Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[MichaelB]

The photos don't show quite what you describe in terms of the placement of the towels. One of them (the green one) was wadded up directly under her right hip. Part of it was under a corner of the pillow found beneath her hips.

The other (white) towel was just to the left of that, between her body and the bed at the level of her hips.

Her face was turned toward the side of her closet, but it looks as though blood also flowed in the other direction, into the area between where the body was found and the bed. He seems to have used one or both of the towels to wipe up blood in this area.

There is no indication that he used the towels to suffocate her, or that he used them to mop up blood in the area where her head lay. I doubt he needed to do anything to hasten her death once he cut her throat.

As for the struggle that preceded the towel activity, it appears to have begun in the corner of her room by her bed and nightstand, which is where the first stab wound was inflicted. She presumably tried to break free, and a struggle ensued in the area by her desk and window. This is where some of her hair was pulled out.

It ended when he forced her to her knees and cut her throat in front of the closet. Then he dragged her into the middle of the room, removed her clothing, and sexually assaulted her.

Thanks for explaining that.

Lalli waffle p20

Q: Describe to us, summarize to us your conclusions, then…
A: Yes, so the conclusions. Well, the cause of death. The cause of death: taking into consideration the circumstantial data and the anatomical and histopathological data it was, the cause of death was in my opinion an acute cardio-respiratory deficiency from a combination of, in part due to the hemorrhage, resulting from the vascular lesion caused by the knife wound at the height of the neck, together with an asphyxial mechanism which, in this case, was shown and, in any case, confirmed by the presence of some subconjunctival petechiae, which is that effect which I showed you in one of the first photographs, as well as by the presence of significant quantities of blood in the intraalveolar. Therefore, a combined mechanism which theoretically can however also be compatible with an action, an additional action of an attempt of strangulation or suffocation, as was then, in some way, suggested during the course of the … during the discussion about the cause of death.

 

[anglolawyer]

The photos don't show quite what you describe in terms of the placement of the towels. One of them (the green one) was wadded up directly under her right hip. Part of it was under a corner of the pillow found beneath her hips.

The other (white) towel was just to the left of that, between her body and the bed at the level of her hips.

Her face was turned toward the side of her closet, but it looks as though blood also flowed in the other direction, into the area between where the body was found and the bed. He seems to have used one or both of the towels to wipe up blood in this area.

There is no indication that he used the towels to suffocate her, or that he used them to mop up blood in the area where her head lay. I doubt he needed to do anything to hasten her death once he cut her throat.

As for the struggle that preceded the towel activity, it appears to have begun in the corner of her room by her bed and nightstand, which is where the first stab wound was inflicted. She presumably tried to break free, and a struggle ensued in the area by her desk and window. This is where some of her hair was pulled out.

It ended when he forced her to her knees and cut her throat in front of the closet. Then he dragged her into the middle of the room, removed her clothing, and sexually assaulted her.

You missed the part where he yanked the Doona off the bed, covered half the floor with it and then rolled her onto it. That and the towels and his own words about the strong impression made by all that blood shows what he was trying to do. He was trying to sustain his arousal, not save her or do anything for her. She was stone dead when he left and he covered her body and locked the door to seal her off in that dissociative thing Nancy spoke about (dancing at the Domus was part of the same thing) and to delay discovery too - as a bonus.

I have never killed anybody but I have dreamed that I have in a distant, almost-forgotten past and I've woken wondering whether I really did kill somebody and had to take a few minutes to distinguish dream from reality. Sometimes I think Guede is like that but when he thinks really hard it turns out it was not a dream.

What happened to those hairs RVWBWL mentioned?

 

[RoseMontague]

What happened to those hairs RVWBWL mentioned?

I believe Ergon said the information that they "lost" them came from Stefi via Barbie.

Many hair fibers appear light colored or blond in direct artificial light. They very well may be brown. Maybe Dan can that a look at that pic and filter out the glare or something.

 

[katy_did]

There is no evidence he applied the towels to her wounds, and there would be evidence had he done so. The photos show he used towels to mop up the floor. I can only guess he did this so he could rape her without getting too much blood on himself.

What evidence is there that he used the towels to mop the floor? There was little blood around her hip area and as far as I know there are no wipe marks in that area either. If there had been, of course Amanda and Raffaele would have been accused of cleaning the floor.

Given the lack of blood around her lower body, it naturally being concentrated around the neck, it seems unlikely the towels became saturated in blood by being in that area.

ETA: Here's one of the crime scene photos:

The pillow looks to have moved upwards a foot or so towards the desk, given that Meredith's head was lying near the boots. Are you saying the towels became saturated in blood by being used to clean the area just south of the pillow? Hard to see how he would've got any blood on himself kneeling in that area, nor why he would've needed to bother running to the bathroom for towels to avoid doing so.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

I believe Ergon said the information that they "lost" them came from Stefi via Barbie.

Many hair fibers appear light colored or blond in direct artificial light. They very well may be brown. Maybe Dan can that a look at that pic and filter out the glare or something.

I wonder what ever became of the hairs in these pictures.

 

[MichaelB]

What evidence is there that he used the towels to mop the floor? There was little blood around her hip area and as far as I know there are no wipe marks in that area either. If there had been, of course Amanda and Raffaele would have been accused of cleaning the floor.

Given the lack of blood around her lower body, it naturally being concentrated around the neck, it seems unlikely the towels became saturated in blood by being in that area.

ETA: Here's one of the crime scene photos:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1095&pictureid=8627[/qimg]

The pillow looks to have moved upwards a foot or so towards the desk, given that Meredith's head was lying near the boots. Are you saying the towels became saturated in blood by being used to clean the area just south of the pillow? Hard to see how he would've got any blood on himself kneeling in that area, nor why he would've needed to bother running to the bathroom for towels to avoid doing so.

Katody thinks he put the towel over her head so he didn't have to look at the wound when he did he thing.

That might explain it.

 

[LondonJohn]

No, this is incorrect. Rudy steals MK's cash and kills her (inadvertently or not) takes off in a panic. Amanda finds her body later that night or in the early morning. Ultimately, she finds Rudy's poop and she knows that it is his. She decided that the poop is the smoking gun that will set her free from the mess that she is in (her plan to have Rudy steal MK's cash and stage a break in while she is at work with an alibi). AK locks MK's door and cleans up any visible blood in the hallway and doors. She needs to do this so that she can setup the discovery of Rudy's poop in the bathroom so that she can show it to the police as soon as they arrive. In Amanda's mind, this is THE evidence that will exculpate her. Once the police find this, she thinks she will be in the clear. How does she find it?? She comes home, needing to "take a shower". This shower in turn, leads her to the other bathroom because she needs to blowdry her hair, which leads to the discovery of Rudy's poop. This is the evidence that is finally causes her to panic and call the police. Police see the poop and in Amanda's mind, she is free and clear. She could not have been involved. The poop, for Amanda, was the most important piece of evidence and she needed to be the first to discover it before her roommates came home to flush it away. That is why she decides to take the shower and call the police. The blood in the bathroom is just enough to add to the escalating evidence of a breakin. Open door, a little blood, stranger's feces in the toilet >> call police and show them the poop. And what was her motive in planning a fake robbery with Rudy? She wanted to break her contract with the landlord so that she could move in with Raff (for free rent) who she had met just 2 weeks prior, someone with a nice apartment and money to spend on her. Motive was clearly money for both of them. A plan gone completely awry. And AK also staged the breakin and the rape scene to point everything to Rudy.

Errrr what???

1) Why would Knox get in league with Guede - a man whom there is zero evidence that she had ever done more than exchange pleasantries with in mixed company - to steal the rent money of her housemate?

2) Just how and why would this fake break-in and theft (had it worked as "planned") been a mechanism for Knox to break her rent contract?

3) If "money was clearly a motive for both of them", how does that sit alongside the fact that Knox had over $4,500 in her account?

4) If the "plan" was to stage a break-in and steal Meredith's rent money, why would Knox (and Sollecito) have acquiesced when this relatively benign crime escalated into an horrific murder? Why wouldn't Knox have alerted the authorities when she realised what had happened by finding the body "later that night or early in the morning"? She could either have disavowed all contact with Guede, or (at worst for her) she could have admitted to planning the break-in/theft but pointing out (truthfully) that she never conceived of any harm coming to Meredith? And even if Knox (and Sollecito) hadn't "fessed up" in this way on the morning of 2nd November, why on Earth wouldn't they have done so once they realised they were charged with Meredith's murder?

Read Amanda's email home on Nov 4. Her motive is there in the last paragraph, it is very telling of her mindset. "Secondly, we are going to talk to the agency that we used to find our house and obviously request to move out." And she also says: "It kind of sucks that we have to pay the next months rent, but the owner has protection within the contract." Wow, her supposed friend just died and she is concerned with a months rent. Callous, insensitive, and selfish. Keep reading that sentence and think about how many times Amanda repeats "my friend" in her book.

You might find it very interesting and instructive to read accounts of Filomena's words and actions in the immediate aftermath of the murder. The evidence shows that uppermost in Filomena's mind was also the question of the rent and the accommodation situation. Then you might reconsider your ill-judged and unsceptical interpretation of Knox's concern about rent/accommodation. You might also (though probably not) come to realise that your analysis of the entire case is predicated on confirmation bias and willful misinterpretation of evidence, dominated by your a priori assumption that Knox (and Sollecito) is culpable for involvement in the murder.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

What evidence is there that he used the towels to mop the floor? There was little blood around her hip area and as far as I know there are no wipe marks in that area either. If there had been, of course Amanda and Raffaele would have been accused of cleaning the floor.

Given the lack of blood around her lower body, it naturally being concentrated around the neck, it seems unlikely the towels became saturated in blood by being in that area.

ETA: Here's one of the crime scene photos:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1095&pictureid=8627[/qimg]

The pillow looks to have moved upwards a foot or so towards the desk, given that Meredith's head was lying near the boots. Are you saying the towels became saturated in blood by being used to clean the area just south of the pillow? Hard to see how he would've got any blood on himself kneeling in that area, nor why he would've needed to bother running to the bathroom for towels to avoid doing so.

You can see blood smeared thinly and unevenly over a broad area between the bed and where her body lay - to the left of the pillow, looking down. That is where the towels were found. Hendry thinks blood flowed into that area and Guede used the towels to wipe it up. I think Hendry is probably correct, but it is a realm of detail has never been 100 percent clear to me. The fact that the quilt lay over all of this makes it that much harder to be sure.

From what I can make out (as there are no good photos) the green towel wasn't all that soaked with blood. The white one was fairly soaked.

I see no sign that he used towels to stem the flow of blood from her neck. I can't say it is impossible that he did so at some point, after which further bleeding eliminated any sign of this.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Katody thinks he put the towel over her head so he didn't have to look at the wound when he did he thing.

That might explain it.

It is possible, but then why wouldn't he leave it there?

 

[LondonJohn]

Katody thinks he put the towel over her head so he didn't have to look at the wound when he did he thing.

That might explain it.

Yes, I think that is a reasonable possibility too. And I think that a good psychiatrist might suggest that the entirety of the towels/duvet use is explainable as a first-time killer being revulsed about the visible consequences of his actions, and seeking to minimise my covering/removing the evidence of his violation of the victim. He does not want to accept that he has "damaged" the victim - by covering her face and neck, and covering the pools of blood with towels, he can just about make himself believe that the victim is still pristine. And the final covering with the duvet is not so much an attempt to delay discovery as another attempt to deceive himself that he has left the victim "sleeping" and "undamaged".

 

[LondonJohn]

My sequence of events is fight, hair pulling, knife, position body, undress then the towel used to suffocate her just prior to the sexual assault because she was still coughing up blood and he wanted to finish her off before he raped her. The towel was right beside her head and the autopsy has suffocation as the secondary cause of death.

There's a reason he included the towels in his story....they meant something to him. If says he tried to save her with them....it means he killed her with them.

JMO

I think that suffocation might be more likely to be as a result of obstruction of the trachea from the neck wound.

I think that the main reason why Guede was so eager to mention the towels is because he knew full well that they would have been found around the body, and he strongly suspected that there might be physical evidence of him upon them - and in the small bathroom from where they had been fetched. Therefore (as with the scream, which he feared might have been heard from the street) he very deliberately sought to weave the towels into his "innocent" narrative. Had he not done so, then he knew he might have faced being confronted later with evidence that contradicted his version of events (for example, had he claimed that he'd never fetched towels, and that he had just rushed out of the cottage in a panic, then this would be contradicted by evidence showing his DNA on the towels and in the small bathroom.

Unfortunately of course, we'll never know just what was on those towels, courtesy of Ms Stefanoni's gross incompetence in storing them improperly. I have a horrible sneaking suspicion that traces of Guede's semen might have been found on one of those towels, thereby destroying at a stroke his claimed order of events. But we'll never know, will we.....

 

[katy_did]

You can see blood smeared thinly and unevenly over a broad area between the bed and where her body lay - to the left of the pillow, looking down. That is where the towels were found. Hendry thinks blood flowed into that area and Guede used the towels to wipe it up. I think Hendry is probably correct, but it is a realm of detail has never been 100 percent clear to me. The fact that the quilt lay over all of this makes it that much harder to be sure.

From what I can make out (as there are no good photos) the green towel wasn't all that soaked with blood. The white one was fairly soaked.

I see no sign that he used towels to stem the flow of blood from her neck. I can't say it is impossible that he did so at some point, after which further bleeding eliminated any sign of this.

I can see a possible smear of blood near the desk at the level of her neck - it seems to lead to the place where one of the towels was found, looking at the photo I posted more closely. It looks to me that the white towel was near Meredith's neck area before being moved a few feet to where it was eventually found, next to the bed and desk.

I'm not sure there would be any real signs if Guede had tried and failed to stem the bleeding (assuming the blood continued to flow, as you say; it obviously wasn't a successful attempt).

The testimony might shed some light on the condition of the green towel, I'll have to check it. I seem to recall that the two towels near Meredith's body were described as more heavily soaked in blood, while the third one lying on the bed was just spotted, but I'm not 100% sure.

ETA: This is the smear I mean, along with a picture showing where the towel was:

 

[Dan O.]

It would be very embarrassing for Mignini et al for Rudy to insist Amanda and Raffaele had nothing to do with the crime. The lawyers and police obviously wanted Rudy to say A & R were guilty, too -- Rudy wouldn't even have thought of it if it hadn't been blared all over the news and then reinforced over the course of four or five months before Rudy finally accused them. It's not unbelievable that Rudy has been threatened to keep his mouth shut.

They won't be able to maintain the threat once he gets out of prison. Rudy should think about that. How will they keep his mouth shut then?

 

[Dan O.]

Errrr what???

My reaction was that was probably the most stupid attempt at creating a scenareo for guilt that we have seen on these threads. For example, saying that Amanda had to control the discovery of the poop so a roommate wouldn't discover it and flush it before she could show it to the police. But the cell tower recorde show that she is near Raffaele's place when she first calls Filomena. She has no way to control what Filomena might do if she got back to the cottage first.

 

[platonov]

No, the thing is this:

If one is going to make grandstanding "ahaaaa" claims, one ought to check one's facts before doing so, otherwise one stands to look foolish and amateur at best, and agenda-driven and mendacious at worst.

I have bolded the most relevant words just to make it a little easier to comprehend than it already is:



Massei Report, Eng tran, pp115-116


So which was it? Embarrassing ignorance/incompetence or mendacious dissembling?

I wasn’t referring to Lalli's 2 -3 hrs or the issue of motility - that’s hardly news to anyone who followed the issue.
He has much more to say on the unreliability of the whole stomach contents/ToD issue but that’s not the point.

I was referring to the degree of digestion based on an analysis of the stomach contents themselves.

Actually I misspoke...it was 3 – 4 hours -- Bracchi. (p119)

Or perhaps I didn’t misspeak – maybe I was curious as to how how the correction of 4 to 3-4 would avoid the ''advanced digestive status'
See how easy it is to admit a mistake (of sorts)

Prof Bacchi.....consultant for the state (p119) [114]

Then he explained that the datum relating to the contents of the stomach had also been considered, and in relation to [the fact] that material in advanced digestive status was found in the stomach, he thought the meal had been eaten three or four hours before death.

See also

Prof Introna .... for the defence (p132) [129]

He recalled the reports by Dr. Lalli and the other experts stating that under macroscopic examination, the stomach contents revealed a piece of apple and floury fragments which might have been from the crumble or from the pizza.

 

[Sergei Walankov]

<snip>

 

[LondonJohn]

They won't be able to maintain the threat once he gets out of prison. Rudy should think about that. How will they keep his mouth shut then?

I don't think there's any chance whatsoever that Guede will ever now say the truth: that he was the sole assailant, and that neither Knox nor Sollecito had anything to do with it.

The reason why I think this is as follows: I think that it suits Guede (and his personality) very well indeed to have people believe that Knox and Sollecito were also involved. It allows him to minimise his perceived guilt. And the fact that there has been official endorsement of Knox's/Sollecito's involvement helps Guede significantly: he can now claim for ever more that he's not just "making up" this construction, but rather that this is a version that has been officially agreed by various authorities.

I think Guede is extremely happy for the public to believe (and to continue to believe for ever) the following (bogus) narrative: Guede was involved, but in a minor capacity, and he was man enough to face up to his actions; Knox and Sollecito, on the other hand, were not only the prime movers in the attack/murder, but they have also tried to wriggle free of facing up to their responsibilities ever since.


Incidentally, I think this also helps to explain the way in which many pro-guilt commentators view Guede. I honestly don't think that they don't realise that Guede was at the very least one of Meredith Kercher's killers. However, what I think is happening is that they are giving Guede "credit" for "manning up" and accepting his punishment. What they conveniently choose to forget, of course, is that Guede never DID "man up" at all - he was boxed into a corner by the inarguable facts of his handprint in blood on the pillow underneath Meredith, his DNA in her genital areas and on her handbag (both of which are far, far more reliable and credible DNA results than anything linked to Knox or Sollecito), and his proven presence and behaviour at the bars and clubs of Perugia within a couple of hours of the murder (and his subsequent flight to Germany).

Under those circumstances, Guede had no choice but to accept that it could be proven that he was present at the time of the murder. He tried, however, to finesse the story - but ultimately did not stand a chance in the face of his proven behaviour immediately after the murder (which, quite simply, cannot reasonably be compatible with someone who had just stumbled over a murder committed by another person who had threatened to blame him for it). Put simply, Guede did all he could - under the circumstances and given the evidence - to try to evade responsibility. And he continues to do so. He deserves no credit whatsoever.

 

[LondonJohn]

I wasn’t referring to Lalli's 2 -3 hrs or the issue of motility - that’s hardly news to anyone who followed the issue.
He has much more to say on the unreliability of the whole stomach contents/ToD issue but that’s not the point.

I was referring to the degree of digestion based on an analysis of the stomach contents themselves.

Actually I misspoke...it was 3 – 4 hours -- Bracchi. (p119)

Or perhaps I didn’t misspeak – maybe I was curious as to how how the correction of 4 to 3-4 would avoid the ''advanced digestive status'
See how easy it is to admit a mistake (of sorts)

Prof Bacchi.....consultant for the state (p119) [114]



See also

Prof Introna .... for the defence (p132) [129]

You're being nothing more than a sophist at this point. Laughable.

(As is your refusal to row back from an ignorant, incorrect and unsupported position - but that's your right. However, it tells everyone else an awful lot about your willingness (and lack of it) to debate in good faith.

Here's the truth: The stomach/duodenum evidence found at autopsy indicate beyond medical doubt that Meredith Kercher died no more than four hours - at the absolute maximum - from starting her last meal. It also indicates that, given we happen to know that Meredith was still alive at 9pm, it's overwhelmingly more likely that she died between 9pm and 9.45pm* than between 9.45pm and 10.30pm. It's impossible that she died any later than 10.30pm.

That's the truth. Much of the testimony heard in the Massei trial was either ambiguous, incorrect or both. As I have said previously, I put this down mainly to the fact that stomach/duodenum evidence of this sort is rarely a usable indicator of ToD to this sort of precision. It so happens that the particular circumstances in this case mean that one can narrow down the ToD much more specifically than would normally be possible, and it's also possible to place an absolute top limit on ToD.

Had the defence teams realised this (and realised the importance that ToD would assume), they would and should have engaged proper experts in the field who would have told the court exactly what I have written here - beyond a shadow of a doubt. Instead, they relied on the vague testimony of pathologists who were clearly unfamiliar with this particular issue, probably (as I said) on account of the fact that they use it so very rarely - if ever - in their normal course of work.

Meredith Kercher died before 10.30pm. Without a shadow of a doubt. The fact that her entire meal was still within her stomach proves this. It also indicates that she almost certainly died at some point between 9pm (the last time she was proven to be alive) and 9.45pm, with a tiny possibility that she died between 9.45pm and 10.30pm.


* Note that the selection of 9.45pm as a dividing point is purely arbitrary - since the probability distribution curve is obviously a continuum. The point is that a hugely greater area under the curve (the area under the curve is an indicator of probability) lies between the points of 9pm and 9.45pm than between 9.45pm and 10.30pm. After 10.30pm, the curve falls to zero on the y-axis - meaning that there's no possibility that Meredith died after that time.

 

[platonov]

I don’t know about that but you’d definitely save a quarter.

You're being nothing more than a sophist at this point. Laughable.

(As is your refusal to row back from an ignorant, incorrect and unsupported position - but that's your right. However, it tells everyone else an awful lot about your willingness (and lack of it) to debate in good faith.

Here's the truth: The stomach/duodenum evidence found at autopsy indicate beyond medical doubt that Meredith Kercher died no more than four hours - at the absolute maximum - from starting her last meal. It also indicates that, given we happen to know that Meredith was still alive at 9pm, it's overwhelmingly more likely that she died between 9pm and 9.45pm* than between 9.45pm and 10.30pm. It's impossible that she died any later than 10.30pm.

That's the truth. Much of the testimony heard in the Massei trial was either ambiguous, incorrect or both. As I have said previously, I put this down mainly to the fact that stomach/duodenum evidence of this sort is rarely a usable indicator of ToD to this sort of precision. It so happens that the particular circumstances in this case mean that one can narrow down the ToD much more specifically than would normally be possible, and it's also possible to place an absolute top limit on ToD.

Had the defence teams realised this (and realised the importance that ToD would assume), they would and should have engaged proper experts in the field who would have told the court exactly what I have written here - beyond a shadow of a doubt. Instead, they relied on the vague testimony of pathologists who were clearly unfamiliar with this particular issue, probably (as I said) on account of the fact that they use it so very rarely - if ever - in their normal course of work.

Meredith Kercher died before 10.30pm. Without a shadow of a doubt. The fact that her entire meal was still within her stomach proves this. It also indicates that she almost certainly died at some point between 9pm (the last time she was proven to be alive) and 9.45pm, with a tiny possibility that she died between 9.45pm and 10.30pm.


* Note that the selection of 9.45pm as a dividing point is purely arbitrary - since the probability distribution curve is obviously a continuum. The point is that a hugely greater area under the curve (the area under the curve is an indicator of probability) lies between the points of 9pm and 9.45pm than between 9.45pm and 10.30pm. After 10.30pm, the curve falls to zero on the y-axis - meaning that there's no possibility that Meredith died after that time.

The only thing laughable here is your attempt to deal with (ignore) the Bracchi - advanced state of digestion issue with a wall of text/your informed opinion.

But carry on – there may be another 25% correction in the offing

.

 

[Strozzi]

Rudy did have at least a bit of a conscience before the lawyers got to him; otherwise he would not have made a point of letting his friend know that Amanda was being wrongly suspected. I think if he were without a conscience, he would have committed more violent crimes before the murder.

Mary, I can't tell if Rudy had any compassion for Amanda and what she was going through falsely arrested. I believe his mind was focused on saving himself. Rudy's (true) statement that Amanda was not present was a statement of fact to clear the stage for his false story that he was there but that strangers he did not know killed Meredith.