Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[angrysoba]

Accusing me of "lying about what you said before" when I originally stated that "the people filming the scene are the people shooting" and later that "I didn't say anything about who was shooting" - totally clear from context that I meant their identity in the latter statement, while I meant the personal union between (unidentified) shooters and filmers in the first statement.

Ha ha! Oh really?

Actually it was extremely unclear in context that you were casting no aspersions about the affiliation of the shooters, and it is utterly disingenuous to pretend now that anyone could have been shooting when you obviously posted the video to exonnerate the Ukrainian security forces. That much is very, very clear and not only that but you berated me for not coming to the "obvious" conclusion and for "acting like a stubborn child".

Really it does your cause no good to be so insulting to people you are talking to on this message board, and for sneering and snickering like you do with your track record of being shown to be wrong.

You have leapt on me twice now in this thread and both times I have knocked you out of the park.

 

[angrysoba]

Is the guy in this photo which is currently on the front page of CNN some kind of Nazi sympathizer?

Some wear sig runes for fashion value but he doesn't look like one of them.

I think I agree with Childlike Empress here. I also think that the guy looks someone for whom Nazi attire is more than a fashion accessory.

I assumed that he was an opposition protestor, except that in order to find out what affiliation he had, I punched in the letters I could read from the helmet. To me it looks like the white on blue says "Regioniv", so after first being directed to some Region 4 DVD players, I finally wised up and typed in "Regioniv Ukraine".

I ended up finding a reference to "Party of Regions".

Here's the website:

http://partyofregions.ua/ua/

Although the Cyrilic looks a litte different, if you go to Wikipedia you can see that, in lower case, the name of the party is written: "Партія регіонів", which is the same as the letters on the guy's helmet.*

Who is the Party of Regions?

It's Yanukovych's party.

In other words, the guy in the helmet is both a Nazi sympathizer and a supporter of Yanukovych.


*ETA: Sorry, that's not quite right. Looks like Ukrainian Cyrilic differs from Russian, but on the website there are two different orthographies of Regioniv, with one of them being the second word of "ПАРТІЇ РЕГІОНІВ". However, it is this which is on the guy's helmet.

 

[trustbutverify]

Oh my.

 

[McHrozni]

I think I agree with Childlike Empress here. I also think that the guy looks someone for whom Nazi attire is more than a fashion accessory.

I assumed that he was an opposition protestor, except that in order to find out what affiliation he had, I punched in the letters I could read from the helmet. To me it looks like the white on blue says "Regioniv", so after first being directed to some Region 4 DVD players, I finally wised up and typed in "Regioniv Ukraine".

I ended up finding a reference to "Party of Regions".

Here's the website:

http://partyofregions.ua/ua/

Although the Cyrilic looks a litte different, if you go to Wikipedia you can see that, in lower case, the name of the party is written: "Партія регіонів", which is the same as the letters on the guy's helmet.*

Who is the Party of Regions?

It's Yanukovych's party.

In other words, the guy in the helmet is both a Nazi sympathizer and a supporter of Yanukovych.


*ETA: Sorry, that's not quite right. Looks like Ukrainian Cyrilic differs from Russian, but on the website there are two different orthographies of Regioniv, with one of them being the second word of "ПАРТІЇ РЕГІОНІВ". However, it is this which is on the guy's helmet.

Woah, apparently CE is now shilling for Nazis as well as Putin

Great analysis. I think that "ПАРТІЇ РЕГІОНІВ" (Partiyi regioniv) is Ukrainian spelling, whereas "Партія регіонів" (Partiya regioniv) is Russian. I imagine both would be used in Ukraine. It certainly sounds like a few other examples - Kiev is Russian spelling, Ukrainian name for the same city is Kiyiv, similar with Lvov (Russian) - Lviv (Ukrainian) and so on.

McHrozni

 

[Caustic Logic]

Is the guy in this photo which is currently on the front page of CNN some kind of Nazi sympathizer?

I'm with CE. You can't be sure from that, but I'd say not, weakly.
ETA: Scanning above, I should have mentioned - he could even be a Y supporter. They use that version of the flag on Facebook. I'm rusty on my Ukrainian flags.

So this whole thing may or may not be decided and over. But there's still a lot of details, some crimes to account for, etc.

From my biased sources I was alerted to this list of the dead, published by Pravda Ukraine. Feel free to explain what's wrong with Pravda as a source, but does anyone dispute this list as seeming shady or wrong? Or is there a better one around, preferably with victim photos like this list? I'm doing a little research on who was shot, when and how, etc.

And as far as sources go, there's one from Vesti that might be of interest. How independent are they/what kind of track record do they have on things like the Ukraine protests?

 

[Klimax]

I saw the thing where he was caught at the airport on my Twitter feed. It doesn't seem to have gotten around, so may be worth digging up.

by Mark MacKinnon, retweeted by Nadim Houry

Citing RIA, so most will want to wait for non-Russian confirmation. http://en.ria.ru/world/20140223/187...-Reportedly-Blocked-from-Fleeing-Ukraine.html

I have seen same thing at Czech news site, so I think it was correct. Reportedly it was due to some problem with his guard. (Bad papers?)

Yeah, and now we have evidence, just from a quick scan, suggesting they are angry Nazi mobs that haven't really changed. Logos and words vs. actions on video = no contest. We can't really know the percentages of white power thugs in there, but my hunch is it's way, way, higher than you're suggesting, which is roughly as much as your peaceful protesters image can handle.

Nazi mobs? Sorry, but you are talking right out of your behind. There is still distinct lack of evidence that "Nazi mobs" are of any significance or size.

Also there is quite question who is who, because apparently not all "Nazi mobs" are among opposition... Also I have to remind you that just pictures and videos are not enough. (Or have we forgotten how easily one can manipulate perception?)

Frankly, one can't say much about opposition as a whole due to it being composed of at least three different groups, each having their own ideology and goals and united only by common goal of getting away from Russia.

We know who looks to be in charge and seems to "command" majority. We know who tries to get any visibility, but that's about that. Thanks to bad moves by former president...

Same boat. But over here it's the weekend at the moment, dunno about your time zone/schedule. And I am a nerd. Sorry if I was seeming to press your time.

Ok.
CET alias Central Europe. I got weekend, but due to nature of work quite few things have to be scheduled to weekend as not to disrupt work of others. (IT)

 

[Caustic Logic]

I think I agree with Childlike Empress here. I also think that the guy looks someone for whom Nazi attire is more than a fashion accessory.

Possibly. I've seen Y supporters use that version of the flag. I'm not sure of your translation work but it sounds plausible. Good job trying stuff like that. Regions is Y's party - its HQ in Kiev was torched, and some say a worker was killed inside, probably by smoke inhalation.

In other words, the guy in the helmet is both a Nazi sympathizer and a supporter of Yanukovych.

Uh, maybe, that guy. Or, it's a protester helmet he stole and re-branded, or the other way around, or he's eccentric and trying to confuse people, or trying to create just that linkage to smear Yanukovych, or ...

But yeah, most likely explanation is both sides have Nazi types. If so, one side's brownshirts engaged in a violent and well-planned militant takeover of the capitol. This guy I'm guessing is not in that crowd, aside just from age, but from a cropped photo I can't be sure.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Nazi mobs? Sorry, but you are talking right out of your behind. There is still distinct lack of evidence that "Nazi mobs" are of any significance or size.

Not talking from a position of established proof, no, but from all I've seen ... it's a limb I'm willing to go out on.

Also there is quite question who is who, because apparently not all "Nazi mobs" are among opposition

The odd old guy CNN chose to lead with? He's not a mob.

Also I have to remind you that just pictures and videos are not enough. (Or have we forgotten how easily one can manipulate perception?)

They're visual proof far beyond the reliability of people and think tanks saying stuff. But of course you have a point. Like with the Nazi-regions guy, or for that matter, with the one protester so far who didn't follow the "no Nazi images this time" rule (imagined, but based on common sense, and that close to zero such symbols appear). It could mean nothing, as you seem to presume. What if I had zero signs to point to instead of one? The actual truth would still be the same, of course.

Frankly, one can't say much about opposition as a whole due to it being composed of at least three different groups, each having their own ideology and goals and united only by common goal of getting away from Russia.

So one also cannot say their muscle in taking over Kiev was not organized by one of Svoboda's own inner departments, with insurgent mob theory on hand, and orders to wear any color shirt except brown.

We know who looks to be in charge and seems to "command" majority. We know who tries to get any visibility, but that's about that. Thanks to bad moves by former president...

That might just be part of the deal. If there is such a deal, let's hope it holds. Muscles that have their own brains don't always do what the supposed brain tells them (see, what just happened, to some extent)

 

[McHrozni]

I'm with CE. You can't be sure from that, but I'd say not, weakly.
ETA: Scanning above, I should have mentioned - he could even be a Y supporter. They use that version of the flag on Facebook. I'm rusty on my Ukrainian flags.

Incidentally, his staff (flagpole?) spells the name Yanukovich It's followed by "U", which I suspect is the root of "Ukraine".

The inscription on his helmet also says "Berkut".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkut_(Ukraine)
Traditionally the name of regime supporters. Pro-regime thugs during the current events.

I think there is enough evidence to say with a great deal with certainty he is a pro-government Nazi. There is nothing that would align him with opposition.

McHrozni

 

[Caustic Logic]

One last post before I pop out for a bit. Just a reminder of my post #445 with the list from Pravda Ukraine, reliability of the list itself, or the source, or alternate source that would be reliable enough to base things on. The Vesti thing, never mind for now. It's confusing.

 

[Childlike Empress]

In other words, the guy in the helmet is both a Nazi sympathizer and a supporter of Yanukovych.

Too bad we don't see, unlike with the sig runes, the whole "ensemble" here so we can't be sure that the hand-written "Berkut" under that thing you think is a Party of Regions sticker isn't accompanied by a hand-written "Hit here" in the upper half, or something like that. But hey, there are the strangest kinds and maybe you finally have a "win" there.

 

[angrysoba]

Woah, apparently CE is now shilling for Nazis as well as Putin

Great analysis. I think that "ПАРТІЇ РЕГІОНІВ" (Partiyi regioniv) is Ukrainian spelling, whereas "Партія регіонів" (Partiya regioniv) is Russian. I imagine both would be used in Ukraine. It certainly sounds like a few other examples - Kiev is Russian spelling, Ukrainian name for the same city is Kiyiv, similar with Lvov (Russian) - Lviv (Ukrainian) and so on.

McHrozni

I will stick my neck out here and say that I don't think CE is actually shilling for Nazis. There are some murky people on both sides, to be sure.

But thanks anyway.

Indeed, was it not Prince Lvov who was Prime Minister of the Provisional Government after the February Revolution in Russia?

I'm with CE. You can't be sure from that, but I'd say not, weakly.
ETA: Scanning above, I should have mentioned - he could even be a Y supporter. They use that version of the flag on Facebook. I'm rusty on my Ukrainian flags.

So this whole thing may or may not be decided and over. But there's still a lot of details, some crimes to account for, etc.

From my biased sources I was alerted to this list of the dead, published by Pravda Ukraine. Feel free to explain what's wrong with Pravda as a source, but does anyone dispute this list as seeming shady or wrong? Or is there a better one around, preferably with victim photos like this list? I'm doing a little research on who was shot, when and how, etc.

And as far as sources go, there's one from Vesti that might be of interest. How independent are they/what kind of track record do they have on things like the Ukraine protests?

CE was saying that the guy probably was a Nazi. It's a real attempt at clutching at straws to say it might be a Yanukovych supporter who "rebranded" an opposition Nazi helmet, especially when...

Incidentally, his staff (flagpole?) spells the name Yanukovich It's followed by "U", which I suspect is the root of "Ukraine".

The inscription on his helmet also says "Berkut".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkut_(Ukraine)
Traditionally the name of regime supporters. Pro-regime thugs during the current events.

I think there is enough evidence to say with a great deal with certainty he is a pro-government Nazi. There is nothing that would align him with opposition.

McHrozni

Yes, I had assumed "Бе́ркут" could be an area of Ukraine, but as you have found out, it is a pro-Yanukovych militia:

The main stated purpose of this national special force is crowd control; however, the Berkut have also been accused of taking part in racketeering, and of terrorizing and attacking Ukrainian voters who would elect non-Yanukovych candidates to local governments,[3] and have a well-documented history of kidnapping, attack, and torture of protesters including during Euromaidan and to a lesser extent the Orange Revolution.

 

[McHrozni]

I will stick my neck out here and say that I don't think CE is actually shilling for Nazis. There are some murky people on both sides, to be sure.

Yeah, I was half-joking. He's shilling for them, and they have Nazis on their side. He may not be shilling willingly

Indeed, was it not Prince Lvov who was Prime Minister of the Provisional Government after the February Revolution in Russia?

Apparently yes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Lvov

Ukrainian is similar to Russian, but prefers narrow sounds, hence Lviv and Kyiv in place of Lvov and Kiev in Russian. It's the most visible difference to me.

McHrozni

 

[Caustic Logic]

So uber impressed with Nazi identification you'll flippantly accuse a fellow member of "shilling for Nazis," then retract the willing part. So honorable of you.

Incidentally, his staff (flagpole?) spells the name Yanukovich It's followed by "U", which I suspect is the root of "Ukraine".

The inscription on his helmet also says "Berkut".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkut_(Ukraine)
Traditionally the name of regime supporters. Pro-regime thugs during the current events.

I think there is enough evidence to say with a great deal with certainty he is a pro-government Nazi. There is nothing that would align him with opposition.

McHrozni

Oh yeah> I've upped Angrysoba's analysis to presumably (out of laziness ATM) right on. And this too (I know you've got making up to do here...)

Collectively, my impression of this dude is of suspiciously thick show of "hey, Yanukovych supporters are the real Nazis." Fits my bill, don't it? The fact that he IS displaying the stuff suggests he's not one of the ones we should be worried about, who somehow overran a national capitol with not a double lightning-bolt I've seen yet. And no, it was not police defection letting them through. It was police running for their lives.

If all there is of this guy is one cropped close-up, it means nothing probably but a self-made cartoon displaying himself for a camera. Otherwise, I'd like to see some context, like how those around him in whichever crowd he was in reacted to his display.

ETA: I mean, this is clearly a costume, displayed somewhere in Kiev, where there was a massive protest/stage of display. I don't think it's at all clear you caught a secret Yanukovych agent there to kill protesters or whatever. You don't see a darn thing he does except exist, with that stuff on display. A costume at a protest is just as likely to parody someone else as to advertise one's own beliefs. It's like saying the Queen of England is a proven necrophile for being seen getting it on with a zombie - at a costume party. That said, cool work deciding what his costume says exactly. It's interesting to know and helps clarify the picture a bit for me.

Or, maybe you guys really have proven that Yanukovych supporters are the real Nazi mobs here. I bet CNN will run with that. Oh, already did,

 

[McHrozni]

If all there is of this guy is one cropped close-up, it means nothing probably but a self-made cartoon displaying himself for a camera. Otherwise, I'd like to see some context, like how those around him in whichever crowd he was in reacted to his display.

If you only expressed the same concern when it was opposition accused of being Nazi

McHrozni

 

[Caustic Logic]

If you only expressed the same concern when it was opposition accused of being Nazi

McHrozni

What? It was me accusing, after seeing their Nazi symbol peeking through the obvious ban on it, engaging in Nazi-mob-consistent acts of militancy. On video, with motions and all kinds of visually verifiable details available for context. I think that's Jew-hate and such they're hitting those cops with, aside from large cobblestones, with serious force, over and over, and molotov coctails, and bullets at times.

You: one face, partial costume, based on letters when letters are even cropped off, no context, nothing. No date, surrounding people, actions. You both did good work, but you need to acknowledge it means nothing, even more than in most cases. Or rather, it means something but no one can prove what. I think it supports my theory, but not well, because of all the stuff it lacks.



I wanted to talk about the victim list (post 445). Was hoping some else would so I don't talk alone.

 

[Childlike Empress]

I wanted to talk about the victim list (post 445). Was hoping some else would so I don't talk alone.

There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the source which has only (part of) the name in common with the infamous one. Sounds quite reputable actually.

The article about Lviv I posted contains one victim by name.

Bogdan Solchanik, a 28-year-old teacher at Lviv’s Ukrainian Catholic University, who was killed, friends said, by a sniper’s bullet to the neck. [...] Outside the church, Pavlo Salo said he first met Solchanik in 2003 and was with him as the firing started on Independence Square on Wednesday morning. He ran back to fetch a shield and the two were separated. He only found his friend a few hours later among 13 bodies outside a McDonalds.

 

[McHrozni]

I wanted to talk about the victim list (post 445). Was hoping some else would so I don't talk alone.

What about it?

McHrozni

 

[Caustic Logic]

First, Kilimax: watching time zones, okay, I'll be baffling. Exp: Pacific time, graveyard shift. I Sleep away half the day, but help guide the sun into place each morning. Hell yeah, night watch.

Then:

There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the source which has only (part of) the name in common with the infamous one. Sounds quite reputable actually.

The article about Lviv I posted contains one victim by name.

He appears. I meant to say, I read that and it's a fascinating article. Worth re-linking. Several Lviv fatalities. You might've seen the list I started on the ACLOS Ukraine page.

ETA: #51 on the list of 67, not 68 - Solchanyk Bogdan , 29, historian, teacher of Ukrainian Catholic University. He worked at the Department of Modern History Ukraine UCF.

For my part, I'm for calling it reputable and moving forward. But for good measure, to avoid TEDIOUS disputes over sources... ah, you can't avoid it I guess.

Anyway, I asked about Vesti. I thought it was Russian. It was. But this is different. One victim, the ninth, purple shirt, is givem as "Vyacheslav Veremiy, a journalist of the newspaper "Vesti", 32 years"*of age, I guess - 4-year-old son. Shot twice in the chest the night of the 18th, died in the morning at the hospital.

Wikipedia doesn't list a Ukrainian Vesti, but there is. I was able to easily find their article upon their own reporter's demise. Again, Google translated from Ukranian:

Early this morning , 19 February, in the Kiev hospital emergency department died correspondent "Kiev" newspaper "Vesti" Vyacheslav Veremei . Late at night on the eve of masked men (неизвестные в масках ) opened fire on our journalist. Doctors fought for several hours life of Fame (celebrity?), but he died on the operating table.

Revision of "Vesti " expresses its heartfelt condolences to the families of Vyacheslav . Mourn with you . We also demand that the law enforcement authorities to conduct an investigation as soon as possible and find the killers of our journalist.

We appeal to all the witnesses of what happened with the request to provide information that will help find the criminals . Contact email address : [email protected].

A couple days later, the party aligned with the people they seem to suggest were the killers, had seemingly taken power. Will this case, and any others like it, be pursued now, or dropped as part of the agreed payback to people who sometimes wear masks?

 

[Childlike Empress]

I wanted to talk about the victim list (post 445). Was hoping some else would so I don't talk alone.

For procedural context: DER SPIEGEL has interviewed five people on the Maidan, who all want to stay until at least the next election because they are afraid that "the opposition (parties) will betray us". Two of them Right Sector guys and one of them says that "half of my troop died on Institutska street, 60 dead in mere minutes".

A nurse says she likes Klitschko but doesn't want him in politics because "he was hit hard on the head for 20 years".