Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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kwill said:
Thanks, yes I did. I make instructional content for a living (in neuroscience mostly) & these lists of times were just crying out to be placed side by side.

Still waiting for anybody who thinks they're guilty to name the time of death.
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Kwill, I would like to ask you to please make a timeline of the interrogations and related events on the night of Nov 5/6 2007. I think that we will see the relationship between some interesting events in the timeline.

I believe Knox was interrogated for a long time before translator Anna Donnino finally arrived, and that when she got there she found the interaction in chaos. Knox was still defending her veracity when Donnino arrived. Donnino, using her good English skill, had to persuade Knox that she was at the cottage but just did not remember it because she was traumatized and suffered amnesia like Donnino said she (Donnino) did when she broke her leg. I think what the timeline will show/visualize is how long Knox denied/resisted the police interrogators' forceful claims that she was at the cottage. It was at least an hour and possibly two hours before she was misled to believe she was at the cottage - or as Police Chief Felice said "she caved and told us what we knew to be true". I think people will be surprised how long Knox stood by the truth until she was overwhelmed by her interrogators use of the Reid technique.

Let's lay the timeline of Knox's interrogation next to the timeline of Sollecito's interrogation. At some point the police took Sollecito to his flat and it was there that Finzi picked up the knife. Let us see that timeline laid along the timeline when the police barge into Lumumba's flat and arrest him without confiscating his kitchen knives. Wouldn't it be interesting to see how many hours the police had his knife before they went to Lumumba's? Why were they satisfied with just Sollecito's knife?
 
GUMPers need to believe their own lies...

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Desert Fox said:
Many people, once they make their mind up, have extreme trouble changing their minds. Smarter people are better at actually coming up with convoluted logic than less intelligent people as well.

As skeptics though, we are suppose to be willing to change our minds. That is one item that disturbs be about the few pro guilt posters on this forum. Their arguments are as poor as anybody who is anti-vaxer or pro homeopathy. What is happening with their skeptical thinking?

If you gave me some solid evidence of Amanda's guilt, I would change my mind.
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I would also.

I used to be a GUMPer (GUilty CAmper) when I first saw the news here in Seattle and even rooted for Harry Rag, but then people started attacking him... with of all things, logic and real evidence. That's when I began seeing what was really going on.

Most people won't admit they are wrong (in my opinion), because that would be the same thing (to themselves) as admitting everything they think and say is wrong, and their believability is more important to them than admitting their wrong. Plus add to some of that, that some of them are using Amanda as a public substitute for what they really hate; if they're wrong about Amanda, it means they are wrong about their hate.

I, myself, used to be that way until I finally realized (after 50 years) that being wrong was not the end of the world. As a matter of fact, I've found that being willing to admit when you are wrong is a greater feeling of joy (to me anyway) than always being right, plus it takes a lot of pressure off always having to justify myself to the point where I actually created lies (and I knew they were lies, but winning arguements was more important to me than the fact that I knew that they were a lie, the ends justify the means) to prove to others I was right.

Today, I wish I had learned all this a long time ago. My life would have been way more fun,

d

ETA I've also found that people tend to trust what I say more now, or at least they give me the benefit of the doubt more now than they ever did...
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I am not a computer whiz

Caper said:
I asked earlier and did not receive a response... Or at least one I can find. What is the story of the RS computer activity at 9:26pm? How is it known?
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But I think it is the cartoon. Try Naruto as a search term.
 
Paninaro said:
Doesn't the fact that already that is pushing the envelope weaken the argument that the stomach content that not yet had passed into the duodenum shows that Kercher must have died shortly after her return home?

Couldn't that instead increase the likelihood that there maybe was something wrong with Dr.Lallis autopsy, maybe in the way that is described in the Massei report?
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No, I don't think so. The most one could accuse Dr. Lalli of would be not noticing a small amount of ingesta in the duodenum. That doesn't alter the fact that the stomach contents were, indisputably, almost the entirety of Meredith's last meal, still recognisable as such.

Rolfe.
 
Grinder said:
I don't remember for sure but the noise ticket was brought up by Mignini at the end of the first trial by reading the DM story into the record. Given that in Italy the judges may read anything they want it seem the time would be prudently spent producing the bank records as it would only be for one week of activity at most.



We shouldn't need to speculate.



Devil in details. If she put in cash from an unknown source that is more than a little detail. As I've made clear, I would put a lot of effort into clearing my name if I were her.

I would have produced a video for the appeal court and run it on the web and on TV if possible. Someone suggested that elements of it could be shown on a wall in Perugia. I would have found a way to show the entry into the cottage by the climber and the sound tests at Nara's. If a video of Curatolo exists at the Hellmann trial I'd show that as well.
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I would show a video of Rudy playing basketball, jumping up and down, blocking others, shooting a ball up or on a more horizontal trajectory, charging forward 8' with his arms outstretched to block and contain his opponent.
 
Diocletus said:
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Jail/Wiretapping: The client was in jail from day one through the acquittal. Her conversations were wiretapped and her work product was monitored. As far as I can tell, there was no luxury to sit in a "war room" all day, reviewing materials and going over the finer points. No doubt, the prosecution did do this. Amanda probably had to be content to entrust her defense to her lawyers and experts, some of whom no doubt understand points that she does not, e.g., Sara Gino knows what EDFs are.
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Is this another perversity of Italian jurisprudence? Defendants and lawyers can't confer privately? There is no lawyer-client privilege? Or is this another example of unique abuse inflicted on Amanda?
 
Caper said:
I asked earlier and did not receive a response... Or at least one I can find. What is the story of the RS computer activity at 9:26pm? How is it known?
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Dan O answered that question. I can't look his reply up right now, but basically it sounds like Raffaele, having access post-conviction to his own laptop (not the machine they used for Amelie) presented evidence about the 9:26 activity (a Manga cartoon) during the appeal of the first guilty verdict.

Judge Hellman didn't need it to acquit them, so it's not mentioned in the motivations for that appeal.

But it was presented, and has not been disputed.
 
Strozzi said:
Kwill, I would like to ask you to please make a timeline of the interrogations and related events on the night of Nov 5/6 2007. I think that we will see the relationship between some interesting events in the timeline.

I believe Knox was interrogated for a long time before translator Anna Donnino finally arrived, and that when she got there she found the interaction in chaos. Knox was still defending her veracity when Donnino arrived. Donnino, using her good English skill, had to persuade Knox that she was at the cottage but just did not remember it because she was traumatized and suffered amnesia like Donnino said she (Donnino) did when she broke her leg. I think what the timeline will show/visualize is how long Knox denied/resisted the police interrogators' forceful claims that she was at the cottage. It was at least an hour and possibly two hours before she was misled to believe she was at the cottage - or as Police Chief Felice said "she caved and told us what we knew to be true". I think people will be surprised how long Knox stood by the truth until she was overwhelmed by her interrogators use of the Reid technique.

Let's lay the timeline of Knox's interrogation next to the timeline of Sollecito's interrogation. At some point the police took Sollecito to his flat and it was there that Finzi picked up the knife. Let us see that timeline laid along the timeline when the police barge into Lumumba's flat and arrest him without confiscating his kitchen knives. Wouldn't it be interesting to see how many hours the police had his knife before they went to Lumumba's? Why were they satisfied with just Sollecito's knife?
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Yeah, I've been thinking of other timelines/graphics that might work as concise & convincing summaries of evidence. The problem with the one you suggest is that we're missing so many exact times . . . do we know, for example, when RS was first made to say that he couldn't be positive she hadn't left his flat that night?

Interrogation tapes, of course, would help. But then interrogation tapes would be enough to exonerate them without all this work.
 
“Comodi is the liar that has caused this”

Retrocausality ?

Its quite simple really.

On Nov 10 2007 (in a bugged conversation) AK's mother is perplexed when AK doesn’t remember calling Seattle in the middle of the night [04.47] before, as AK's mother puts it, anything has happened – i.e. Before the body was 'discovered'
[but after the police were at the scene or on the road looking for the actual address as it happens]

Now naturally this comes up in the trial in 2009 – Comodi questions AK on this who still cant remember the call or why she made it.

On JREF some time ago Dan O posits and several others agree that this forgetfulness is due to the lies of Comodi.
There follows a '2 minute hate' directed at Comodi which lasts days and the group is enthused

Here platonov enter the scene and mentions retrocausality – which dampens the mood somewhat.

Then for the cops, no make that the prosecution to be still responsible for the forgetfulness/perplexity the notion of mind control [practiced in Nov 2007] enters the story.

It went on for pages & pages and was probably the first time AFAIK that the wildly spinning cartwheel actually slipped thru a crack in the space time continuum.
It was tremendously exciting if a little upsetting for some.

That’s it.

Why Charlie W wants to bring it up again I have no idea.
Perhaps one of the killers has put his/her foot in it again – a common feature in the seemingly never ending stream of nonsense.
 
kwill said:
Yeah, I've been thinking of other timelines/graphics that might work as concise & convincing summaries of evidence. The problem with the one you suggest is that we're missing so many exact times . . . do we know, for example, when RS was first made to say that he couldn't be positive she hadn't left his flat that night?

Interrogation tapes, of course, would help. But then interrogation tapes would be enough to exonerate them without all this work.
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Raffaele was in interrogation perhaps a half-hour before they came for Amanda who waiting in a hallway waiting area. We may be able to pinpoint the time when Raffaele was made to say something because Amanda's account may indicate what the police alleged when they first started talking with her, and what developed later.
The info is all here, somewhere. Let's put it in a timeline.

What time were they called to the Questura? Arrive there? When did the policeman join Amanda in the waiting area to watch her do some yoga, compliment her on her agility, and ask to see what else she could do? A minute later Napoleoni came out of the elevator, was offended by Amanda exercising in front of the police officer who was enjoying the view, and took Amanda in for questioning.

What time did Donnino arrive? We know that when Donnino arrived Amanda was still denying that she was at the cottage. She was still holding out - I think we will see how strong Amanda was holding true for as long as she could in spite of everything done to her! It was only after Donnino arrived that she was persuaded that what she knew needed to be altered to fit the police theory.
Who was in the room with Amanda before then?
What time does Mignini say he arrived?

What times are known about Giobi and Felice and others in the control room?

What time was the confession presented to Amanda. What time did she sign it?

What time were buttons on her cell phone manipulated?

What times does Raffaele remember in his account? When did they confiscate his shoe? What time did they depart the Questura with Raffaele to go to his flat? How long were they there? What time did they return with him to the Questura?

When did they barge in the door at Lumumba's?

What time did Felice hold his victory press conference?
 
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Liar, liar, pants on fire

Platonov,

In the BBC documentary Comodi referred to the mixed DNA evidence as mixed blood and said that there was only one possible explanation. She also imagined a second knife and conjured up an absurd scenario for a lone wolf, then proceeded to say that even Superman could not do it. This contradicted all but one of the forensic experts who testified at the Massei trial. People call her a liar for one very simple and very good reason: she is one.
 
Simple?

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platonov said:
Retrocausality ?

Its quite simple really.
On Nov 10 2007 (in a bugged conversation) AK's mother is perplexed when AK doesn’t remember calling Seattle in the middle of the night [04.47] before, as AK's mother puts it, anything has happened – i.e. Before the body was 'discovered'
[but after the police were at the scene or on the road looking for the actual address as it happens]

Now naturally this comes up in the trial in 2009 – Comodi questions AK on this who still cant remember the call or why she made it.

On JREF some time ago Dan O posits and several others agree that this forgetfulness is due to the lies of Comodi.
There follows a '2 minute hate' directed at Comodi which lasts days and the group is enthused

Here platonov enter the scene and mentions retrocausality – which dampens the mood somewhat.

Then for the cops, no make that the prosecution to be still responsible for the forgetfulness/perplexity the notion of mind control [practiced in Nov 2007] enters the story.

It went on for pages & pages and was probably the first time AFAIK that the wildly spinning cartwheel actually slipped thru a crack in the space time continuum.
It was tremendously exciting if a little upsetting for some.

That’s it.

Why Charlie W wants to bring it up again I have no idea.
Perhaps one of the killers has put his/her foot in it again – a common feature in the seemingly never ending stream of nonsense.
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If it takes 200 plus words to explain something (which you don't even explain), then your explanation is NOT SIMPLE.

The above quote sounds more like you're patting yourself on the back for some kind of fantasy award that you've given yourself and nothing else and none of it even makes any sense? What's up with that?

Hopefully, you didn't break your arm while patting yourself on the back like you did, or do,

d

ETA Some physicists believe entangled particles use time travel to share information seemingly instantaneously, or Retrocausality Could Send Particles’ Information Back to the Future: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/physics/retrocausality-could-send-information-back-to-the-future/
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Times arrow

AmyStrange said:
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If it takes 200 plus words to explain something (which you don't even explain) is NOT SIMPLE.

The above quote sounds more like you're patting yourself on the back for some kind of fantasy award that you've given yourself and nothing else and none of it even makes any sense? What's up with that?

Hopefully you didn't break your arm while patting yourself on the back like you did, or do,

d

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Its extremely simple – just as the broken window problem and a host of others were.
Normally I just post links – here I went to to trouble to actually waste 5/10 minutes typing it out and its still a mystery !

I cant dumb it down any further so there we must leave it.

But just to see if we have any common ground ... Do you accept

A 2007 precedes 2009

B The 2nd law of thermodynamics (times arrow)
 
platonov said:
Its extremely simple – just as the broken window problem and a host of others were.
Normally I just post links – here I went to to trouble to actually waste 5/10 minutes typing it out and its still a mystery !

I cant dumb it down any further so there we must leave it.

But just to see if we have any common ground ... Do you accept

A 2007 precedes 2009

B The 2nd law of thermodynamics (times arrow)
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So what does it mean? Why, in your opinion, did she call her mother before anything had happened?
 
Dumb it up instead

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platonov said:
Its extremely simple – just as the broken window problem and a host of others were.
Normally I just post links – here I went to to trouble to actually waste 5/10 minutes typing it out and its still a mystery !

I cant dumb it down any further so there we must leave it.

But just to see if we have any common ground ... Do you accept

A 2007 precedes 2009

B The 2nd law of thermodynamics (times arrow)
Click to expand...
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Maybe you should dumb it up to yourself first, so you'll know what you're talking about, and then it'll be easier to dumb down for other people to understand too,

d

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AmyStrange said:
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If it takes 200 plus words to explain something (which you don't even explain) is NOT SIMPLE.
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Here is Comodi's question on June 13, 2009:

But from the records, we see that you called your mother -- not only from the records but also the pings that you first called your mother at 12. At midday. What time is it at midday? What time is it in Seattle, if in Perugia it is midday?

From the records, we see that Comodi lied through her teeth to establish a false premise, which Amanda could not correct because she didn't have the records in front of her.

That is simple.

Obfuscating that fact is not simple. Hence the gibberish to which you are responding.
 
So simple, even stupid people can understand...

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Charlie Wilkes said:
Here is Comodi's question on June 13, 2009:

But from the records, we see that you called your mother -- not only from the records but also the pings that you first called your mother at 12. At midday. What time is it at midday? What time is it in Seattle, if in Perugia it is midday?

From the records, we see that Comodi lied through her teeth to establish a false premise, which Amanda could not correct because she didn't have the records in front of her. That is simple.

Obfuscating that fact is not simple. Hence the gibberish to which you are responding.
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Thank you CW,

yes, that is definitely simpler to understand even to a dumb dummy like me, but can you retrocause any of that, so the simply stupid GUMPers can understand it before they need to?

d

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I've never really understood the whole guilty argument about the phone call to her mother - if Amanda was supposed to be up all night and the argument is that Amanda had to speak to her mother due to the stress of killing Meredith, wouldn't she have been more likely to call when she knew her mother would be awake - maybe at the same time she was supposedly buying the mythical bleach?
 
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