Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think she is swamped. She has a busy life. Take a look at the brainless crap they are pitching at her on her blog. What about the bank deposit she made on the weekend of the murder? What about the lamp? What about her phone calls?

Her defense long ago should have covered the bank deposits in detail, which directly relates to the murder and theft of cash. She obviously doesn't know about the lamp and can only report what the police report and anything she noticed that morning.

None of this relates to the murder much less incriminates her, so she has never bothered to examine her records carefully and reconstruct the details as thoroughly as possible.

Busy or not, certainly after the ISC reversed the Hellmann verdict she owed it to herself to be an expert in the case. I don't understand why she wouldn't have you and others on the "defense team" identify and release all the documents, photos, recordings, etc.


She is working from the premise that it doesn't matter. They are working from the premise that if there is any detail she can't completely explain, or anything she doesn't remember with perfect accuracy, it is proof she is a murderer. They have nothing else to do with their lives. She does.

Many people with more than this case to deal with have done a better job of keeping up and although they (we) have a choice to be involved or not, she doesn't.
 
As a matter of fact, I did call this to her attention. But I try to be sparing with my advice and comments. Look at the big picture here. She probably gets 100 emails a day that she really ought to look at if not read carefully. She has friends, family, a boyfriend... they all want her time. She has to set priorities, and this kind of trivia is not going to be at the top of the list.

Trivia? The devil is in the details.
 
Yummi on TJMK seems to be saying he is certain the new Italian government will not block the justice department in seeking her extradition. Hopefully he will return here and elucidate further about timelines and so on. At least forewarning can be helpful. It is pretty sad.

What are the odds the current Italian administration will be in power in 12 months?

First Republic: 1946-1994
There have been frequent government turnovers since 1945, indeed there have been 61 governments in this time
 
Here is the testimony of the lamp being smashed:

2009-02-28 Transcripts pg 10-11

Deposition of witness - Napoleoni Monica
Defense - Avv. Donati

QUESTION - Photo number 5, first visit is November 2 18:20 the desk, if you remember that this was the state of desk when you interveniste the 6 of November.
ANSWER - This is November 2.
QUESTION - November 2, excuse me. Yes, but he knows the reference is always in reference to its access to the search 6 November ...
ANSWER - There were lamps and above.
QUESTION - So you ...
ANSWER - There were two lights above the desk when I I entered, the lamp that was on the floor behind the door fell off when it was smashed then that is been recognized as the lamp of Amanda Knox was missing from his room, and there is no other light point and the other lamp that was near the bed of Meredith.

Here is the photo of the desk referenced above
dsc_0179.jpg
<dsc_179.jpg> Date Time Original: Nov 2, 2007, 6:20:16 PM

And here is the best photo showing the condition of the lamp on the December 18 visit:
Lamps on desk Dec 18.jpg
<clip from 065.jpg> Date Time Original: Dec 18, 2007, 4:01:45 PM

Clearly from that last photo the neck had only bent and was not broken so what was smashed must have been the bulb.


ETA: Oh my! Look at all that DNA on the lamp. This lamp hasn't been cleaned in a long time!
DNA on lamp.jpg
 
Last edited:
I think, when we make these observations, that we also need to be careful to understand that there were some constraints on the defense that made this case very difficult. Just off the top of my head:

1. Jail/Wiretapping: The client was in jail from day one through the acquittal. Her conversations were wiretapped and her work product was monitored. As far as I can tell, there was no luxury to sit in a "war room" all day, reviewing materials and going over the finer points. No doubt, the prosecution did do this. Amanda probably had to be content to entrust her defense to her lawyers and experts, some of whom no doubt understand points that she does not, e.g., Sara Gino knows what EDFs are.

2. Goalpost-Shifting: The prosecution (from the safety of their war room) kept leaking, shifting theories and changing facts. Every time this happened, the defense had to adjust, and I'm sure this made for a disjointed approach and incomplete understanding of what we now know to be the important issues.

3. Budget: Let's be realistic. After 6 years, this is an ongoing legal case. The defense has had to hire experts and I am sure pay astronomical expert fees. Means are not unlimited, and the work of the defense attorneys and experts, I'm sure, has to be strategically limited.

4. Transparency: The prosecution has not be forthcoming with all of the information that could aid the defense. You pointed out about the early monitoring of Lumumba, and I make the point about missing egrams. When something that should be produced is instead withheld, it is sometimes very difficult to see, in the fog of war, what the missing items are. I think that it is the case here, that with hindsight and time to study, we know of some things that the prosecution has withheld, but with everything else going on, I doubt that they could have been readily identified mid-trial.

Don't get me wrong, I think that some actions of the defense can be criticized, but I also think that all of the above probably rise to a massive Equality of Arms violation under ECHR Art. 6.

I totally agree with all of those well-made points but, even so, for her not to know what time she made that phone call after all this time and after (I assume) doing some basic fact-checking for her book strikes me as a sign of something being badly wrong. It's not the only example.
 
I'd settle for just a time. A single sentence naming the probable time of Meredith's death.

Anybody?

Here's the chart with verifiable timepoints again.

View attachment 30335

Meredith was a healthy young woman who had just shared a normal meal with her friends. All of that meal was still in her stomach when she died.

As a point of reference, here's the definition of a serious digestive disorder called gastroparesis. It involves partial paralysis of the stomach muscles, and it has a variety of causes, including diabetes, MS, and Parkinson's.


source: National Institutes of Health

Meredith didn't have gastroparesis. She didn't suffer from any of the most common symptoms (The most common symptoms of gastroparesis are nausea, a feeling of fullness after eating only a small amount of food, and vomiting undigested food—sometimes several hours after a meal.)

So there it is. She started a meal around 6 pm. When she died, all of it was still in her stomach. She was murdered very soon after she let herself into the villa at about 9 pm. Convince me otherwise.

Missed this before, but this is really good information - you can have a gastric emptying scan (scintigraphy) to diagnose gastroparesis - and it is not common, especially in a young person. A TOD of close to 9pm is by far the most likely

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gastro...ditions/gastroparesis/Pages/Introduction.aspx

They really do need to get a gastroenterolotist to give a specialist opinion and hammer home the time of death evidence
 
Here is the testimony of the lamp being smashed:

2009-02-28 Transcripts pg 10-11

Deposition of witness - Napoleoni Monica
Defense - Avv. Donati

QUESTION - Photo number 5, first visit is November 2 18:20 the desk, if you remember that this was the state of desk when you interveniste the 6 of November.
ANSWER - This is November 2.
QUESTION - November 2, excuse me. Yes, but he knows the reference is always in reference to its access to the search 6 November ...
ANSWER - There were lamps and above.
QUESTION - So you ...
ANSWER - There were two lights above the desk when I I entered, the lamp that was on the floor behind the door fell off when it was smashed then that is been recognized as the lamp of Amanda Knox was missing from his room, and there is no other light point and the other lamp that was near the bed of Meredith.

Here is the photo of the desk referenced above
View attachment 30338
<dsc_179.jpg> Date Time Original: Nov 2, 2007, 6:20:16 PM

And here is the best photo showing the condition of the lamp on the December 18 visit:
View attachment 30339
<clip from 065.jpg> Date Time Original: Dec 18, 2007, 4:01:45 PM

Clearly from that last photo the neck had only bent and was not broken so what was smashed must have been the bulb.

Or you have misunderstood the testimony and what she is referring to as being smashed is the door not the lamp. This is not evidence of the lamp being smashed. Sorry. If it had been there would be photographs of the broken bulb. Find any picture of the room showing broken glass from the bulb. If the glass broke it should be visible somewhere. I am not buying without it.
 
I did a 3D reconstruction of the lamp behind the door. It clearly showed that the neck was broken just below the head from how it moves between pictures.

I recall it was Rita's testimony talking about the lamp which was moved to the desk by the time of the December visit. I'll see if I can find it.
As you have acknowledged, no it did not. My theory is stronger than your pictures :D
 
Last edited:
You deleted before I could say the link took me to about 100 cases. Which one are we supposed to be looking at?

Try this: http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/sites/eng/pages/search.aspx?i=001-126915

Interesting case involving discovery of forensics material, and even mentioning rubber gloves. Interesting comments about the quality of evidence, right to discovery and right to examine witnesses based on discovered evidence.

LOL:

75. The Government argued that there was no possibility that the evidence could have been tampered with since every item seized had been packed separately, after which it had been marked and then opened only during the examination by the forensic experts. All the material evidence had been seized and packed by a specially trained forensic technician and while he had been packing the material, a police officer had simultaneously drafted the seizure report, which the applicant had then signed. The forensic experts had used different rubber gloves when handling different items, and the surface on which they had worked, as well as their instruments, had been thoroughly cleaned after the examination of each item. The Forensic Centre was a member of the European Network of Forensic Science Institutes (ENFSI) and it had applied all the relevant guidelines and standards. Therefore, had the experts noticed any problem with the manner in which the evidence had been packed, they would have noted it in their reports, which they had not done in the present case. The Government insisted that the applicant had been present while the evidence was packed, and invited him to prove otherwise. In the Government’s view, even if the samples had been packed together there would have been no possibility of contamination.
 
Last edited:
Missed this before, but this is really good information - you can have a gastric emptying scan (scintigraphy) to diagnose gastroparesis - and it is not common, especially in a young person. A TOD of close to 9pm is by far the most likely

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gastro...ditions/gastroparesis/Pages/Introduction.aspx

They really do need to get a gastroenterolotist to give a specialist opinion and hammer home the time of death evidence


About the time of the Hellman verdict I recounted the details to a friend of mine who is a nuclear medicine technician in a big hospital, and who does these tests as part of her daily work. She said, yes, sometimes you can just see everything sitting there and going nowhere, for hours. But these people have something seriously wrong with them.

A young woman with no clinical history of a gastric disorder? Ridiculous.

Another pathologist I spoke to looked completely pole-axed when I told her of the Massei conclusion. She was also somewhat surprised that nothing had moved on by the time Meredith returned home, and gave her opinion that even half past nine was pushing the envelope.

Rolfe.
 
About the time of the Hellman verdict I recounted the details to a friend of mine who is a nuclear medicine technician in a big hospital, and who does these tests as part of her daily work. She said, yes, sometimes you can just see everything sitting there and going nowhere, for hours. But these people have something seriously wrong with them.

A young woman with no clinical history of a gastric disorder? Ridiculous.

Another pathologist I spoke to looked completely pole-axed when I told her of the Massei conclusion. She was also somewhat surprised that nothing had moved on by the time Meredith returned home, and gave her opinion that even half past nine was pushing the envelope.

Rolfe.

I agree, the more I look at some of this evidence even 9:30-10:00 would make Meredith very unusual - and all the evidence seems to suggest that she was normal and healthy. People can argue that Meredith might be a one-in-a-million medical miracle, however, this does not change that the most likely time of death is close to 9pm. This really should be more widely understood in this case.

I know a few gastroenterologists, I might have to ask them for an opinion next time I'm in the hospital
 
Last edited:
I kind of agree with the tenor of this post. A moment's reading yesterday and an explanatory post by Charlie left me with the jaw-dropping realisation that she has not got the time line for the morning of the 2nd straight. She thinks she called her mother at noon rather than 47 minutes later and consequently places that call in her book at the time she was walking back to Raf's.

The only inference one can draw from that is that she has not been over it with her legal team over the course of two trials and four years in prison. I am not talking about coaching, which is not allowed where I come from (and usually results in a confused witness trying to remember what they were told to say rather than what they actually remember) but simply confronting her with time line points as an aid to her memory - which is.

She hypothesised on her blog that the lamp was probably borrowed by Meredith. Silly girl. She has not read my article and as a consequence neither she nor her team properly got to grips with that point, albeit the only harm that came from it was in the internet (assuming there were no 'hidden' findings in Massei) where people who don't properly understand the principles think the photographs prove the lamp was already in the room.

Her book disclosed she is confused about raw data and EDFs. She thinks the SAL records = raw data and implies that the prosecution fully discharged its disclosure obligations during the Massei trial. So she is wrong about a fundamental point. One of the worrying things about that is that non-disclosure will be a key plank in any eventual application to the ECHR and, like Randy says, it would be better for her if she deepened her own understanding of what has been happening because over-reliance on what may not always be the best advice is not recommended.

I sense a 'too many cooks' problem in her camp, with offers of advice and help coming in from many quarters, not all of them sound. What she needs is a small, well-chosen, tightly-knit and trusted team and a firewall enclosing her and them so she can focus. The one key area of that focus, with an eye on the ECHR and extradition as well, should be the period 02-06 November 2007.

  1. When did the cops identify Patrick?
  2. why did they not seal his place off?
  3. why did they select a knife from Raf's place?
  4. how come they did not locate the phone from which Patrick sent the 20:18 text?
  5. what exactly did De Felice say at the press conference of which there ought to be a transcript or footage from which to take one?
  6. what do the notes or recordings of her earlier interviews say?
  7. on what date did they set up the environmental thing at Le Chic?

and more.

ETA and why has she said on three separate occasions that I have been able to identify that the cops showed her Patrick's message? I would want an expert view on whether the Sim would still tell us when that message was deleted and then I would request access to it for examination. Well, if I had a time machine I would. It's too *********** late now.

Well said.

I remember how the phone call error struck me reading her book. I thought either her lawyers are idiots or maybe it's my ignorance about how criminal defence should work.

Massei made the phone call into a serious piece of evidence. Galati used it in the appeal. SC repeated it.

It was Vedova who said a few times in court that Amanda is her own best advocate. Sadly it sometimes looks that in her team she really is.
 
Well said.

I remember how the phone call error struck me reading her book. I thought either her lawyers are idiots or maybe it's my ignorance about how criminal defence should work.

Massei made the phone call into a serious piece of evidence. Galati used it in the appeal. SC repeated it.

It was Vedova who said a few times in court that Amanda is her own best advocate. Sadly it sometimes looks that in her team she really is.

I promise you it's not that.

The central point of reference is (or should be) the client's own statement, which should be professionally taken and as detailed as the facts require. It is an aide memoir for the client and the point of departure for the professional conduct of the whole case. Did these guys really operate on instructions communicated by letters from prison (letters which unbelievably entered the public domain)? It would not be possible to take her statement properly and yet leave her thinking she had made that call at mid-day.
 
That's very good indeed! I haven't seen that before. Did you make it yourself? It's truly excellent.

Rolfe.

Thanks, yes I did. I make instructional content for a living (in neuroscience mostly) & these lists of times were just crying out to be placed side by side.

Still waiting for anybody who thinks they're guilty to name the time of death.
 
Thanks, yes I did. I make instructional content for a living (in neuroscience mostly) & these lists of times were just crying out to be placed side by side.

Still waiting for anybody who thinks they're guilty to name the time of death.


Well, congratulations. Respect.

Rolfe.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom