Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[trustbutverify]

Some people will shill for anybody who is "Anti Western Imperialist".
.

Rules are rules.

 

[WildCat]

The question still remains; does eastern Ukraine want to join the EU? The answer seems like no. Western Ukrainians know this, and are trying to sell the EU to a region that is heavily populated by Russians, and that is widely pro-Russian. Business ties are very strong between Eastern Ukrainians and Russians. Breaking these ties will be more difficult than forging new ones with the west.

Excluded middle much?

 

[crescent]

Ukraine unrest: Where were snipers positioned in Kiev?

The BBC's Gabriel Gatehouse speaks to British forensic experts as they work out where snipers were positioned during the Kiev bloodshed in Ukraine.

 

[trustbutverify]

Svoboda racist scumbags:

Congratulations on a successful revolution!

We now formally request that you eat **** and die. Thank you.

Trustbutverify
Acting President...Imperialist Jews of Zion

 

[Damien Evans]

*Snickers*

I am the one with the confirmation bias? I have no dogs in this fight. I can literally care if any country on the European continent sank into the ocean. That still doesn't change the fact that nationalism is sweeping across Ukraine.

You guys can't disprove that Ukraine has a problem with nationalism. Only that it's not as "bad" as Russian nationalism.

Ukraine has the right to choose who they want to ally with. If that happens to be the EU and US fine. If it happens to be Russia then we must also accept that outcome. State sovereignty gives them the right to make decisions both good and bad.

That, right there, is a sentence. It makes no sense whatsoever, but it is a valid sentence.

 

[McHrozni]

It has nothing to do with that. I've noted several times that I would support the westward leaning only if Ukraine gets equitable financial compensation that will prop up their economy. The EU deal proposed at the time sucked, and would've inevitably destroyed the Ukrainian economy.

First of all, an economy that can only survive if it's propped up by subsides is not a successful economy. EU deal wouldn't destroy Ukrainian economy, but it might make it turn away from it's traditional, uncompetitive base. This is not bad for Ukraine, except maybe in the short run where some pain would be experienced. Ukraine will either experience this short term pain, or it will turn into a long term agony. This and nothing else is the choice they have. They clearly made a horrible mistake in not turning away from Russia completely in 1991, but what is done is done.

The question still remains; does eastern Ukraine want to join the EU? The answer seems like no. Western Ukrainians know this, and are trying to sell the EU to a region that is heavily populated by Russians, and that is widely pro-Russian. Business ties are very strong between Eastern Ukrainians and Russians. Breaking these ties will be more difficult than forging new ones with the west.

The question is also whether western Ukraine wants to remain kneeling to Russia. The answer is definitely not. Status quo is not neutral, it is at least as controversial as turning Ukraine towards the west - and much worse for Ukraine in the long run.

McHrozni

 

[Caustic Logic]

Ukraine unrest: Where were snipers positioned in Kiev?

Cannot watch the video, due to my dated system, but that's sure to turn out reliably.[/s] Let me guess - with no actual trajectory information except an activist saying "the bullets came from over there," the expert finds out that was a government-held building so the snipers must've been sent by Yanukovych. Where's this expert from? RARDE retiree?

 

[angrysoba]

Cannot watch the video, due to my dated system, but that's sure to turn out reliably.[/s] Let me guess - with no actual trajectory information except an activist saying "the bullets came from over there," the expert finds out that was a government-held building so the snipers must've been sent by Yanukovych. Where's this expert from? RARDE retiree?

Not sure if it was mentioned what the British experts background was. His face was mosaic'd for some reason anyway.

The method was not quite as you describe but rather a case of lining up bullet holes that appeared to have been caused by sniper rifle rounds.

According to the report footage of Ukranian security forces, using the area from which the rounds appear to have come from, appears to have turned up.

But it wasn't all pro-demonstrator; the report also showed some sinister looking groups call "sotniks" who seem to have taken over a lot of security/intimidation, and the reporter himself bickers a little with Klitschko.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Not sure if it was mentioned what the British experts background was. His face was mosaic'd for some reason anyway.

The method was not quite as you describe but rather a case of lining up bullet holes that appeared to have been caused by sniper rifle rounds.

According to the report footage of Ukranian security forces, using the area from which the rounds appear to have come from, appears to have turned up.

But it wasn't all pro-demonstrator; the report also showed some sinister looking groups call "sotniks" who seem to have taken over a lot of security/intimidation, and the reporter himself bickers a little with Klitschko.

I was being a smart ass who shouldn't be surprised to proven right or wrong. So bullet marks are noted, and lines drawn. Sounds like the right type of thing.

I don't know how much deeper I'll be getting into this whole issue, let alone this aspect, but the questions to ask as the British official news casts the main blame at the EU targeted government - Are the correct lines drawn? More important, are the end points even right? Are the paths these rounds traveled on the same path taken by those that killed protesters? Or only on those used to shoot advancing militants who were taking over the capitol?

The whole scene should be mapped out, ideally, with videos placed, etc. Like we did for al-Houla, Syria, for the rebel takeover there on May 25, 2012. In fact, I'll start a map. (CE, does that info-map idea sound worth doing for this?) And the core sniper issue is the big number brutally picked-off from high windows in the square on the 20th, correct? That's the area, the marks, the lines, the windows, the various stories behind those windows, etc.

That's what need to be checked very carefully before you go blaming a soevreign and besieged government with no motive to commit random brutality. No, the basic motive and logic here points to people trying to create that stupid illusion, to give a sloppy veneer of justice in that government's imminent removal (already decided well before the first sniper round hit the air).

In fact, I'm working on a broad theory behind the attack, but I think the first problem was unarmed police. Those can't be blamed for the planned shooting. Right plan? Start with ten cops shot dead on the 18th. Remeber the RT report from the 19th? They had been unarmed. Right after, they got guns. By the 20th you're free to blame them and those guns... smooth.

Back to the video to close: The "Sotniks" sound a little too visible to be relevant. In this kind of situation, I expect lightning rods to divert the tensions. "these are the sorta Nazi guys. There's five of them. They're kind of spooky but don't seem to really matter. That must be what people meant." Nah, I saw hundreds, of I presume thousands total, and they were central. But I'm flying blind here, so ...

 

[Childlike Empress]

The whole scene should be mapped out, ideally, with videos placed, etc. Like we did for al-Houla, Syria, for the rebel takeover there on May 25, 2012. In fact, I'll start a map. (CE, does that info-map idea sound worth doing for this?) And the core sniper issue is the big number brutally picked-off from high windows in the square on the 20th, correct? That's the area, the marks, the lines, the windows, the various stories behind those windows, etc.

Would certainly be interesting. Should be possible to place it in space and time quite exactly, with "it" being at least the events shown in the 41min video (which I still didn't watch in full). Earlier in the morning RIA Novosti (IIRC) reported of snipers shooting policeman. I remember that SPIEGEL started to report about mass casualties sometime in the late morning, maybe 12h local time. Later reports that the hotel with the journalists was under sniper fire. I think this was Hotel Ukraine (here), and the street in the video is Institutska street just north of that, with the distinctive pedestrian bridge a bit to the west. There should be several livestream recordings. The Lviv report talks of 13 dead at a McDonalds, I seem to remember others spoke of a dozen dead in the Hotel lobby. Is there a McDonalds at the Hotel Ukraine? Etc.

Unfortunately i'm rather busy this week and have no great hope in how helpful people are willing to get.

 

[Caustic Logic]

The slain journalist and his case ...

RT reports

The suspected shooter of Ukrainian journalist Vyacheslav Veremyi, of the local Vesti newspaper, has been arrested, reported the paper, quoting MP Pyotr Poroshenko.

Veremyi died of a gunshot wound in the chest after masked men attacked him last Tuesday on the way home in Mikhailovskaya Street in central Kiev.

Side-note:

The prosecutor’s office in the Volyn region in western Ukraine and members of the Party of Regions in the adjacent Rivne region said they are being pressured and threatened to resign by radicals, RIA Novosti reports.

A number of people from Rivne died in Kiev or, in one case (counted amonth the 67) of illness after returning.

Anyway, Veremyi - RT is RT, only English source on the arraest that popped up. But I know to check his own paper.
http://vesti.ua/kiev/39338-avakov-oproverg-zaderzhanie-ubijcy-vecheslava-veremija
from Ukrainian, whole thing, way less clear this time. It's saying some other stuff, political stuff:

After midnight and. about. Heads MIA Arsen Avakov svyazalsya himself with "West " and we told the following: "You toropytes . Zaderzhanyya not. prodvynulos Although the investigation . uznaete You pervыmy ."

Earlier People's Deputy Peter Poroshenko Monday vecheros in efire Channel 5 was announced at zaderzhanyy podozrevaemoho murder of journalist of the newspaper "Vesti" Vyacheslav Veremyya . "Tot someone killed journalist on Myhaylovskoy already shut ," - he said.

Togda Arsen Avakov, at the request of "West" prokommentyrovat words Poroshenko, said: " Apparently, the Bolsheviks znaet on me ."

Details ozhydayte investigation on our website soon.

TOPIC made ​​public video zhestokoho yzbyenyya Correspondent " West" Vyacheslav Veremyya
On Wednesday evening pozdno on perekrestke Vladymyrskoy and Large Zhytomyrskoy bandytы with bats attacked Vyacheslav Veremyya and IT specialist editorial Alexei Lыmarenko .
Employees ' West ' s vozvraschalys work on taxes , when podverhlys attack. Machine razbyly and zabrosaly svetoshumovыmy grenades. Taxi Driver and Alexei vыtaschyly of cars and zhestoko yzbyly . Vyacheslav has received pulevoe ranenye breasts. Doctors fought for ego life, but bezuspeshno . Journalist " West" died in early bolnytse utrom 19 February.

How to help the the family Vyacheslav Veremyya

(contact info)

I gather his name translated "glory" and that explains "fame" from before. He was attacked with bats? May take some digestion, and this is just one of the 67 non-police victims. I have a list to wrap up.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Election of interim government postponed two days - no candidates.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Would certainly be interesting. Should be possible to place it in space and time quite exactly, with "it" being at least the events shown in the 41min video (which I still didn't watch in full). Earlier in the morning RIA Novosti (IIRC) reported of snipers shooting policeman. I remember that SPIEGEL started to report about mass casualties sometime in the late morning, maybe 12h local time. Later reports that the hotel with the journalists was under sniper fire. I think this was Hotel Ukraine (here), and the street in the video is Institutska street just north of that, with the distinctive pedestrian bridge a bit to the west. There should be several livestream recordings. The Lviv report talks of 13 dead at a McDonalds, I seem to remember others spoke of a dozen dead in the Hotel lobby. Is there a McDonalds at the Hotel Ukraine? Etc.

Unfortunately i'm rather busy this week and have no great hope in how helpful people are willing to get.

I didn't find anything right away and put it off. Good starting work. So I can keep up ... GM or old Wikimpia link?

I might start a stitched-together big map. As for finishing it, no big rush.

 

[Klimax]

I can offer you the videos of Friday night at the Maidan. Go to this German language blog and scroll down to the set of four videos (the fifth a bit down below is of Janukovic after he fled Kiev, saying on television that he won't resign, was shot at several times, Godwin the situation, etc.).
..

Will have look at home, but is there any other source for same event on square? I know that Reuters and co reported that portion of protesters (mainly from Svoboda) weren't satisfied. Considering number of protesters, it wouldn't surprise me if we found out that people from Svoboda were able to drown out rest.

Ok, videos taken into account. (One piece of puzzle in, x to go. Sorry.)
(visually those videos look unchanged, but no idea about sound)

 

[Klimax]

The slain journalist and his case ...

RT reports


Side-note:

A number of people from Rivne died in Kiev or, in one case (counted amonth the 67) of illness after returning.

Anyway, Veremyi - RT is RT, only English source on the arraest that popped up. But I know to check his own paper.
http://vesti.ua/kiev/39338-avakov-oproverg-zaderzhanie-ubijcy-vecheslava-veremija
from Ukrainian, whole thing, way less clear this time. It's saying some other stuff, political stuff:


I gather his name translated "glory" and that explains "fame" from before. He was attacked with bats? May take some digestion, and this is just one of the 67 non-police victims. I have a list to wrap up.

Is that quote auto-translation? Is bit hard to read. (Would check it, but 502)

 

[Klimax]

Note: vesti.ua is down for "technical problems". (Unless my guess-reading isn't off)

 

[Caustic Logic]

Note: vesti.ua is down for "technical problems". (Unless my guess-reading isn't off)

Working here, but maybe that's because I had it loaded. Yes, that was an extra wonky Gtrans. Maybe it was rushed, had typos. I presume we'll hear more. About this and other cases, among those listed translated here.

Beating, IT specialist appear in that report.
#22 Vladimir Zakharov , 57 years. IT specialist. He died in a fire at the office of the Party of Regions to Lipsky . According to some sources , the man choked with smoke bombs after he was beaten with bats , pieces of pipe and feet. According to others, shot pistol shot to the head.

#23 Zaikov James, 73, Zhytomyr. MP of Ukraine 1 (12) convocation, chief editor of " Voice of the citizen ." February 18, 2014 , died of a heart attack to escape the " Berkut " on the street . Instytutska

Some apparently died in fighting for the city. One, #67, is a strange-looking activist with an interesting-seeming story. One was a local hero athlete kid,deaf, if seems, killed by a grenade (who was tossing those?) on the very interesting 18th, when the cops were all getting shot too.

#34 Dmitry Maksimov. Died February 18, 2014 . Silver and bronze medalist in judo Deaf olympics in Sofia. Yomuvidirvalo hand grenade . Boy died from blood loss at the House of Unions.

That's low. The kid couldn't even hear it coming.

All this blood, on Yanukovych's hands! Trying to brutalize peaceful protests into submission. The Nazi gangs were there immediately afterwards, to document and demand justice from the world community!

They've been learning from Libya and Syria maybe? This being Europe, it feels extra strange. Nonetheless, the patterns are familiar.

 

[A'isha]

Doesn't it ever get exhausting thinking that everything is a false-flag conspiracy theory?

 

[Klimax]

Doesn't it ever get exhausting thinking that everything is a false-flag conspiracy theory?

Low level. So far nobody screamed about nonexistent victims... (or something like that)

 

[Klimax]

...
They've been learning from Libya and Syria maybe? This being Europe, it feels extra strange. Nonetheless, the patterns are familiar.

With Libya there were more problems then just "something off". But not sure about your Syria reference.

Currently, it looks more like being in danger of false positive alias confirmation bias. (Or another way, see things not present)