Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[Childlike Empress]

RT has also allegedly been shot at. Here's a report from Thursday apparently from inside the hotel that was (according to several sources) taken under fire. Reporter presents a window with a bullet hole. He also says they had seen a group of 10-15 men with rifles and handguns waiting for orders in the lobby of an hotel used as right sector headquarter. Make of that what you want.


Other interesting footage on their channel as well. Here are 7.5 hours apparently livestreamed raw footage from the Maidan on Thursday.

 

[Caustic Logic]

For procedural context: DER SPIEGEL has interviewed five people on the Maidan, who all want to stay until at least the next election because they are afraid that "the opposition (parties) will betray us". Two of them Right Sector guys and one of them says that "half of my troop died on Institutska street, 60 dead in mere minutes".

A nurse says she likes Klitschko but doesn't want him in politics because "he was hit hard on the head for 20 years".

These little signs sit very uneasy with me. Irrational conflation of all dead to "your men" "killed in front of me," in "mere minutes," in "my half-drunk stupor-rage-imagination," by "puppets of the Jews" - (not all " belong) He's serious now after that kind of investment, 60 dead from the moment they rolled into town, and they intend to stay in town and watch things. Hm.

 

[Childlike Empress]

He appears. I meant to say, I read that and it's a fascinating article. Worth re-linking. Several Lviv fatalities. You might've seen the list I started on the ACLOS Ukraine page.

ETA: #51 on the list of 67, not 68 - Solchanyk Bogdan , 29, historian, teacher of Ukrainian Catholic University. He worked at the Department of Modern History Ukraine UCF.

Yeah, i've seen it but didn't want to interfere with your ongoing edits and therefore didn't add him. Good work.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Yeah, i've seen it but didn't want to interfere with your ongoing edits and therefore didn't add him. Good work.

Oh yeah? What luck. I'd rather crash now. I added a few more. Feel free to make it a neutral space within my comment and do whatever makes it the best list. I can take credit

 

[angrysoba]

ETA: I mean, this is clearly a costume, displayed somewhere in Kiev, where there was a massive protest/stage of display. I don't think it's at all clear you caught a secret Yanukovych agent there to kill protesters or whatever. You don't see a darn thing he does except exist, with that stuff on display. A costume at a protest is just as likely to parody someone else as to advertise one's own beliefs. It's like saying the Queen of England is a proven necrophile for being seen getting it on with a zombie - at a costume party. That said, cool work deciding what his costume says exactly. It's interesting to know and helps clarify the picture a bit for me.

Or, maybe you guys really have proven that Yanukovych supporters are the real Nazi mobs here. I bet CNN will run with that. Oh, already did,

I accept that you might be right, and that he is indeed wearing a costume.

I also accept the fact that there clearly are some extremely unsavoury characters in the opposition who could be called neo-Nazis.

Anyway, is it not the case that the Ukrainian Parliament have removed the president? In that case isn't Ukrainian democracy in working order right now?

Good news if that is the case.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Anyway, is it not the case that the Ukrainian Parliament have removed the president? In that case isn't Ukrainian democracy in working order right now?

Actually, not really. He hasn't resigned, procedures haven't been followed, it's all ad-hoc. Future depends on how many in the regions accept this development. Let's hope for the best.

 

[Caustic Logic]

I accept that you might be right, and that he is indeed wearing a costume.

I also accept the fact that there clearly are some extremely unsavoury characters in the opposition who could be called neo-Nazis.

Very cool, more than I expected.

Anyway, is it not the case that the Ukrainian Parliament have removed the president? In that case isn't Ukrainian democracy in working order right now?

Good news if that is the case.

Yeah, probably/maybe/arguably ... I don't know the details of how parilament is working, how much cooperatiion vs. collusion and exclusion, accord vs. hurt feelings, etc. But at least parts of thise seem to reflect things like the will of a good chuck of the people, within legal procedures, etc. It's not just mobs and people running.

 

[geni]

Actually, not really. He hasn't resigned, procedures haven't been followed, it's all ad-hoc.

I'm sure someone can buy off enough judges to say its legal. In the real world most of these things are done in an ad-hoc manner. Its the aftermath that decides if its legal.

Future depends on how many in the regions accept this development. Let's hope for the best.

Which is?

 

[Caustic Logic]

I'm sure someone can buy off enough judges to say its legal. In the real world most of these things are done in an ad-hoc manner. Its the aftermath that decides if its legal.

That shouldn't be true, but it's right on the mark.

 

[A'isha]

Exclusive: How Ukraine Wooed Conservative Websites

Several conservative bloggers repeated talking points given to them by a proxy group for the Ukrainian government — and at least one writer was paid by a representative of the Ukrainian group, according to documents and emails obtained by BuzzFeed.

The Ukrainian campaign began in the run-up to high-stakes Ukrainian parliamentary elections last year, and sought to convince skeptical American conservatives that the pro-Russian Party of Regions, led by President Viktor Yanukovych, deserved American support. During that period, articles echoing Ukrainian government talking points appeared on leading conservative online outlets, including RedState, Breitbart, and Pajamas Media.

The emails and documents, which include prepackaged quotes from election officials and talking points that some writers copied nearly word-for-word, offer a glimpse into how foreign governments dodge tight Justice Department regulations on foreign propaganda to covertly lobby in the United States: The payments were routed through a front group in Belgium to an American consultant, who has urged writers not to cooperate with a reporter investigating the campaign.

Hmm.

EDIT: It's an old article, but still telling.

 

[Klimax]

Not talking from a position of established proof, no, but from all I've seen ... it's a limb I'm willing to go out on.

We have seen something. But there is severe doubt we have seen even fraction of that something. It's trivial (and I am pretty sure you know that and skip that for some reason) how easy it is to selectively pick images to suit your own needs. You can pick such selection to portrait opposition as extremists, you can pick photos to make pro-gov people extremists and so on and on. And that's just selection. Nothing about manipulation with photos. (Just basics like cropping)

Your limb is in grave danger...

The odd old guy CNN chose to lead with? He's not a mob.

They're visual proof far beyond the reliability of people and think tanks saying stuff. But of course you have a point. Like with the Nazi-regions guy, or for that matter, with the one protester so far who didn't follow the "no Nazi images this time" rule (imagined, but based on common sense, and that close to zero such symbols appear). It could mean nothing, as you seem to presume. What if I had zero signs to point to instead of one? The actual truth would still be the same, of course.

Frankly, your visual proof is worth nothing. It is simply just useless and more misdirection then anything else.

As evidence one would either need to show that Svoboda and co are running things or show it. (either some kind of census/poll or by way of reaction of entire crowds to some announcements like truce, because Svoboda IIRC didn't like some terms like slower removal of president)

So one also cannot say their muscle in taking over Kiev was not organized by one of Svoboda's own inner departments, with insurgent mob theory on hand, and orders to wear any color shirt except brown.

We know overall goals and we know who is supposedly running most of opposition and so we can try to spot any divergence between Head and body of protesters. (If majority calms down and heeds known opposition leaders not from Svoboda then we know something about composition of protesting group)

Incidentally it seems that things calmed down.
But I agree, we have so far mostly indirect observations to use. (Maybe sometimes one should check Svoboda's official pages and radio, maybe something might be there)

That might just be part of the deal. If there is such a deal, let's hope it holds. Muscles that have their own brains don't always do what the supposed brain tells them (see, what just happened, to some extent)

Yeah, we saw how protesters split based upon their origins.

First, Kilimax: watching time zones, okay, I'll be baffling. Exp: Pacific time, graveyard shift. I Sleep away half the day, but help guide the sun into place each morning. Hell yeah, night watch.

For me it is all over place, I can be found in strange times for my timezone. But usually I try to visit a thread at least twice a day, when I have time. (I think I forgot to mention that I am student as well... sorry )

BTW:
Newest version of Reuters article:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/...1H0EM20140224?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

Yanukovich, 63, who fled Kiev by helicopter on Friday, was still at large after heading first to his power base in the east, where he was prevented from flying out of the country, and then diverting south to the Crimea peninsula on the Black Sea, acting interior minister Arsen Avakov said.

"An official case for the mass murder of peaceful citizens has been opened," Avakov wrote on Facebook. "Yanukovich and other people responsible for this have been declared wanted."

Yanukovich had left a private residence in Balaclava, near the home base of Russia's Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol, for an unknown destination, Avakov said. He went by car with one of his aides and a handful of security guards.
...
Ukrainian stocks soared to their highest since September 2012, But the hryvnia currency tumbled to a five-year low against the dollar as expectations grew the new government would focus on using dwindling foreign reserves to repay debt rather than defend the currency.
...
They agreed Ukraine's "territorial integrity" must be maintained, Merkel's spokesman said.

It is unlikely the United States and its allies in NATO would risk an outright military confrontation with Russia, but such echoes of the Cold War underline the high stakes in Ukraine, whose 46 million people and sprawling territory are caught in a geopolitical tug of war.

Maybe they should just sell that massive estate and get those money back...

 

[dudalb]

Woah, apparently CE is now shilling for Nazis as well as Putin

Great analysis. I think that "ПАРТІЇ РЕГІОНІВ" (Partiyi regioniv) is Ukrainian spelling, whereas "Партія регіонів" (Partiya regioniv) is Russian. I imagine both would be used in Ukraine. It certainly sounds like a few other examples - Kiev is Russian spelling, Ukrainian name for the same city is Kiyiv, similar with Lvov (Russian) - Lviv (Ukrainian) and so on.

McHrozni

Some people will shill for anybody who is "Anti Western Imperialist".
.

 

[fuelair]

What is the point of those shields they are carrying? They don't look substantial enough to stop bullets.

They weren't - that's why several of the shots of protestors show people with shields falling over with their shields - they had been hit by weapons fire. The shields do/did help against batons and thrown objects (early on the police were throwing rocks). Also a classic shot of a protestor throwing a Molotov cocktail that ignites him as he throws it (successfully). Clearly he had not put the rag in tightly enough (also, there is a neat way or three to not need to pre-light the MC or have a burning rag hanging off it when thrown. I figured them out right after I first heard of MCs - and just thought of another (magnesium ribbon) as I was writing this.....

 

[L.Y.S.]

Hmmm developments seem interesting. I am almost certain the story is far from over. I suspect that civil war will be instigated. We'll see.

 

[Childlike Empress]

As evidence one would either need to show that Svoboda and co are running things or show it. (either some kind of census/poll or by way of reaction of entire crowds to some announcements like truce, because Svoboda IIRC didn't like some terms like slower removal of president)

I can offer you the videos of Friday night at the Maidan. Go to this German language blog and scroll down to the set of four videos (the fifth a bit down below is of Janukovic after he fled Kiev, saying on television that he won't resign, was shot at several times, Godwin the situation, etc.).

The text seems to accurately describe what happens, don't know how useful autotranslate is. They had just signed the agreement brokered by the three EU foreign ministers and the Russian envoy when they entered the stage

First video: Klitschko on stage with the Svoboda leader next to him. He does his unsophisticated act and gets HUGE boos from the crowd, apparently seen as a traitor for signing the document. At the end of the short video, he stops his talk and leaves the stage under very near, very loud demands for "Jarosh" to speak, the leader of the "right sector".

Second video, the "soft Nazi" Svoboda leader speaks. Similar reaction. A few minutes in, people storm the stage and some "simple people from the base" take over.

Third video, Klitschko again, this time he is able to kind of finish, but nobody pays attention to him.

Fourth video (I linked to that one before), Jarosh finally enters the scene and the square starts to cheer.

On the next day as we all saw, that "agreement" wasn't worth the paper it was written on anymore.

 

[angrysoba]

For those who may be interested, I wrote to my "good professor" about the image and he took the time out to respond. I won't quote the email because I haven't asked for permission, but he did tell me that I should not draw any strong conclusions about the photograph and he further says that anti-Semitism is NOT a part of the Party of Regions political platform whatever else may be said of them.

He points out that Red Army imagery is more their thing, and one member Kolesnichenko dressed as a Red Army officer yesterday, apparently.

 

[Childlike Empress]

For those who may be interested, I wrote to my "good professor" about the image and he took the time out to respond. I won't quote the email because I haven't asked for permission, but he did tell me that I should not draw any strong conclusions about the photograph and he further says that anti-Semitism is NOT a part of the Party of Regions political platform whatever else may be said of them.

He points out that Red Army imagery is more their thing, and one member Kolesnichenko dressed as a Red Army officer yesterday, apparently.

I don't quite follow you. You wrote the Yale guy about the CNN image? Out of the blue or is he really "your professor"?

 

[dudalb]

Exclusive: How Ukraine Wooed Conservative Websites



Hmm.

EDIT: It's an old article, but still telling.

Putin appears willing to woo people on both the right and the left if he thinks he can dupe them into supporting his agenda.

I have to laugh at the way some people in this thread scream about how EVIL Ukrainian Nationalism is, why ignoring militant Russian Nationalism,which Putin has definently encouraged.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Some people will shill for anybody who is "Anti Western Imperialist".
.

And some others will shill for anyone seen as for the expansion of the Western Empire. Cool, we have a spectrum set up. Thanks for anchoring one end.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Some people will shill for anybody who is "Anti Western Imperialist".
.

It has nothing to do with that. I've noted several times that I would support the westward leaning only if Ukraine gets equitable financial compensation that will prop up their economy. The EU deal proposed at the time sucked, and would've inevitably destroyed the Ukrainian economy.

It seems that in light of recent events, and with the inevitable withdrawal of Russian financial support, the west will lend money.

The question still remains; does eastern Ukraine want to join the EU? The answer seems like no. Western Ukrainians know this, and are trying to sell the EU to a region that is heavily populated by Russians, and that is widely pro-Russian. Business ties are very strong between Eastern Ukrainians and Russians. Breaking these ties will be more difficult than forging new ones with the west.