Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

Fine, 'rent money', pure speculation, 'window', again speculation, there is far more evidence saying it was broken after the room was ram sacked, 'On the loo', again speculation, I'm starting to see a pattern forming here. The only thing not contested here would be the sexual assault part.

My turn, there was no second person there when the murder took place, just Rudy who Amanda had let in most likely to use the Loo, she left to get help, (Raf) once Rudy started the attack. Rudy left after Amanda return with Raf, that's the part where Amanda stayed outside and Raf confronted Rudy and left right away.

If it had happened in that way, why on Earth would Knox (in particular) and Sollecito not have alerted the authorities and told the exact truth about what had happened? What would they possibly have stood to gain by pretending they knew nothing at all about the murder? Why might they have wanted/needed to protect Guede? What crime would they themselves have been guilty of under this scenario?

(And it's "ransacked", not "ram sacked".....)

This has been part of the whack-a-mole of this case.... this has been covered about 4 "continuations" ago. Truth is, there is no reason for either Knox or Sollecito to have done what Holmes requires. That's before even showing that the evidence doesn't show it, either.

We waited then and we wait now. Why on earth would Amanda act THAT way?

 

[Strozzi]

Fine, 'rent money', pure speculation, 'window', again speculation, there is far more evidence saying it was broken after the room was ram sacked, 'On the loo', again speculation, I'm starting to see a pattern forming here. The only thing not contested here would be the sexual assault part.

My turn, there was no second person there when the murder took place, just Rudy who Amanda had let in most likely to use the Loo, she left to get help, (Raf) once Rudy started the attack. Rudy left after Amanda return with Raf, that's the part where Amanda stayed outside and Raf confronted Rudy and left right away.

Sherlock, where do you get thus stuff ?

Raffaele's sister is a Carabinieri officer in Rome. He's not afraid of the law, the way Rudy or Kokoman might be. If he was at his place at the time of attack interacting with his computer, as you and I both seem to agree, and he somehow, I repeat, somehow learned Meredith was being attacked by some guy, Raffaele in 2 seconds would have whipped out his cell phone and dialed the cops (112 - the Carabinieri number).

Where do you get this idea that Amanda was at the cottage, arranged for Rudy to come to see Meredith, let him it, witnessed the attack and fled back to Raffaele's? Amanda had a better place to be that evening than waiting around her empty cottage. Remember, too, that Amanda and Raffaele were with Meredith that afternoon at the girl's cottage until about 4 pm when Meredith went off to join her British clique for dinner. It was a Friday evening in Perugia. Given Meredith's and Amanda's late night hours, why would either one assume that the other would be home at a reasonable hour (9 pm) rather than midnight or 1 or 2 am?

 

[Desert Fox]

Sunmaster14 came to that conclusion by reading a mostly guilt produced site...for me the proof for innocence came from reading Massei. This is not a difficult case...it is easy in fact.

Mine was struck how close this case was to the Norfolk Four.
Maybe you disagree with me but I think it is very reminiscent.

I have been directed in discussions to guilt sites and the arguments to me were just so bad that they argued for their innocence.

 

[Mary_H]

2) Is there evidence (or do reasonable people here believe) that Rudy actually tried to stanch Meredith's bleeding with towels in a vain attempt to mitigate the damage he had done? I suppose another way of asking the question is "Did Rudy intend to kill Meredith?"

I believe that Rudy did not intend to kill Meredith, and that he did use the towels to try to stop the blood flow. In fact, Meredith was not dead when Rudy left, and I don't think he was qualified to determine whether the injuries he had inflicted were fatal -- I believe he was hoping not. He had escaped the consequences for a few previous crimes and probably counted on this one ending up the same way.

 

[Mary_H]

There is another question which PGP treat like kryptonite and that is if the prosecution had a slam dunk case, how do you explain the massive level Misconduct which ocurred in this case? If the prosecution had a mountain of solid evidence and a watertight case against Amanda and Raffaele, why did the prosecution have to resort to supressing evidence and lying? PGP either ignore or pretend misconduct did not happen.

It has to be proven or at least supported by concrete evidence that the prosecution did resort to suppressing evidence and lying. It would be nice to have the examples all together in one place.

 

[Mary_H]

Sherlock Holmes,

He was looking for rent money. The window broke in much the way that Sgt. Pasquali indicated. He was on the loo when Meredith returned, around 9. He stabbed Meredith, sexually assaulted her, failed to call 112, and then went dancing. Now he is obliquely pointing a finger at others when he knows full well he is the guilty party. Could there have been a second person as a lookout perhaps? Yes. Your turn...

I don't think we should take it for granted that Rudy was on the toilet when Meredith came in. He had already wiped. If he got up in a hurry, he wouldn't have wiped.

 

[Planigale]

It does seem however you try to fix it the only realistic ToD is between 21.00 and 22.00 with the earlier the more likely. If we are sceptical / scientific then we should challenge ourselves and not depend on others to do it.

Looking at the limited evidence for the break in, the distribution of glass fragments really only fits with the window being closed and broken from the outside. I must say the distribution of clothing just looks like any student bedroom, I don't think I'd notice if I'd been ransacked unless they touched my books. My clothes only get tidied before mater and pater visit.

Of course the problem is with an ever changing prosecution case they can just argue the break in was staged by throwing the stone from outside. Then of course nothing was stolen; apart from what was stolen.

From a statistical PoV one would expect simple errors to evenly favour defence and prosecution. It is interesting how errors all go one way - getting the time wrong on the cctv to suggest phone to carabinieri after postal police arrived, mis identifying the shoe prints to incriminate RS, mis identifying footprints, damaging computer drives that might assist alibis. This might be just chance?

 

[Desert Fox]

I believe that Rudy did not intend to kill Meredith, and that he did use the towels to try to stop the blood flow. In fact, Meredith was not dead when Rudy left, and I don't think he was qualified to determine whether the injuries he had inflicted were fatal -- I believe he was hoping not. He had escaped the consequences for a few previous crimes and probably counted on this one ending up the same way.

If she had lived though, he would have gone up for rape still and assault with deadly. Might also get attempted murder. Alive she seems more a danger to him than dead.

 

[RandyN]

That's a good explanation. It seems above their abilities to be able to plan such a ruse, but maybe so. Maybe they are used to doing it with everybody.

The fact that they talked to Raffaele about Amanda suggests they had plans to talk to her.

I have never backpeddled on this at all. I posted what is on the bank statement and what Chris M. told me.

Backpedaled was a poor choice of words. The point remains that you well know this was an issue of long discussion back then and yes (thanks Grinder) the Cali lady is Capealadin who endlessly drones on about this and that also is not really relevant but...

How hard would it have been to state the facts of this matter since it was getting twisted and bent to where the silence was getting painfully loud... if you get my drift.

For example...how hard is this...look the simple facts are that AK bank account in USA got a deposit of X dollars put into it on Y date by Z person or direct deposit. This is simple, easy and should be information readily available to someone with close ties and who also understands what contentions are being milked on the different forums. Saying or doing nothing seems suspicious IMHO. And even if not suspicious then just silly for not quickly extinguishing a hot but false topic. Especially when it was so easy to do. But look...that matter is still unclear fairly recently. Its like one of those stories where no one understands who the killer might be if not AK or RS. And there are tons of people who have no idea there is a Rudy Guede and he has been tried and convicted for 6 years.

Silence is not golden in the court of public opinion. And a howling nation the size of USA who now understands the gross injustice being perpetrated upon our citizen would force the Italians to make less foolish baseless arguments and such careless lawless decisions...or at least I think it might.

At worst it would have the country charged up and fully informed for the impending extradition hearing. As it now stands 1/2 the people have no clue that Knox is being scammed and the other half don't care that she is being scammed...cause she is goofy and has blue eyes or whatever. Plus 5 courts and 100 judges cant all be wrong!!! Right?

I watched a debate between a lawyer and Steve Moore just after the guilty verdict...the lawyer stymied Moore with that simple idea. Mr Moore do you contend that they all got it wrong? In 5 trials and 100 judges and jurors and they all got together to falsely accuse Knox? That is what you are saying here?

And I tell you I felt sorry for Steve because that explanation is difficult and long. And the moderator had a time issue apparently and so Steve never got a chance to adequately refute this lawyers rather easily made contention even thought he tried his best. And it was powerful and made Knox look bad...and I know the facts about these trials and judges and it was still painful to watch. A person uninformed of the facts would have an easy conclusion if just going on that premise. Sure they cant all be wrong and out to get the girl. That idea is ridiculous right? Trust me it is powerful and it will return and someone better be working on that answer and proving the points if an extradition hearing is necessary because any prosecution side lawyer can rattle that off in 10 seconds...hell I could do it.

It instantly puts you on the defense and you must now overcome the CT mask you will be trying to keep off your face...and its hard and good luck because who could ever imagine such mass incompetence, or cronyism, or whatever the hell they call it in Italy...I call it mafia like.

Its powerful because it has the numbers...no facts necessary. They cant all be in on it right....and yet that is exactly what they are! All in on it...except for that one Hellmann court... thank goodness for that one saving grace of almost honesty..if he were completely honest he would not have tried to save Italy millions with the Calunia thing.

Maybe they have this all figured out and we just don't know. I hope so. I don't think so...but I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Grinder]

Bill gosh durn it, I asked for you to let us know from whence you got the info about Micheli regretting his decision to keep the kids locked up but I just checked and no lo tengo.

 

[katy_did]

I believe that Rudy did not intend to kill Meredith, and that he did use the towels to try to stop the blood flow. In fact, Meredith was not dead when Rudy left, and I don't think he was qualified to determine whether the injuries he had inflicted were fatal -- I believe he was hoping not. He had escaped the consequences for a few previous crimes and probably counted on this one ending up the same way.

I agree, Mary. I think grabbing the towels for that reason would be a plausible enough reaction for a first time killer, especially one with no particular history of violence and who presumably hadn't set out with the intention of killing anyone that night.

 

[sunmaster14]

Where do you get this idea that Amanda was at the cottage, arranged for Rudy to come to see Meredith, let him it, witnessed the attack and fled back to Raffaele's? Amanda had a better place to be that evening than waiting around her empty cottage. Remember, too, that Amanda and Raffaele were with Meredith that afternoon at the girl's cottage until about 4 pm when Meredith went off to join her British clique for dinner. It was a Friday evening in Perugia. Given Meredith's and Amanda's late night hours, why would either one assume that the other would be home at a reasonable hour (9 pm) rather than midnight or 1 or 2 am?

I've seen either you or somebody else get the day of the week wrong before, and again here. The murder happened on Thursday evening, and the next day was Friday. Unless the Italians are still using the Julian calendar, but that would move a day in the wrong direction. I don't understand why nobody seemed to have any classes or work on Nov 2. Was that a holiday as well?

 

[katy_did]

Yes. I spoke American for the majority . Sorry to confuse. Of course, you and I know the proper term for it.

Doona?

Must admit I do usually use "cell phones" so as not to confuse the Americans (though it's started to spill over into my non-forum life as well, which is a bit worrying).

 

[Grinder]

I've seen either you or somebody else get the day of the week wrong before, and again here. The murder happened on Thursday evening, and the next day was Friday. Unless the Italians are still using the Julian calendar, but that would move a day in the wrong direction. I don't understand why nobody seemed to have any classes or work on Nov 2. Was that a holiday as well?

Bill don't you have it from a source that they have a satanic calendar used in Nov. that adds a Nov. 0 bringing what most of the world calls Thursday to Friday? It's like the car park video but instead of ten minutes it's one day fast. Or was that slow...

 

[sunmaster14]

I believe that Rudy did not intend to kill Meredith, and that he did use the towels to try to stop the blood flow. In fact, Meredith was not dead when Rudy left, and I don't think he was qualified to determine whether the injuries he had inflicted were fatal -- I believe he was hoping not. He had escaped the consequences for a few previous crimes and probably counted on this one ending up the same way.

I agree that he probably didn't intend to kill. I doubt though that he had any misconceptions about the state she was in when he left. He did lock her door after all.

 

[Strozzi]

OK, thanks. I completely had the wrong idea about this.

I just don't want you to get the wrong impression of Judge Machelli. He is not benevolent.

He is a cronie of Mignini and took Mignini's wild assertions and word-juggling with a wink. Machelli did not demand to see Mignini's non-existent order justifying the denial of attorney rights to the two arrested persons. He also may have agreed to Mignini's request that Raffaele, at that time not having been charged with a crime, be kept in psychologically-abusive solitary confinement for 6 months.

One thing that I have learned as we collectively review this case is that Italian police solve crimes the old-fashion way. Grab your suspect. Rough him up. Help the evidence along. Find someone beholden to you from earlier unprosecuted wrongdoing to serve as your witness when you need one to manufacture circumstantial evidence. If you have several suspects, separate them and squeeze one to testify that the other one did it - I was on the toilet when it appened. Forensic evidence is messy and troublesome, so it is often used to give a scientific facade to a crime scenario.

I read that Mignini was dumbfounded that Raffaele, in solitary confinement for 6 months, did not cave and agree to say anything Mignini wanted him to say against "that cow" Amanda. Some Italians (Raffaele) really know honor.

One interesting thing in this case is to observe that Commodi normally doesn't have to justify how she does her magic. I don't think she has much experience being seriously challenged until this case.

When Mignini needed an "expert" to examine and testify that the partial footprint on the bathmat is Raffaele's and not Rudy's, he contracted with one of the police scientific lab experts to be that expert. Paid him a consulting fee of about Euro 7,000 - to an active-duty police crime lab employee. Incredible !!!

 

[Dan O.]

-
It's interesting that the one with the least post is smarter (skeptically) than the one with more post.
-

Hey!

 

[Strozzi]

I agree that he probably didn't intend to kill. I doubt though that he had any misconceptions about the state she was in when he left. He did lock her door after all.

He locked the door to delay discovery of the crime. He brought towels to her room to try to wipe up evidence of his presence. I think he accosted her without a plan other than to get something from her that moment. Once he cut her, by accident or deliberately, he had to jab her more to overcome her struggle. Once that started, he had to kill her otherwise she would have identified him. He was not just an anonymous Italian guy who could flee and not be identified.

 

[Grinder]

Backpedaled was a poor choice of words. The point remains that you well know this was an issue of long discussion back then and yes (thanks Grinder) the Cali lady is Capealadin who endlessly drones on about this and that also is not really relevant but...

How hard would it have been to state the facts of this matter since it was getting twisted and bent to where the silence was getting painfully loud... if you get my drift.

For example...how hard is this...look the simple facts are that AK bank account in USA got a deposit of X dollars put into it on Y date by Z person or direct deposit. This is simple, easy and should be information readily available to someone with close ties and who also understands what contentions are being milked on the different forums. Saying or doing nothing seems suspicious IMHO. And even if not suspicious then just silly for not quickly extinguishing a hot but false topic. Especially when it was so easy to do. But look...that matter is still unclear fairly recently. Its like one of those stories where no one understands who the killer might be if not AK or RS. And there are tons of people who have no idea there is a Rudy Guede and he has been tried and convicted for 6 years.

Silence is not golden in the court of public opinion. And a howling nation the size of USA who now understands the gross injustice being perpetrated upon our citizen would force the Italians to make less foolish baseless arguments and such careless lawless decisions...or at least I think it might.

At worst it would have the country charged up and fully informed for the impending extradition hearing. As it now stands 1/2 the people have no clue that Knox is being scammed and the other half don't care that she is being scammed...cause she is goofy and has blue eyes or whatever. Plus 5 courts and 100 judges cant all be wrong!!! Right?

I watched a debate between a lawyer and Steve Moore just after the guilty verdict...the lawyer stymied Moore with that simple idea. Mr Moore do you contend that they all got it wrong? In 5 trials and 100 judges and jurors and they all got together to falsely accuse Knox? That is what you are saying here?

And I tell you I felt sorry for Steve because that explanation is difficult and long. And the moderator had a time issue apparently and so Steve never got a chance to adequately refute this lawyers rather easily made contention even thought he tried his best. And it was powerful and made Knox look bad...and I know the facts about these trials and judges and it was still painful to watch. A person uninformed of the facts would have an easy conclusion if just going on that premise. Sure they cant all be wrong and out to get the girl. That idea is ridiculous right? Trust me it is powerful and it will return and someone better be working on that answer and proving the points if an extradition hearing is necessary because any prosecution side lawyer can rattle that off in 10 seconds...hell I could do it.

It instantly puts you on the defense and you must now overcome the CT mask you will be trying to keep off your face...and its hard and good luck because who could ever imagine such mass incompetence, or cronyism, or whatever the hell they call it in Italy...I call it mafia like.

Its powerful because it has the numbers...no facts necessary. They cant all be in on it right....and yet that is exactly what they are! All in on it...except for that one Hellmann court... thank goodness for that one saving grace of almost honesty..if he were completely honest he would not have tried to save Italy millions with the Calunia thing.

Maybe they have this all figured out and we just don't know. I hope so. I don't think so...but I hope I'm wrong.

Moore is far better used for his previous position in set pieces. He and all people that speak for her should be ready for the question.

A quick thought on that would be to say yes, many people have gotten it wrong, unfortunately including most of the judges. Not all, as she was found innocent by the second full trial. It is interesting Judge Hellmann also turned over another trial that had had three courts find for guilt, so maybe these errors are too common in Italy.

She was called a witch and worse by lawyers for prosecution in court and in many ways, even if it didn't start out that way, it turned into a witch trial. Sadly there is a long list of women that were put to death for being witches and each and every case the judges and juries got it wrong.

Sir, you do agree they got those wrong, don't you?

The guy responds with something about medieval times.

Steve says that perhaps sir should go to Italy and analyze how far their system has really progressed.

 

[kwill]

Doona?

Must admit I do usually use "cell phones" so as not to confuse the Americans (though it's started to spill over into my non-forum life as well, which is a bit worrying).

I think you're safe when it comes to sounding like us. Americans don't say "a bit worrying" . . . it just comes out all wrong when you add the twang.