Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Diocletus]

I think the questioning at pg 171 is a better indicator on this (human translation)

So, just to summarize, this guy is telling Commode that she's full of crap?

 

[anglolawyer]

Perhaps they never got a search warrant. Patrick knows his rights. Once they make him a suspect he has a right to a lawyer and the police cannot search his bar without going before a judge with the evidence they have which is a little girl told them. They had the palm print on the pillow that didn't match. They had shoe prints that probably didn't match. Add a defense lawyer in the hearing and the prosecution would be torn to shreads and coughed out of court like a hair ball. The law allow them to hold Patrick as a suspect without further judicial review but they cannot move forward. The get the one cell phone that is on his person at the time of arrest but they don't even get to fry his computer.

Raffaele's flat was searched without a warrant because Raffaele invited them in. Technically this was an illegal search since Raffaele at the time was required to have legal representation. But in Raffaele's case at least they had evidence they could take before a judge: they had his shoe prints in blood in the murder room, they had a bloody footprint on the bath mat that they claimed was compatible and they had his pocket knife which matched the characteristics of what the police had told the press the day before was the probable murder weapon.

This I highly doubt. If they had the evidence to justify preventive detention they certainly had the evidence for the much lesser intrusion of a search.

 

[RoseMontague]

So, just to summarize, this guy is telling Commode that she's full of crap?

Yes. Very unlikely the call at 10:13 connected at the cottage. Very likely it was already where they were found the next day.

 

[Diocletus]

This I highly doubt. If they had the evidence to justify preventive detention they certainly had the evidence for the much lesser intrusion of a search.

Perhaps. But the point is that maybe applying for a search warrant would have brought a Lawyer into play, and that seems to be what they wanted to avoid at all costs.

 

[anglolawyer]

Perhaps. But the point is that maybe applying for a search warrant would have brought a Lawyer into play, and that seems to be what they wanted to avoid at all costs.

That would be odd. Search warrants are mostly sought without notice. Why would this trigger the involvement of a lawyer? Also, both Patrick (with or without a lawyer) and the cops should have wanted the content of his SMS to be verified. Matteini was disbelieving because of the discrepancy in their versions. It's a no brainer, isn't it, that the SIM/spare phone would surface.

IOW I have an explanation for the cops' lack of interest (they already knew what the message said). I can't see why this isn't a strong forensic point, if it holds up under scrutiny of the transcripts.

 

[anglolawyer]

Yes. Very unlikely the call at 10:13 connected at the cottage. Very likely it was already where they were found the next day.

So death at 11.30 is looking less and less likely. No problem, we can move the scream around as we please and just have Toto not looking up from his paper at ten instead of later.

 

[Kestrel]

Yes. Very unlikely the call at 10:13 connected at the cottage. Very likely it was already where they were found the next day.

10:13 pm is about when the police arrived at the villa to investigate the bomb threat. Seeing the police coming right after the phone got an incoming message may have reminded Rudy that the phones were a direct link between him and a murder victim.

It's possible that knife that actually killed Meredith was tossed at the same time. Did the Perugia investigators do a proper search of that garden?

 

[Dan O.]

Here is another question: If they had wiretapped Knox, Sollecito and Lumumba early on, then why does the arrest warrant only mention Knox's phone records in making the case for the "phone silence" on the night of the murder. You don't suppose that Lumumba's phone records, and maybe even Raf's, show some activity within the "phone silence" window as stated in the arrest warrant?

I was just rereading the other day the testimony of the person that analized the phone records. The statement was that Amanda and Patrick stopped activity on their phones at the same time and Raffaele's phone stopped at near the same time. The prosecutor tried to shift the focus by restating it as Amanda and Raffaele turning off their phones at the same time to which the response was "not so much" and repeating that it was Amanda and Patrick.

 

[Desert Fox]

I was just rereading the other day the testimony of the person that analized the phone records. The statement was that Amanda and Patrick stopped activity on their phones at the same time and Raffaele's phone stopped at near the same time. The prosecutor tried to shift the focus by restating it as Amanda and Raffaele turning off their phones at the same time to which the response was "not so much" and repeating that it was Amanda and Patrick.

Curious, I work nights a lot so I have to sleep during the day. As a result, I turn my phone onto vibrate. I believe I did that even in 2007. Is it common practice to shut ones phone off to avoid calls?

In no way is this an argument for guilt though, just wondering if I missed something?

 

[RoseMontague]

Curious, I work nights a lot so I have to sleep during the day. As a result, I turn my phone onto vibrate. I believe I did that even in 2007. Is it common practice to shut ones phone off to avoid calls?

In no way is this an argument for guilt though, just wondering if I missed something?

Just the boyfriend in bed.

 

[Diocletus]

That would be odd. Search warrants are mostly sought without notice. Why would this trigger the involvement of a lawyer? Also, both Patrick (with or without a lawyer) and the cops should have wanted the content of his SMS to be verified. Matteini was disbelieving because of the discrepancy in their versions. It's a no brainer, isn't it, that the SIM/spare phone would surface.

IOW I have an explanation for the cops' lack of interest (they already knew what the message said). I can't see why this isn't a strong forensic point, if it holds up under scrutiny of the transcripts.

They seem to have a rule against ex parte searches once a suspect has been identified (remember the bra clasp). So, they had a choice: either get them lawyers and then do the searches, or wait. They waited.

Lumumba's lawyer was either successful at defeating the search warrant, or they had lost interest in lumumba by the time they could have gotten in to search his place (say by nov 12/13).

They really, really did not want these folks to have lawyers any earlier than they had to.

 

[Diocletus]

I was just rereading the other day the testimony of the person that analized the phone records. The statement was that Amanda and Patrick stopped activity on their phones at the same time and Raffaele's phone stopped at near the same time. The prosecutor tried to shift the focus by restating it as Amanda and Raffaele turning off their phones at the same time to which the response was "not so much" and repeating that it was Amanda and Patrick.

Interesting. The Knox-lumumba alignment wouldn't have done much good at trial, but could have been very interesting to them early on.

 

[Desert Fox]

Amanda Knox narrates the events of Nov 2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGHWMS8xnIU - part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFRqiO2Qd0c - part 2

Listening to part 2 with her being sexually harassed by the assistant warden and the emotions.
I have trouble believing that she would ever think about raping another woman especially a friend.

 

[Bill Williams]

Listening to part 2 with her being sexually harassed by the assistant warden and the emotions.
I have trouble believing that she would ever think about raping another woman especially a friend.

And strangely, NO ONE finds it hard to believe that Rudy is capable of this.

This is what Judge Massei said about Rudy already convicted for this heinous crime, even in wrongly convicting RS and AK in 2009....

It is not possible, however, to know if Rudy went to Meredith’s room on his own initiative, almost subjugated by the situation which he interpreted in erotic terms (the two young lovers in their room and Meredith who was on her own in the room right next to it) or, instead, he went to Meredith’s room at the urging of Amanda and/or Raffaele.

This Court is inclined towards the first hypothesis.
It cannot see, in fact, the motive for such an invitation on the part of Amanda Knox and/or of Raffaele Sollecito. Besides, Rudy does not seem to have needed to be encouraged to make advances toward Meredith. Abukar Barrow [who was] interrogated on 11 December 2007 (and whose testimony was acquired with the consensus of the parties) testified that Rudy, above all when he was drunk or under the effects of drugs, ‚bothered people, especially young women. He blocked them off physically and tried to kiss them‛.
Nevertheless, it should also be considered, and this seems to be the most probable hypothesis, that Rudy decided on his own to enter Meredith’s room...

 

[Grinder]

There is one question I would to ask and that is how much of an issue was made of the behavior of Amanda and Raffaele and when did the prosecution start making an issue out of behaviour. In a previous post I mentioned that I found it odd the prosecution never made an issue of the behaviour of Amanda and Raffaele during the interrogations. Did the prosecution make an issue out of behaviour in any of the preliminary hearings before the first trial and how much of an issue was made out of behaviour in the first trial.

The interrogations were ruled to be unusable in the murder trial, therefore their behavior during them couldn't be made an issue, if that's what you were asking as it isn't clear to me.

Behavior was made an issue throughout the trial in the press and in the courtroom.

 

[Desert Fox]

And strangely, NO ONE finds it hard to believe that Rudy is capable of this.

This is what Judge Massei said about Rudy already convicted for this heinous crime, even in wrongly convicting RS and AK in 2009....

I keep being struck by what he quoted. . . .By his own motivations report, you can just eliminate Amanda and Raffaele and the story is pretty much the same.

Somebody needs to sit down Italian judges in general and explain parsimony to them.

By itself though, the interview does not eliminate her as the murderer. If there was physical evidence of Amanda was all over the murder scene and she had injuries, I would consider it most likely that she was involved in the murder.

Got a question for our DNA statisticians here. Let us assume that the DNA on the knife was not planted and assume that it did not get there from the lab. Ignore the fact that the knife shape does not fit as well.

There is a small possibility that Amanda either carried a few cells of Meredeth on herself or that Amanda wore some of Meredeth's clothing. At the tiny threshold of the sample, can that said to be that unlikely?

 

[Grinder]

Curious, I work nights a lot so I have to sleep during the day. As a result, I turn my phone onto vibrate. I believe I did that even in 2007. Is it common practice to shut ones phone off to avoid calls?

In no way is this an argument for guilt though, just wondering if I missed something?

Well if one doesn't want any intrusion or saving battery, yes one does shut it all the way off. If I dare to bring the phone in the bedroom, I turn it off not to bother the others. Although the dog is pretty mellow about it.

 

[Desert Fox]

Well if one doesn't want any intrusion or saving battery, yes one does shut it all the way off. If I dare to bring the phone in the bedroom, I turn it off not to bother the others. Although the dog is pretty mellow about it.

I do know that sometimes I will sleep very lightly and the vibration has sometimes woken me up.

Just making sure though that shutting a phone off is not really atypical which it does not seem to be. I might even be atypical for putting my phone on vibrate instead of off.

 

[Grinder]

I do know that sometimes I will sleep very lightly and the vibration has sometimes woken me up.

Just making sure though that shutting a phone off is not really atypical which it does not seem to be. I might even be atypical for putting my phone on vibrate instead of off.

I think you are parsing this too much. Sometimes people put phones on vibrate. Sometimes they turn them off. Sometimes they leave them in another room. Some phones (I'm sure we'll get a lecture on how Italian phones are different ) don't ring when on a charger.

 

[NancyS]

I do know that sometimes I will sleep very lightly and the vibration has sometimes woken me up.

Just making sure though that shutting a phone off is not really atypical which it does not seem to be. I might even be atypical for putting my phone on vibrate instead of off.

I always used to switch my phone off if I didn't want to be contacted but didn't want people to think I was deliberately ignoring them, even though I was