Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[L.Y.S.]

Russia won't go beyond Crimea without being "provoked".

 

[spin0]

Talking about ultranationalism, as I've seen that word thrown around quite a lot by some posters:
Russian nationalist politician Vladimir Zhirinovsky flew to Crimea and addressed cheering crowds in Sevastopol, promising them financial and psychological support against the new government in Kiev.
Russian 'invasion' of Crimea fuels fear of Ukraine conflict

Now there's an ultranationalist for you, plus racist and anti-semite who has had problems denying his own Jewish ancestry. And he is not a rag-tag ad-hoc protester but a party leader sitting in the freaking Russian parliament. Since 90s he has made speeches demanding Russian invasion and annexation of neighbouring countries including... pretty much all of them. In 2010 he boasted that Eastern Ukraine would become part of Russia “in five years".

Needless to say he is a persona non grata in many countries - including Ukraine, but there he is making speeches.

 

[Ziggurat]

Russia won't go beyond Crimea without being "provoked".

The question then is whether or not Russia wants to be provoked. Because if they do, I'm sure they can make sure they get provoked.

 

[spin0]

Russia won't go beyond Crimea without being "provoked".

Russia shouldn't "go" into Crimea at all and stay in their military base instead if it's stability they're aiming for. They're breaching their assurances to the independend Ukraine, their actions can be seen as an act of war, and their actions may easily escalate into an armed conflict - a war or civil war. And it seems Russia's intention is exactly to further destabilize the situation.

 

[L.Y.S.]

The question then is whether or not Russia wants to be provoked. Because if they do, I'm sure they can make sure they get provoked.

It's only a theory. Russia will most likely not move its troops anywhere. Such a move would send a terrible message to all of its new customs union partners and candidates. As much as Russia wants to invade Ukraine, it won't.

Russia shouldn't "go" into Crimea at all and stay in their military base instead if it's stability they're aiming for. They're breaching their assurances to the independend Ukraine, their actions can be seen as an act of war, and their actions may easily escalate into an armed conflict - a war or civil war. And it seems Russia's intention is exactly to further destabilize the situation.

Actually we're in agreement for once. The destabilization of eastern Ukraine and the rise of pro-Russian armed bandits would work greatly in Russia's favor. It would almost be akin to a Syria 2.0.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Didn't know this thread had a new limit of posting things only after Feb 20. Oh, but it doesn't! I think you protest too much when stating that things earlier than Feb 20 are somehow not relevant. I say they are indeed relevant to the thread including my post.

Your method will unfortunately produce myopic results and misses the most relevant sources - the Ukrainian.

All right, I was talking about a narrower point - I thought you were refuting the presence of Nazi gangs following the events of the 20th. If you're not refuting that, then we have no disagreement. In general, there are some Nazis involved, and also plenty of other non-Nazis. Vast majorit, non-Nazi. It's the remainder, and those with an agenda, that are terrorizing Ukraine's Jews at this moment, that I'm talking about. Any opinion on that?

Any opinion from anyone on the snipers in Hotel Ukraine? One of which was seen with "one of the protester's green helmets?"

 

[Childlike Empress]

Talking about ultranationalism, as I've seen that word thrown around quite a lot by some posters:
Russian nationalist politician Vladimir Zhirinovsky flew to Crimea and addressed cheering crowds in Sevastopol, promising them financial and psychological support against the new government in Kiev.
Russian 'invasion' of Crimea fuels fear of Ukraine conflict

Now there's an ultranationalist for you, plus racist and anti-semite who has had problems denying his own Jewish ancestry. And he is not a rag-tag ad-hoc protester but a party leader sitting in the freaking Russian parliament. Since 90s he has made speeches demanding Russian invasion and annexation of neighbouring countries including... pretty much all of them. In 2010 he boasted that Eastern Ukraine would become part of Russia “in five years".

Needless to say he is a persona non grata in many countries - including Ukraine, but there he is making speeches.

Wake me up when he's distributing cookies on Wall Street.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Any opinion from anyone on the snipers in Hotel Ukraine? One of which was seen with "one of the protester's green helmets?"

Great catch there. Seen this one added by Petri days ago? Could fit:

 

[Childlike Empress]

As to ongoing events, don't forget that the "president" and "prime minister" of Ukraine are Timoshenko lackeys only a few days in office thanks to very questionable events. We shouldn't assume that they are talking the truth (same goes for Janukovic, of course).

 

[L.Y.S.]

The Fatherland party is just as corrupt as the Party of Regions. I highly doubt that any politician in Ukraine has their hands clean. There's a general consensus among most of Ukraine's citizens that their politicians suck and are inept, it's just the ones who suck more differ based on who you ask.

 

[trustbutverify]

Alex Rowell @disgraceofgod
Any day now, those honourable souls in the anti-imperialist, anti-war community will launch their #HandsOffUkraine campaign. Won't they?

'Fraid not, Alex.

 

[crescent]

It's only a theory. Russia will most likely not move its troops anywhere.

You mean, except to the airports, TV stations, and other parts of Crimea that have been"secured" by Russian troops.

Russian soldiers have shut down the airport, taken over the TV station, cut off telecommunications, blockaded the Ukrainian Coast guard. Dozens of flights of Russian military cargo aircraft have been reported to have landed at the airport, and a bunch of Russian helicopters flew directly from Russia to the naval base at Sevastopol.

As much as Russia wants to invade Ukraine, it won't.

This is not a full scale invasion, but it is something. I am thinking that the Russians could be "invited" into Crimea any time now. The USSR had a habit of invading other nations while denying that it was doing anything like an invasion, just as the Russians here have been denying that the armed men in insignia-free uniforms are Russian military. Putin thinks of the USSR as the glory days, so I wouldn't put it past him to dust off some old tactics.

 

[geni]

As to ongoing events, don't forget that the "president" and "prime minister" of Ukraine are Timoshenko lackeys only a few days in office thanks to very questionable events. We shouldn't assume that they are talking the truth (same goes for Janukovic, of course).

Don't care if they are or not. Russia has invaded ukraine. Pray to whatever gods you believe in that the western powers are more reasonable than Putin. Otherwise it will be nuclear nuclear armageddon very shortly.

 

[crescent]

The Fatherland party is just as corrupt as the Party of Regions. I highly doubt that any politician in Ukraine has their hands clean. There's a general consensus among most of Ukraine's citizens that their politicians suck and are inept, it's just the ones who suck more differ based on who you ask.

Unfortunately, I'm in full agreement with you there. Ukrainians have been served poorly by their political leadership on a scale few Americans can understand.

 

[L.Y.S.]

You mean, except to the airports, TV stations, and other parts of Crimea that have been"secured" by Russian troops.

Russian soldiers have shut down the airport, taken over the TV station, cut off telecommunications, blockaded the Ukrainian Coast guard. Dozens of flights of Russian military cargo aircraft have been reported to have landed at the airport, and a bunch of Russian helicopters flew directly from Russia to the naval base at Sevastopol.

I'm doubting these are actually Russian troops. I suspect that these are Russo-Ukrainians that have been provided equipment by the Russian government who took these buildings. I think the Russians are smarter than to directly involve themselves. I could always be wrong though.

 

[geni]

I'm doubting these are actually Russian troops. I suspect that these are Russo-Ukrainians that have been provided equipment by the Russian government who took these buildings. I think the Russians are smarter than to directly involve themselves. I could always be wrong though.

Too disciplined and too fast for civilians.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Too disciplined and too fast for civilians.

I didn't propose that they weren't military. Simply Russians born in Ukraine who are ex-military who defected. That is my suspicion. I would think Russians know about plausible deniability, but then again like I've said before, I could be wrong. These are merely hunches.

 

[trustbutverify]

Don't care if they are or not. Russia has invaded ukraine. Pray to whatever gods you believe in that the western powers are more reasonable than Putin. Otherwise it will be nuclear nuclear armageddon very shortly.

Putin has pretty much a free hand in Ukraine. There will be a diplomatic price to be paid, but that's about it.

 

[angrysoba]

Ukraine invokes the Budapest Memorandum where Russia, US and UK gave their assurances of Ukraine's territorial integrity.
Ukraine pleads for Britain and US to come to its rescue as Russia accused of 'invasion'
U.N. Security Council to hold emergency meeting on Ukraine crisis

Meanwhile Ukrtelecom reports that telecommunications to Crimea have been cut after unknown people have taken over the telecommunications hubs there: Ukrtelecom’s Crimean branches officially report that unknown people have seized several communications hubs in the Crimea
Also: http://i.imgur.com/h95g6k8.jpg

From what I understand, Russians who have been polled on the Crimea crisis have argued that Crimea should be allowed to split from Ukraine and join Russia as part of national self-determination. The treaty, of course, would cause problems there, but not only that it would surely suggest that places such as Chechnya should also get the chance to separate from Russia.

I wonder how well such a proposition would sit with Russian-government fans.

 

[angrysoba]

I'm doubting these are actually Russian troops. I suspect that these are Russo-Ukrainians that have been provided equipment by the Russian government who took these buildings. I think the Russians are smarter than to directly involve themselves. I could always be wrong though.

So, you are pooh-poohing the idea that they are Russian troops and instead making up a different scenario in which the Russian government has delivered large amounts of weaponry and hi-tec kit.

How was it delivered? Air-dropped in by stork to the nearest farm house, perhaps?