an Island in North-West Wales, and a true hotbed of Welsh Nationalism). There was a good deal of nationalistic hostility to the presence of the "English" air force, and a consequent amount of resentment of RAF personnel and their families. As you point out, this often manifested itself in people insulting RAF-related people in Welsh in shops etc. And I remember as if it were yesterday the time it happened when my father, my sister and I were in a branch of a UK-wide chain of shops. One of the store assistants muttered an insult in Welsh to his co-worker, and my father casually turned round and told them in Welsh that he understood exactly what they had just said, and that he was going to inform the company's head office of their behaviour and attitude. They almost-literally fell over themselves to apologise and beg for leniency :D (He never had any real intention of reporting them, and never did).
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Ah -- the way in which this manifestation of nationalism, risks occasionally backfiring...

On the subject of Anglesey; two or three decades ago, relatives of mine spent several holidays there, over the years, on a farm where income was supplemented by accommodating holidaymakers. The farmer and his wife were middle-aged, with Welsh their first and preferred language. They were nice folk, thoroughly friendly and pleasant to their English customers. The husband's command of English was perfect; his wife, though, had never been outside Anglesey, and her English was distinctly "wobbly".
 
angrysoba said:
That seems a little unlikely. I would be surprised if there were many Irish who could not recognize an American accent. And are you sure the shop owner had a collection of US flag pins to hand out to passing American tourists?
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I was not there -- I can only tell what they guy told me. He was my NCO in the Air Force.
 
fleabeetle said:
Ah -- the way in which this manifestation of nationalism, risks occasionally backfiring...

On the subject of Anglesey; two or three decades ago, relatives of mine spent several holidays there, over the years, on a farm where income was supplemented by accommodating holidaymakers. The farmer and his wife were middle-aged, with Welsh their first and preferred language. They were nice folk, thoroughly friendly and pleasant to their English customers. The husband's command of English was perfect; his wife, though, had never been outside Anglesey, and her English was distinctly "wobbly".
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Many (well more than 50%) of the local population around RAF Valley were very kind, courteous and friendly to RAF-related people. I would put that down to a combination of those people's innate good natures, plus perhaps an additional contributory factor related to the huge amount of additional wealth the RAF station was bringing to the local area.

Most Anglesey inhabitants spoke very good English by the time we were there some 25 years ago: television/movies and the influx of national brands etc had seen to that. Personally, I've always found the North Wales accent (when speaking English) to be guttural and rather ugly, in comparison to the West Wales accent which is lyrical, soft and lilting (although I may be biased a little!). And the only real Welsh I speak is the words to "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau" (the Welsh national anthem), which I belt out with the best of them at Welsh rugby matches (sometimes prompting some bemusement if it's England vs Wales at Twickenham and I'm with some people who don't realise I have Welsh heritage.....).
 
Rat said:
It depends on the final outcome. We might be able to call it (or them) 'the Ukraines', which would solve the whole problem.
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Since there is only one, adding "the" might be redundant in any case. If a bit of Ukraine were to end up back in Russia, I don't think we would see an "East Ukraine" / "West Ukraine" convention, as the eastern portion might just be called "Crimea" for simplicity. From the point of view in Moscow, it must be a real PITA for their Black Sea fleet to be home ported in other than the homeland.

Interesting bit on the etymology, krajinain Slavic languages, DalladDad. :) Appreciate the E in JREF there.

If you go back to the civil war in Yugoslavia, 1990's, the Krajina Serbs got ethnically cleansed/moved out of an area of Bosnia when pushed out by Bosnian Croats and Croation forces supported by some US funded contractors/consultants/retired officers. It was indeed a borderland, and a lot of folks headed east before it was all over.

FWIW, back in the days when Risk was a board game, the territory didn't have "the" attached to "Ukraine" when being invaded from east or west. Whomever made that game seems to have understood that subtle distinction.
 
Darth Rotor said:
Since there is only one, adding "the" might be redundant in any case. If a bit of Ukraine were to end up back in Russia, I don't think we would see an "East Ukraine" / "West Ukraine" convention, as the eastern portion might just be called "Crimea" for simplicity. From the point of view in Moscow, it must be a real PITA for their Black Sea fleet to be home ported in other than the homeland.

Interesting bit on the etymology, krajinain Slavic languages, DalladDad. :) Appreciate the E in JREF there.

If you go back to the civil war in Yugoslavia, 1990's, the Krajina Serbs got ethnically cleansed/moved out of an area of Bosnia when pushed out by Bosnian Croats and Croation forces supported by some US funded contractors/consultants/retired officers. It was indeed a borderland, and a lot of folks headed east before it was all over.

FWIW, back in the days when Risk was a board game, the territory didn't have "the" attached to "Ukraine" when being invaded from east or west. Whomever made that game seems to have understood that subtle distinction.
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Crimea is not in Eastern Ukraine. It is in Southern Ukraine. It's an anomaly in demographic terms simply because of its strategic importance to Russia (as you say, it's home to the Russian Navy's Black Sea fleet, and Russia was unwilling to move its fleet, infrastructure and personnel over to "new-Russia" ports on the Black Sea when Ukraine gained independence).

So in fact there are two separate fracture points here: the first is specifically regarding Crimea. The second is the "East-vs-West" Ukraine situation. The East of the country (roughly on a split along the line of the Dnipro River) has a majority of ethic Russians, Russian is the most commonly-spoken colloquial language, and Russian culture and practices are the norm. In the West, there is a far more nationalist Ukrainian majority, Ukrainian is the spoken language, and there is a general antipathy (at best) towards Russia.

Personally, I think the likely outcome of all this sabre-rattling is as follows: Russia will seize Crimea - perhaps with a land bridge Eastwards to Russia. And Russia will also demand that the ethnic Russians in the East of Ukraine be allowed to exercise self-determination - either as a self-governing region or for that part Ukraine to be reabsorbed into Russia. I don't think there is any chance whatsoever of Russia reabsorbing the whole of Ukraine.
 
commandlinegamer said:
The council is pretty anachronistic now. Ditch the veto and expand the permanent members.
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The veto is the main value of the council. Get rid of that and you might as well not have the council at all. For sure expanding the permanent members won't mean much without it.

Why would you want to expand the permanent membership anyway?
 
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