Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[Meed]

Can't Ukraine have both a trade deal with Russia that would benefit their eastern industries and also start on the path toward joining the EU? Or does that EU have trade restrictions on non-member states that would make this impossible?

Shouldn't the nationalist rebels be opposed to both a special relationship with Russia and EU membership? (Of course, I've no idea what percentage of the rebels are actually nationalist and/or neo-nazi.)

 

[Klimax]

Can't Ukraine have both a trade deal with Russia that would benefit their eastern industries and also start on the path toward joining the EU? Or does that EU have trade restrictions on non-member states that would make this impossible?

Shouldn't the nationalist rebels be opposed to both a special relationship with Russia and EU membership? (Of course, I've no idea what percentage of the rebels are actually nationalist and/or neo-nazi.)

As I understood reporting, it was Russia. (including some statements by R officials) But I don't think anybody but president knows what happened. As far as EU is concerned, trade deals with Russia are not forbidden. (Ukraine isn't the only country with some economic connection with Russia) IIRC there are only few restrictions, mostly trade boycotts like of Iran.

 

[Klimax]

Interesting story by Reuters concerning reaction of crowed about that agreement:
In Ukraine turbulence, a lad from Lviv becomes the toast of Kiev

 

[crescent]

Doesn't it ever get exhausting thinking that everything is a false-flag conspiracy theory?

The video I linked to earlier shows clips of police shooting at the protesters. Nice, clear video.

That could be faked, it could be a conspiracy. Of course, it was filmed in front of hundreds of people in broad daylight in the main plaza of the capitol city of a large, developed nation. I reckon they would only need a few thousand people in on it; of course, none of them have come forward.

My theory is that none of them came forward, because there is way too much money to be made off the "success" of the moon landings.

Wait, sorry. I am getting my profoundly unlikely conspiracies mixed up again.

It is more likely that the police fired on the protesters and killed a bunch of them. Some of that was self defense - many of the protesters were obvious hotheads who would kill the police, if they could; the police leadership seemed incompetent and put many officers in a position where they might have needed to use lethal force to protect themselves. But it is equally clear that the mass of the protesters lacked firearms, and much of this and other videos shows police firing from a distance, where force protection would be better accomplished with tear gas, fire hoses, and all of the other non-lethal techniques used by competent police forces around the world.

 

[Meed]

As I understood reporting, it was Russia. (including some statements by R officials)

What was?

But I don't think anybody but president knows what happened. As far as EU is concerned, trade deals with Russia are not forbidden. (Ukraine isn't the only country with some economic connection with Russia) IIRC there are only few restrictions, mostly trade boycotts like of Iran.

So what exactly are the rebels and protestors reacting against? Was it mainly that the president didn't want to join the EU or that the he was trying to form a closer relationship with Russia or a combination? I wonder if they would be opposed to both joining the EU and having some sort of special trade deal with Russia at the same time.

 

[trustbutverify]

Doesn't it ever get exhausting thinking that everything is a false-flag conspiracy theory?

Can you suggest a better way to force square pegs into round holes?

 

[Klimax]

What was?

Reason why deal with EU wasn't signed.

So what exactly are the rebels and protestors reacting against? Was it mainly that the president didn't want to join the EU or that the he was trying to form a closer relationship with Russia or a combination? I wonder if they would be opposed to both joining the EU and having some sort of special trade deal with Russia at the same time.

They first came to protest against last second backing off the trading deal with EU and thanks to police actions and some very dictatorship-like laws (like prohibiting demonstrations) it snowballed from there. (Including Afghan veterans)

Opposition is mostly pro-EU. Also a portion of them (no idea how big) is against closer ties with Russia or against any deals with it.

Anything unclear?

 

[Klimax]

Can you suggest a better way to force square pegs into round holes?

Using a tool to make square pegs round...

 

[L.Y.S.]

The question is also whether western Ukraine wants to remain kneeling to Russia. The answer is definitely not. Status quo is not neutral, it is at least as controversial as turning Ukraine towards the west - and much worse for Ukraine in the long run.

McHrozni

From my understanding of it, western Ukraine will not survive without the Eastern half. That's literally where all the businesses and ports are located. Western Ukraine would be poor, and their fighting to keep eastern Ukraine interested. My guess is that eastern Ukraine is not interested.

 

[Meed]

Reason why deal with EU wasn't signed.

They first came to protest against last second backing off the trading deal with EU and thanks to police actions and some very dictatorship-like laws (like prohibiting demonstrations) it snowballed from there. (Including Afghan veterans)

Opposition is mostly pro-EU. Also a portion of them (no idea how big) is against closer ties with Russia or against any deals with it.

Anything unclear?

No, that makes sense.

 

[dudalb]

No, that makes sense.

It's not just about economics;Ukraine and Russia have a "History" and many Ukrainians are afraid that the deal with Russia was just the first step to force Ukraine back into a union with Russia.
Think Great Britain and Ireland as a rough parrellel.

 

[L.Y.S.]

It's not just about economics;Ukraine and Russia have a "History" and many Ukrainians are afraid that the deal with Russia was just the first step to force Ukraine back into a union with Russia.
Think Great Britain and Ireland as a rough parrellel.

Exactly and Northern Ireland still has close ties to Britain where as Ireland has moved for independence. The same can roughly be said about Eastern and Western Ukraine respectively. ALL Ukrainians do not fear Russians. Some actually have good relationships across the border.

 

[Meed]

Exactly and Northern Ireland still has close ties to Britain where as Ireland has moved for independence. The came be said comparatively of Eastern and Western Ukraine respectively. ALL Ukrainians do not fear Russians. Some actually have good relationships across the border.

Yeah I had a Ukrainian roommate and he said when he was a kid they hated Germans way more than Russians where he lived. I imagine in other areas of Ukraine that would have been different.

 

[trustbutverify]

My Polish ex couldn't decide if she hated Germans or Russians more.

 

[angrysoba]

Yeah I had a Ukrainian roommate and he said when he was a kid they hated Germans way more than Russians where he lived. I imagine in other areas of Ukraine that would have been different.

My Polish ex couldn't decide if she hated Germans or Russians more.

Yet Russians and Germans I know seem to love each other. When I have asked why they say they love each other because of their history of frequent wars with each other.

Maybe that's why the British and the French love and hate each other at the same time.

 

[trustbutverify]

Considering the treatment Russian POW's received in German prison camps, and the treatment German Women and girls received at the hands of Russian infantry during WWII, that is surprising.

 

[McHrozni]

From my understanding of it, western Ukraine will not survive without the Eastern half. That's literally where all the businesses and ports are located. Western Ukraine would be poor, and their fighting to keep eastern Ukraine interested. My guess is that eastern Ukraine is not interested.

I checked the GDP data. Western Ukraine is already poor, with GDP roughly half that of the east. It's no wonder they want to break the cycle, really. What do Russians expect anyway? That they can neglect half the country forever and nothing ill will happen?

The "would not survive" argument is clearly nonsense. Being poor in Europe means you have a lot of opportunities, if you want to use them. Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Estonia prove it beyond all doubt.

McHrozni

 

[Caustic Logic]

Doesn't it ever get exhausting thinking that everything is a false-flag conspiracy theory?

If you amend that question, I may answer it.

 

[McHrozni]

Exactly and Northern Ireland still has close ties to Britain where as Ireland has moved for independence. The same can roughly be said about Eastern and Western Ukraine respectively. ALL Ukrainians do not fear Russians. Some actually have good relationships across the border.

What you say has some logic behind it for a change. Comparison with Northern Ireland is quite good - the pro-Russian regions are the ones Russians colonized extensively.

It is possible that Russia will end up owning Eastern Ukraine and Crimea as a result. It's a very dangerous precendes though. Russia has substantial minority in Kazakhstan and the Baltics as well, and there are many minorities in Russia. It doesn't bode all that well for the Wild North-East for the next couple of decades at least.

The anti-Imperialist front is dead quiet about this blatant imperialism, I take it?

McHrozni

 

[L.Y.S.]

What you say has some logic behind it for a change. Comparison with Northern Ireland is quite good - the pro-Russian regions are the ones Russians colonized extensively.

It is possible that Russia will end up owning Eastern Ukraine and Crimea as a result. It's a very dangerous precendes though. Russia has substantial minority in Kazakhstan and the Baltics as well, and there are many minorities in Russia. It doesn't bode all that well for the Wild North-East for the next couple of decades at least.

The anti-Imperialist front is dead quiet about this blatant imperialism, I take it?

McHrozni

Russia doesn't need to force Kazakhstan to do anything. They are already joining the Eurasian Customs Union out of free volition.

The Baltics have maneuvered around the issue quite nicely by depriving anyone without ancestry prior to 1940 citizenship. If I'm not mistaken most Russians in the Baltic can't vote. I really don't think the Baltics are under any threat, and Moscow is leery about forcing the Baltics to do anything. They are both NATO and EU allies. A move on them could very well be Russia's last move. In other words, the risk is too high in the Baltic to justify the small gains Russia would receive in the Baltic.

I said something about anti-imperialism? If I did could you link it to me? This is a legitimate question.

I checked the GDP data. Western Ukraine is already poor, with GDP roughly half that of the east. It's no wonder they want to break the cycle, really. What do Russians expect anyway? That they can neglect half the country forever and nothing ill will happen?

The "would not survive" argument is clearly nonsense. Being poor in Europe means you have a lot of opportunities, if you want to use them. Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Estonia prove it beyond all doubt.

McHrozni

The EU is proving quite incapable of bailing out it's current poor members. Greece, a nation that is at least four times smaller than Ukraine is proving to be a nightmare to bailout. Do you really think a huge country the size of Ukraine will receive any substantial financial assistance? Most of the SPIG countries are face some level of uncertainty. Adding a financially insolvent country the size of Spain certainly won't do much to help. This is largely why the EU gave Ukraine such a crappy deal. Even if only half of the Ukraine were to join the EU, one more financially insolvent nation could potentially ruin the EU.