Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[L.Y.S.]

The article you quoted as evidence disagrees with you for some reason

The article I posted about the 300 marchers was nothing more than a visual aid. I will make sure that I clarify that in the future. You seem to have a difficult time understanding that. The USA today article clearly shows that there were 15,000 far right extremists chanting Nazi hymns in the Ukrainian capital of Kiev. Yet a large volume or the vast majority of western Ukrainian rioters aren't Nazi supporting nationalists?

Which articles would that be? The ones you showed there proved there were at least 300 neo-Nazis ready to march in Lviv for Hitlers' birthday, which you immediately asserted as positive proof a vast majority of demonstrators in Ukraine since were neo-Nazis.
Hint: not all nationalists are Nazis.

Again, the article with 300 neo-Nazis was nothing more than a visual aid. And again, the article with the 15,000 marchers describes why the vast majority of western Ukrainians are nationalists, and why many of those nationalists are Nazi supporters. You seem unwilling to admit that there is a problem with RADICAL NATIONALISM in western Ukraine.

I can tell that reading comprehension was a challenge for you in grammar school.

No, but neither is Glory to Britain, or Glory to United States of America in the US. If you don't understand what I've been saying here, you shouldn't be allowed near a keyboard.

McHrozni

I really don't have time for this. I can't even begin to fathom why you'd try to justify slogans like "Death to enemies!" and "[Insert] national above all!". It just makes me giggle at the depths that some posters are going through to justify rhetoric which is contra to their beliefs. All of this just to spite Russia, and prevent Ukrainians from being able to make a reasoned decision about their fate next February.

 

[McHrozni]

The article I posted about the 300 marchers was nothing more than a visual aid. I will make sure that I clarify that in the future. You seem to have a difficult time understanding that. The USA today article clearly shows that there were 15,000 far right extremists chanting Nazi hymns in the Ukrainian capital of Kiev. Yet a large volume or the vast majority of western Ukrainian rioters aren't Nazi supporting nationalists?

No it doesn't. It shows there are at least 15,000 people in Ukraine who consider indenpendance from Russia to be more important than collaboration with Nazis. Anyone who knows the history of Ukraine from the era is utterly unsurprised.

I really don't have time for this.

Then stop spewing ignorance and go away, not many will miss you you know

I can't even begin to fathom why you'd try to justify slogans like "Death to enemies!" and "[Insert] national above all!". It just makes me giggle at the depths that some posters are going through to justify rhetoric which is contra to their beliefs. All of this just to spite Russia, and prevent Ukrainians from being able to make a reasoned decision about their fate next February.

When did I do any of those?

McHrozni

 

[L.Y.S.]

No it doesn't. It shows there are at least 15,000 people in Ukraine who consider indenpendance from Russia to be more important than collaboration with Nazis. Anyone who knows the history of Ukraine from the era is utterly unsurprised.



Then stop spewing ignorance and go away, not many will miss you you know



When did I do any of those?

McHrozni

So you didn't read the article. Those were 15,000 neo-Nazis not 15,000 anti-Russians. I'm not the one spewing stupidity and ignorance. You are completely unwilling to concede that there is a problem with Nazism in western Ukraine. Throwing up Nazi Salutes is a way to combat against Russia right?

As for your last sentence, you're doing it now.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Ukraine=Bosnia 2.0

 

[dudalb]

Hey.L.Y.S.,give it up.
Your first few posts in which you advocated throwing Ukraine to the the Russian wolves in order to appease Putin showed where you are coming from,and your attempts to clothe this in Anti Facism are not fooling anybody.
And you keep on dodging the issue of rampant Russian Nationalism,which seems to be a lot more aggressive then the Ukraine version.

 

[Klimax]

First link is to unrelated event, so to assume anything from it for current events like composition of opposition is very weak idea.

The first article was a visual aid of who you guys were supporting.

You couldn't be more wrong even if you tried. You are trying to argue that whole movement consists of ultra-right, which you have still not supported by any evidence and by way of using unrelated event.

Big fail for your "visual aid" as it doesn't aid anything but to show how badly your claims are supported.

Second and third link shows that any event like this will attract extremists. Big surprise, but you need to prove that they constituted majority, which this link doesn't support.

The link states that the vast majority of western Ukrainian participants support the Svoboda party, which is a nationalist party. I don't know what else to say if you can't learn to extrapolate context clues. It also stated that the vast majority of western Ukrainians view an old Nazi regiment as heroes. If that doesn't paint a picture for you I don't know what will. Be stupid if you want to.

Nationalists are not ultranationalists. As usual, wrong. BTW: I suggest to forget word "stupid", because not only you are "right" person to use it, but you are quite close to rule 12 breach. (BTW: Irony strikes again)

Anyway, so many words for so empty and wrong paragraph demonstrating quite lack of knowledge and willful blindness to inconvenient facts...

Extremists love such upheaval as it allows them to be seen more then usual and to be heard more then usual and they try to use cause for their ends. Seems that they are bit held still in distance as others know how they can damage them.

DUDE! IN THE ARTICLE THE WOMAN STATED THAT UKRAINIANS NOW HAVE TWO UPHILL BATTLES ON THEIR HANDS! SHE SAID THAT UKRAINIANS NOW HAVE TO FIGHT BOTH, "A PRO-RUSSIAN POLICE STATE, AND RADICAL UKRAINIAN NATIONALISTS". AN EXCERPT FROM THE ARTICLE!!!

Caps lock is not good idea nor is your friend. I suggest to not use it, it just undermines your post.
Anyway, that they have to ensure ultra-nationalists don't seize opportunity, cannot be used as an evidence for any of your assertions.

Progressive activists have “to fight on two fronts, against a regime that supports harmful police violence … and also against extreme nationalism, which is recognized and legitimate on Maidan,” Nikita Kadan, an artist and activist in Kiev, said via Skype during a discussion of nationalism at a Moscow bookstore in December.

Doesn't support any of your claims and assertions. Evidence that ultra-nat is recognized and legitimate on EuroMaidan. Till then your assertions are baseless no matter how many times you quote an journalist.

Ukrainian progressives DO NOT SUPPORT SVOBODA OR THE PARTY OF REGIONS! Svoboda is the one leading the charge! Many Ukrainians are turned off by its ultra-nationalist stance.

Evidence that Svoboda is leading charge? Repeated assertions won't turn it into fact... (And considering your earlier massive mistake or deliberate error, I don't think you will be able to satisfy this)

One'd need to show they constitute majority and they control it, so far no such thing.

ETA: BTW: Nicely picked quotes...

Wow, amazing, we're back to square one. You did not read the articles. How surprising? The vast majority of western Ukrainians support a fallen Nazi regiment and it's difficult to tell who are the majority of rioters in western Ukraine? Nationalism is one of the reasons the Soviet Union collapsed. If we can't even start there, I don't know what else to say.

I did read articles. It's just that they don't support your position in the least. You are repeating assertions and false misinformation pretending it is truth.

Well ,for starter you might want to eliminate your own errors and start providing evidence, but I doubt you will be able to do so with your massive confirmation bias.

So far still no evidence provided for your position.

Ukraine=Bosnia 2.0

The only similarity is country divided. But everything else is as different as possible. No bloody similarity in them. You'd know that if you knew history.

But then it would prevent you from twisting for your own purposes.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Hey.L.Y.S.,give it up.
Your first few posts in which you advocated throwing Ukraine to the the Russian wolves in order to appease Putin showed where you are coming from,and your attempts to clothe this in Anti Facism are not fooling anybody.
And you keep on dodging the issue of rampant Russian Nationalism,which seems to be a lot more aggressive then the Ukraine version.

And from you alls posts you are more than willing to throw Ukraine to a bunch of nationalist dogs. Ukrainians don't even like the nationalists. The fate of 8 million native born Ukrainian-Russians don't mean jack squat to you guys. As long as you can piss off Putin it's all the more victory.

ETA: My original argument advocated for the simultaneous addition of both Ukraine and Russia. Not just one or the other. People here were fervently against that. I would argue most Russians want to work with the west. Only a few are diametrically opposed to its existence.

 

[L.Y.S.]

I ask for the last time, why not just divide Ukraine? Perhaps that will be the best outcome of all of this. Eastern Ukrainians really don't want an EU deal. Western Ukrainians really don't want a Russian deal. A split in the country will bring happiness to all parties involved. A unified Ukraine is probably an idea of the past.

 

[L.Y.S.]

... I doubt you will be able to do so with your massive confirmation bias.

*Snickers*

I am the one with the confirmation bias? I have no dogs in this fight. I can literally care if any country on the European continent sank into the ocean. That still doesn't change the fact that nationalism is sweeping across Ukraine.

You guys can't disprove that Ukraine has a problem with nationalism. Only that it's not as "bad" as Russian nationalism.

Ukraine has the right to choose who they want to ally with. If that happens to be the EU and US fine. If it happens to be Russia then we must also accept that outcome. State sovereignty gives them the right to make decisions both good and bad.

 

[dudalb]

I am sure people made arguments like yours to justify selling Czechslovakia down the river back in 1938. And we know how well THAT worked out.

 

[LSSBB]

I ask for the last time, why not just divide Ukraine? Perhaps that will be the best outcome of all of this. Eastern Ukrainians really don't want an EU deal. Western Ukrainians really don't want a Russian deal. A split in the country will bring happiness to all parties involved. A unified Ukraine is probably an idea of the past.

Why not just divide Chechnya?

 

[L.Y.S.]

I am sure people made arguments like yours to justify selling Czechslovakia down the river back in 1938. And we know how well THAT worked out.

Are you implying that Ukraine joining Russia will cause WW III? Because I'm sure it's really not that serious. The west holds the vast majority of former Warsaw Pact nations. We really aren't conceding territory. Just another lame attempt to humiliate Russia. Do what you will. I would rather wait for the Ukrainians to vote on the issue themselves.

 

[dudalb]

ANd I can guarantee you that the Ukrainians will vote against rejoining Mother Russia.
Your attempts to hide the fact you are bascially making excuses for Russia's aggresive moves is becoming thinner and thinner.

 

[L.Y.S.]

I'm making excuses? Not really, but we'll see. Clearly your worried that Ukrainians won't make that decision since you are supporting the illegitimate actions of nationalists attempting to stage a coup against a legitimately elected government.

Your excuses for holding a grudge against Russia and supporting Nazi lovers grow thinner and thinner.

At any rate, we'll see what happens February 2015.

 

[McHrozni]

So you didn't read the article. Those were 15,000 neo-Nazis not 15,000 anti-Russians. I'm not the one spewing stupidity and ignorance. You are completely unwilling to concede that there is a problem with Nazism in western Ukraine. Throwing up Nazi Salutes is a way to combat against Russia right?

If I didn't, would I know you totally misinterpreted it?

Lookie here:
However, many of Bandera's followers sought to play down his collaboration with the Germans in the fight for Ukraine's independence as the leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, Ukraine's foremost nationalist organization in the first half of the 20th century.

Or this:
The nationalist party Svoboda, which organized Wednesday's rally, was one of the key forces behind the protests, but other opposition factions have said the Bandera rally is unrelated to the ongoing protest encampment in central Kiev.

Your own source directly contradicts you on two key issues - that the said rally was some sort of a Neo-Nazi fest, and that Svoboda is the leader behing Kiev uprising. On the top of it, you accuse me of not reading your sources. I don't know if it's possible to be more wrong than this

McHrozni

 

[Klimax]

... I doubt you will be able to do so with your massive confirmation bias.

*Snickers*

I am the one with the confirmation bias? I have no dogs in this fight. I can literally care if any country on the European continent sank into the ocean. That still doesn't change the fact that nationalism is sweeping across Ukraine.

Good joke there. No dogs in fight? Hah. With all that misinformation you provide, I quite doubt that. Frankly, I told you already you are wrong person to talk about bias. You provided more then enough evidence contrary to this your assertion.

Nationalism in country which has quite forcer dichotomy thanks to Russians? No way possible. History again.

And I will remind you that nationalism is not ultra-nationalism.

 

[Mycroft]

You keep saying "nationalism" as though it's a bad thing. It's not. It's the normal response of people who want independence from a greater power that has oppressed them.

 

[L.Y.S.]

If I didn't, would I know you totally misinterpreted it?

Lookie here:
However, many of Bandera's followers sought to play down his collaboration with the Germans in the fight for Ukraine's independence as the leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, Ukraine's foremost nationalist organization in the first half of the 20th century.

Or this:
The nationalist party Svoboda, which organized Wednesday's rally, was one of the key forces behind the protests, but other opposition factions have said the Bandera rally is unrelated to the ongoing protest encampment in central Kiev.

Your own source directly contradicts you on two key issues - that the said rally was some sort of a Neo-Nazi fest, and that Svoboda is the leader behing Kiev uprising. On the top of it, you accuse me of not reading your sources. I don't know if it's possible to be more wrong than this

McHrozni

In the same sources it also stated that Svoboda was leading the charge. The people out in the streets getting hosed down by and charged by police are Svoboda supporters. I've proven this numerous amounts of time.

Your first paragraph states that Ukrainian nationalists often down play their own savage role in supporting the Nazis. Duties which included but are not limited to, the liquidation of poles and Jews in western Ukraine. The Ukrainians themselves would've become little more than slaves in Hitler's Generalplan Ost. I don't sympathize with exterminationists. Western Ukrainians sold their souls for some cheap freedom that would've been taken away by the Germans anyways, had the Germans actually won the war effort. Hitler makes painfully clear his view on Slavs, Poles, and Jews. For whatever reason Hitler isolated Poles from the rest of Slavs.

As for the second paragraph just more attempts for them to distance themselves from their true stance of Nazism. The opposition will not win in Ukraine. All though there is a growing tide of radical nationalism in Ukraine, their ultra-pro Nazism stance in a region of the world where 20 million people lost their lives combating Nazism is losing them traction fast. If they get to the general elections I'm pretty sure the Party of Regions will sweep them away fast.

ETA: I just want to add that Poles, Russians, and Jews all unanimously denounce the work of Stepan Bandera and considers him a genocidal maniac.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Good joke there. No dogs in fight? Hah. With all that misinformation you provide, I quite doubt that. Frankly, I told you already you are wrong person to talk about bias. You provided more then enough evidence contrary to this your assertion.

Nationalism in country which has quite forcer dichotomy thanks to Russians? No way possible. History again.

And I will remind you that nationalism is not ultra-nationalism.

Sorry, I'll make sure I say ultra-nationalism in the future, because that's what it is. That is what my articles confirm that it is. Ultra-nationalism, the kind that rose in Germany during the 30s that nearly killed your people.

You keep saying "nationalism" as though it's a bad thing. It's not. It's the normal response of people who want independence from a greater power that has oppressed them.

Ultra-nationalism is a bad thing, and that's what's happening in the Ukraine. Now a dull for of nationalism that brings pride and cooperation, but the sharp kind that come with knives, separatism, and internal rivalries. Oh, western Ukrainians were clearly too stupid to read Mein Kampf 70 years ago and see that they were apart of Hitler's little plot. I just want to add that sometimes acting on ultra-nationalism alone yields poor results.

I'll be surprised if Ukraine doesn't descend into civil war.

 

[spin0]

Sorry, I'll make sure I say ultra-nationalism in the future, because that's what it is. That is what my articles confirm that it is. Ultra-nationalism, the kind that rose in Germany during the 30s that nearly killed your people.

Seems you're very confused. Firstly, as already pointed out weeks ago in this very thread, this article you have been posting and claiming as confirmation of "ultra-nationalism" is not about the Euromaidan at all, it's about a different rally.

Secondly, nothing in the article proves your claims of "ultra-nationalism" or "15,000 neo-Nazis" in that particular march.

Thirdly, nothing in the article, or in that particular march, or in the separate rally Euromaidan warrants you going full godwin.
Lighten up, man.

Valentine's Day in Kyiv