Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[L.Y.S.]

So, you are pooh-poohing the idea that they are Russian troops and instead making up a different scenario in which the Russian government has delivered large amounts of weaponry and hi-tec kit.

How was it delivered? Air-dropped in by stork to the nearest farm house, perhaps?

The naval base is located directly in the city. You mean to tell me that they simply couldn't just give the weapons to some locals and tell them to do "x"?

 

[Childlike Empress]

Don't care if they are or not. Russia has invaded ukraine. Pray to whatever gods you believe in that the western powers are more reasonable than Putin. Otherwise it will be nuclear nuclear armageddon very shortly.

Aren't you the guy who failed to see a problem with Crimea announcing to hold a referendum less than two days ago? Go duck and cover.

 

[Childlike Empress]

So, you are pooh-poohing the idea that they are Russian troops and instead making up a different scenario in which the Russian government has delivered large amounts of weaponry and hi-tec kit.

How was it delivered? Air-dropped in by stork to the nearest farm house, perhaps?

The "idea"? That's actually the right word as the information the mighty Wurlitzer is spreading comes from the putschists (hence my post above). They likely don't have the loyality of a majority of the forces (police and military), need a lot of billions NOW and are blowing smoke. When it settles we'll see how much Russia invaded Ukraine. Leave it to the cold warriors to throw a hissy. As thing are looking to develop, Russia doesn't have to invade anything, it'll just fall to them.

 

[annnnoid]

The "idea"? That's actually the right word as the information the mighty Wurlitzer is spreading comes from the putschists (hence my post above). They likely don't have the loyality of a majority of the forces (police and military), need a lot of billions NOW and are blowing smoke. When it settles we'll see how much Russia invaded Ukraine. Leave it to the cold warriors to throw a hissy. As thing are looking to develop, Russia doesn't have to invade anything, it'll just fall to them.

What is the likelihood that the powers-that-be in Ukraine (if there are / is such a quantity) would cut the Crimea loose as an economic / political bargaining chip with Russia? Give it to Russia in exchange for…oil / credits / stay-the-hell-out-of-our-politics etc. etc.

 

[Childlike Empress]

What is the likelihood that the powers-that-be in Ukraine (if there are / is such a quantity) would cut the Crimea loose as an economic / political bargaining chip with Russia? Give it to Russia in exchange for…oil / credits / stay-the-hell-out-of-our-politics etc. etc.

There's nothing wrong with the status quo of Crimea to Russia. The latest 25-years contracts for their marine base are just three years old. I'm not sure if they even want anything to fall to them, not for the hassle.

 

[shawmutt]

In Soviet Russia, Russia invades you!

 

[spin0]

Great catch there. Seen this one added by Petri days ago? Could fit:

"Ukraine: Snipers target police in Independence Square"...with an air gun.

It's strange that in all its reporting Putin Russia Today has consistently failed to identify%2

 

[spin0]

Wake me up when he's distributing cookies on Wall Street.

I think waking you up is mission impossible, so count me out.

 

[spin0]

All right, I was talking about a narrower point - I thought you were refuting the presence of Nazi gangs following the events of the 20th. If you're not refuting that, then we have no disagreement. In general, there are some Nazis involved, and also plenty of other non-Nazis. Vast majorit, non-Nazi. It's the remainder, and those with an agenda, that are terrorizing Ukraine's Jews at this moment, that I'm talking about. Any opinion on that?

I think a Jew participating in the Euromaidan self-defence militia has much more insightful opinions to provide, you know by being actually present witnessing the events and all: Israeli militia commander fights to protect Kiev

But Delta says the Kremlin is using the anti-Semitism card falsely to delegitimize the Ukrainian revolution, which is distancing Ukraine from Russia’s sphere of influence.

“It’s ********. I never saw any expression of anti-Semitism during the protests, and the claims to the contrary were part of the reason I joined the movement. We’re trying to show that Jews care,” he said.

BTW, as Jewish opinions are for some reason apparently valid only after Feb 20 this particular article was published yesterday Feb 28.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Daily Beast says:
Russia's "Blackwater" seized the Crimea airports

and also the Ukrainian neo-Nazis are joining forces with their fellows in Sweden (among other places, to be sure)

Spin0, good add. Weird story. Was this "blue helmets" group just improvised? This guy and some other Ukrainian Jew former IDF guys were there protesting and just suddenly turned semi-militant, side-by-side with some aimless kids? Or is it some hired security force of the government's that defected during events? It's called a "unit" here:

The “Blue Helmets” nickname, a reference to the UN peacekeeping force, stuck after Delta’s unit last month prevented a mob from torching a building occupied by Ukrainian police, he said. “There were dozens of officers inside, surrounded by 1,200 demonstrators who wanted to burn them alive,” he recalled. “We intervened and negotiated their safe passage.”

He helped hold the alleged Nazis back long enough to avoid them torching the state's security forces, and/or stealing their weapons. Huh.

Anyway, confusion aside, I consider this guy credible enough, and he says:

“It’s ********. I never saw any expression of anti-Semitism during the protests, and the claims to the contrary were part of the reason I joined the movement. We’re trying to show that Jews care,” he said.

If you go back to my post #621 you'll see that I noticed the same thing, the near total lack of display of Nazi imagery this time, and it's one of my very clues that the Nazi contingent was there, larger and better-planned than usual, and also party to agreements that stipulate things like "don't brandish your images during this thing..." That's so Spin0 et al. can be able to deny there was any Nazi involvement this time, for some odd reason, especially in the "vanguard" that descended on parliament (next post)

 

[spin0]

I'm doubting these are actually Russian troops. I suspect that these are Russo-Ukrainians that have been provided equipment by the Russian government who took these buildings. I think the Russians are smarter than to directly involve themselves. I could always be wrong though.

Uhm... except that Russia has admitted that it's their troops, their APC's, their helicopters, their planes etc. You know, why deny the obvious when there's no plausible deniability left and everyone can see it - well, apparently almost everyone.

inb4: "but.. but.. but... I can't see how Russia would be breaking any agreements with invading military forces..."

 

[L.Y.S.]

Uhm... except that Russia has admitted that it's their troops, their APC's, their helicopters, their planes etc. You know, why deny the obvious when there's no plausible deniability left and everyone can see it - well, apparently almost everyone.

Evidence?

ETA: They look like private strongmen to me.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Why was the vanguard pushing so intently down Instytutska? It seems they established a frontline at the metro station, between the hotel (insurgent-held) and the seat of Ukraine's government - about 100 meters from the edge of that still-guarded but generally evacuated compound. As far as I've seen proven, this is as far as this group went, although someone was torching places on the other side - either a seperate frontline, or these guys after breaking clear through.

The exact time frame of this front-line establlishment isn't clear yet - it seems to have been ready by early afternoon at the latest. Likely, by about 1:30 pm local. And here's maybe part of why:

Maidan Translators

11:36 (GMT it seems - 1:36 Kiev)

Turchynov speaking from stage: We must have iron self-discipline to win. We must create our victory, not more problems. There’s a chance to call a parliament session at 3 pm. MPs will be given guarantees by Maidan. All of Ukraine is currently advancing.


Oleg Lyashko confirms that the MPs will have a guarantee that the Parliament would not be stormed during the session.

They wanted all their friends, and enemies, in the parliament to assemble now. The mob would hold position nearby, insist on no cops be in between, or prepare to overrun them too. But they promised not to break their own SELF-discipline - they would accept no other kind, and maybe not even that, hence the reminder to avoid "problems" they made sure they remained capable of causing. I don't think this exact session, or any full session since then was called.

Implications? Alternate readings?*

 

[spin0]

Daily Beast says:
and also the Ukrainian neo-Nazis are joining forces with their fellows in Sweden (among other places, to be sure)

'Revolts attract weirdos, news at eleven.'

Doesn't mean the Euromaidan was or is a nazi rally, nor that Ukraine would be on the road of becoming a nazi state.

You can also play the game of 'Spot the international Nazi' in many large scale demonstrations around Europe, for example in the recent demonstrations against gay marriage in France which attracted various radical folks from different extreme marginals. Despite being prominently picked up in the images of news agencies their presence doesn't mean it was a nazi rally nor a sudden impulse of antisemitism. They're marginal.

Spin0, good add. Weird story. Was this "blue helmets" group just improvised? This guy and some other Ukrainian Jew former IDF guys were there protesting and just suddenly turned semi-militant, side-by-side with some aimless kids? Or is it some hired security force of the government's that defected during events? It's called a "unit" here:

What's with you? Haven't you been following the Euromaidan at all during the last three months? And only now have started playing the game of 'Spot the Nazi' with your armchair investigation by google?

He helped hold the alleged Nazis back long enough to avoid them torching the state's security forces, and/or stealing their weapons. Huh.

What 'alleged Nazis'? Are you claiming that the protesters around the Ukrainian House in the night of Jan 25th were nazis?

I watched the events live. The police had been shooting at people with live ammo wounding and killing, wounded protesters had been kidnapped from hospitals and later found tortured and dead in the woods, the police had attacked first aid units and medical stuff beating them and even kidnapping and abandoning alone in the woods in the freezing night, many kidnapped people were missing, and the police had been shooting people from the roof of that building. To say that people were *********** angry would be an understatement.

And still after six hours of having the building surrounded the protesters formed a corridor for police to evacuate the building on their own volition with their weapons and peacefully.

Yeah, but they were 'alleged Nazis', amirite.

If you go back to my post #whichever (need to memorize that) you'll note that I noticed the same thing, the near total lack of display of Nazi imagery this time, and it's one of my very clues that the Nazi contingent was there, larger and better-planned than usual, and also party to agreements that stipulate things like "don't brandish your images during this thing..."

Or perhaps "use clandestine operations to brandish the others": Ukraine: Security services 'infiltrated protest groups'

And haven't you heard about the Red Sector at all?

That's so Spin0 et al. can be able to deny there was any Nazi involvement this time, for some odd reason, especially in the "vanguard" that descended on parliament (next post)

And now you're accusing me of something I've never done. Why do that?

 

[Caustic Logic]

"Ukraine: Snipers target police in Independence Square"...with an air gun.

It's strange that in all its reporting Putin Russia Today has consistently failed to identify%2

What did they misidentify here? Did they say it was anything more than an air gun? This is not an incriminating scene, or they wouldn't let RT film it.

What you can see in this video is how the hotel was insurgent operated, and they used its vantage point, for targeting, with air guns. There could also be other guns in other rooms, and people claim yes, snipers with deadly guns were up there shooting down at protesters. Government ones, of course.

Recall the BBC video with the green-helmeted sniper up in the hotel, my version with enhancements to clarify we get to see nothing and trust the reporter's memory, or distrust it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er2aAvs180g

There was an acting security force in place. Apparently this report, and the window the reporter specified to his hard-hat wearing escort/minder, spurred a later search for a sniper, not an air-gun enthusiast. A later tweet from a Sky News reporter says

Our room at hotel Ukraine was just checked by armed protesters, they were looking for a sniper.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...aina-hotel-the-makeshift-hospital-and-morgue/

Wonder if they ever caught the guy?

The protesters reported a sniper captured at 1:15 PM (see Translators piece), amongst these entries in the BBC's timeline (adjusted from GMT to local time, +2 hours)

12:51: Kateryna Kruk, The Guardian tweets: "Snipers are shooting from from Hotel Ukraina and Instytutsjka, more dead around"

1:04: "A sniper is operating near Hotel Ukraine. Be careful! Already dozens of wounded and, tragically, 3 dead. Please bring ambulances as close to Hotel Ukraine as possible, to bring out the wounded."

1:31: The lobby of the Ukraina hotel - overlooking Independence Square - has been turned into an impromptu morgue, AP reports, with the bodies of seven dead protesters laying side by side under white sheets on the marble floor in front of the reception desk.

12:22 = 2:22: Erin Alexis tweets: Situation in #Ukraine horrifying. Reports of #doctors being shot by snipers as they care for the wounded. Terrible.

1:21: One of the three top opposition leaders in Ukraine - Arseniy Yatsenyuk - says snipers are firing at protesters from the Ukraina hotel, which dominates Independence Square.

Huh, same time frame as the above stuff, with the insurgent front line established right in sniper range from the hotel as well, but untouched.

Just in case 3-D reality matters to anyone, these details are coming together none too convenient for the insurgent narrative, nor for Ukraine's future and kind of everyone's. I know this is a sticking it to Putin moment, but can it be cut a little short? A little bit of serious attention here might be in order.

 

[Caustic Logic]

And now you're accusing me of something I've never done. Why do that?

Ask yourself why you're accusing me of accusing you of anything. I said, the purpose of no Nazi imagery display would be so that you et al - meaning all "normal" people who trust the news, etc. - "can be able to deny there was any Nazi involvement this time."

The ability was created, it is there. The blue helmet took it. You're saying you didn't? You don't deny Nazi involvement? Seems like you were, but I didn't directly accuse you of that ... what? sin? Lots of folks are denying that. Why is it an "accusation" at all?

Please clarify your view here.

I will accuse you of being flippant, and (not abnormally) unwilling to slow down and stop jumping to every convenient conclusion that you think lets you off the hook - when the hook is just a laboriously-crafted (to a degree, w/typos) running, multi-part plea to just THINK a little bit!

You and most others here, nothing personal. Seems like all you guys care about is sticking it to Putin at any expense, with expenses denied and ignored. You're like a bunch of Iranian in the 1980s, I imagine, harping on about Ronald Reagan this and Ronald Reagan that. But anyway...

 

[spin0]

Evidence?

My god, Russia confirming it has been all over the news since yesterday. The newly installed Russian PM in Crimea has also confirmed it. And so has the Ukrainian gov.

ETA: They look like private strongmen to me.

Those guys had no identifying insignia, had latest Russian military gear including the new "Barmitsa" uniform, weaponry and gear including night vision equipment, they looked and acted like professional soldiers, were driving Russian APCs, and flew Russian military helicopters. But yeah, they were probably just some local private strongmen.

 

[Hubert Cumberdale]

Too disciplined and too fast for civilians.

Only imperial stormtroopers are so precise....

 

[spin0]

Please clarify your view here.

Please do provide the evidence for your accusation ITT or withdraw it.

I will accuse you of being flippant, and (not abnormally) unwilling to slow down and stop jumping to every convenient conclusion that you think lets you off the hook - when the hook is just a repeated and laboriously-crafted pleas to just THINK a little bit!

I do, thank you for your concern. I just don't apply caustic version of logic in the process.

You and most others here, nothing personal. Seems like all you guys care about is sticking it to Putin at any expense, with expenses denied and ignored. You're like a bunch of Iranian in the 1980s, I imagine, harping on about Ronald Reagan this and Ronald Reagan that. But anyway...

Oh, do we have a mindreader here.

 

[Caustic Logic]

My god, Russia confirming it has been all over the news since yesterday. The newly installed Russian PM in Crimea has also confirmed it. And so has the Ukrainian gov.

"the Ukrainian gov." is not the most trustworthy source at the moment. Otherwise, if all that's true that they've all admitted that, well, then they did, and they would know. I cannot closely follow all threads of this *************, so I'll just trust you here (at whatever risk). Russian-supported rejection of the new and poorly-understood "Ukrainian gov."

I suppose we should now counter-invade the Crimea and hand it back to "the Ukrainian gov." in Kiev.