Merged Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

[rcfieldz]

Kiev and Putin

Did "I" cause the death of 25 people by posting 4 words on this site? If the U.S. brings sanctions upon the Ukraine will that help or hurt the people who wish to be more democratic? Is it tantamount to sending the kids to bed without dessert?

 

[L.Y.S.]

Yeah Ukraine will definitely split. Yanukovych is gaining ground in the pro-Russian east and south. This is exactly what I suspected will happen. They're forming a new legislature and everything.

http://news.msn.com/world/protesters-take-kiev-president-calls-it-a-coup

This is probably the best fate for Ukraine.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Sure, a year from now. It's evident they don't want to wait.

On the other hand, it seems that enough of the non-Party-of-Regions members of parliament were in session yesterday and today (joined by a couple dozen MP's who left that party as a result of the president's response to the crisis) to pass some interesting laws. Among them: amnesty for all protesters, and one law prohibiting military or police action against the demonstrators in Kiev. It is my understanding that they have also begun impeachment proceedings.

There are reports that Yanukovych has fled the city of Kiev for Kharkiv, where he supposedly has a more supportive political base.

ETA: It is perhaps in error to assert that more or bigger protests are being held in western states where there are "more neo-Nazi's". The largest protest by far has been in Kiev, and Kiev is centrally-located. If there are indeed larger protests going on in western provinces than eastern ones, it may just as well be a function of distance from the Russian border, as I'm sure a map of the size of Russian-speaking population probably follows a like pattern.

Still, there are definitely protests happening in eastern provinces. Here is one, for instance, in Zaporizhia:

There has already been concessions to hold elections no later than December. The 2004 constitution has been restored. I'm not seeing what else the protestors are whining about. The clashes in the eastern provinces are smaller in comparison to the western clashes. It is understood that Kiev is located in Western Ukraine. Kharkov is the old Pro-Russian Soviet Capital of Ukraine. I suspect that this will be the new capital for a new Eastern Ukraine.

Sorry you are correct, Kiev is in the center of the country. My apologies.

 

[Klimax]

Ah. Erosion control.

How's Saudi Arabian democracy? Not eroding I guess. Cops deliberately beat protesters to death there, and I hear no talk of transitional governments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia
"Unitary Islamic absolute monarchy"

Quite a misdirection.

Hm. How about Russia, direct neighbor of Ukraine. That is hell of democracy, right there... (Incidentally, choosing official mascots of Winter Olympic Games of 2014 by reportets was reminiscent of something.)

 

[timhau]

Ah, what a surprise. The usual suspects are ready to defend anyone who fights against the West the consortium of Jewish bankers, financiers and the NWO. Good job. Why don't you come and join the thread about the CIA operatives trying to undermine the will of the People in Venezuela?

 

[Childlike Empress]

Ah, what a surprise. The usual suspects are ready to defend anyone who fights against the West the consortium of Jewish bankers, financiers and the NWO. Good job. Why don't you come and join the thread about the CIA operatives trying to undermine the will of the People in Venezuela?

Nice stereotypic outburst there. Embarrassing for you that those who fight against the "Moscow-Jewish Mafia" and want to throw all Un-Ukrainians into the Dnepr are seen with your beloved idols of "Western values" and are defended here by the "suspects" usually on your side of the "argument". Too funny. Maybe there's something broken in your worldview, pal, at least you should be careful to mouth off about stuff you have no clue about.

 

[L.Y.S.]

The west always protects terrorists when they terrorizes their enemies, but they always cry when those same terrorists come back to terrorize the west. I feel no sympathy when those terrorists do come back to hurt westerners. You lay in bed with snakes, you get bit by them.

 

[timhau]

Oh, I know. If there's anyone unpalatable on the side you don't like, it's proof they're wrong. If you're in bed with someone unpalatable, well, they're really OK at heart, or at least better than the other side, or at least it's ad hominem.

Yawn.

 

[L.Y.S.]

So both sides suck, go figure. The issue here at the heart of this seems to be that the country is extremely divided about its destiny. People for EU-integration seem to want to lump the entire country in the EU. People who are pro-Russia want to lump the entire country with Russia. It is clear that eastern and southern Ukraine want nothing to do with the EU. It is clear that western and central Ukraine wants nothing to do with Russia.

Literally the best choice is for an even split of the country and for the two separate halves to go their own ways.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Oh, I know. If there's anyone unpalatable on the side you don't like, it's proof they're wrong. If you're in bed with someone unpalatable, well, they're really OK at heart, or at least better than the other side, or at least it's ad hominem.

Yawn.

No, you don't know. You are totally clueless.

Ukrainian rabbi tells Kiev's Jews to flee city

News situation is extremely contradictory over the day. Apparently the Gas Princess was released and has spoken at the Maidan and proclaimed that it's "not over" although the parliament booted the president or something. We'll have to wait and see.

Klimax, do you know for what the Gas Princess was in prison?

 

[L.Y.S.]

No, you don't know. You are totally clueless.

That's the funny thing Childlike Empress, people against totally EU integration are arguing the protestors consist mainly of anti-Semites and neo-Nazis. It's amazing how Timhau was able to flip the situation back on its head and point the anti-Jewish finger at us when we've been saying all along that a bunch of swastika loving nuts are leading the charge against the government. Jews are now having to fear for their lives.

 

[Checkmite]

There has already been concessions to hold elections no later than December. The 2004 constitution has been restored. I'm not seeing what else the protestors are whining about.

Yes the legislature has passed those changes and reverted to the 2004 constitution; but the president still has to sign those bills into law. And where is the president? He's not currently in Kiev to do any signing. After announcing that he would agree to those concessions, he packed up and skipped town suddenly.

 

[marplots]

What is the point of those shields they are carrying? They don't look substantial enough to stop bullets.

 

[Childlike Empress]

So both sides suck, go figure. The issue here at the heart of this seems to be that the country is extremely divided about its destiny. People for EU-integration seem to want to lump the entire country in the EU. People who are pro-Russia want to lump the entire country with Russia. It is clear that eastern and southern Ukraine want nothing to do with the EU. It is clear that western and central Ukraine wants nothing to do with Russia.

Literally the best choice is for an even split of the country and for the two separate halves to go their own ways.

Almost the whole industry of Ukraine is in the east. All of it is dependent on access to the Russian market. Should they have to operate at standards set by the EU, all the factories would have to be sold for the symbolic Mark or Rubel as it happened in the GDR and to a lesser extent in Czechoslovakia etc. The people who run this stuff and really the country are a small handful of oligarchs with the Gas Princess being a newcomer and Rinat Achmetow being the king. Ukraine is totally dependent on Russian energy. "Western Ukraine" is not able to sustain itself by any means but total sponsorship of the EU and that is not on offer and never will be, as far as I can see.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Almost the whole industry of Ukraine is in the east. All of it is dependent on access to the Russian market. Should they have to operate at standards set by the EU, all the factories would have to be sold for the symbolic Mark or Rubel as it happened in the GDR and to a lesser extent in Czechoslovakia etc. The people who run this stuff and really the country are a small handful of oligarchs with the Gas Princess being a newcomer and Rinat Achmetow being the king. Ukraine is totally dependent on Russian energy. "Western Ukraine" is not able to sustain itself by any means but total sponsorship of the EU and that is not on offer and never will be, as far as I can see.

So basically Eastern Ukr is where all the wealth is and if they decide to pack up and go east western Ukraine is screwed? Well perhaps western Ukraine will get that modern economy it always wanted. On the flip side, I don't see eastern Ukraine agreeing to an EU deal. I just don't. The only peaceful option is a split, though I agree a western Ukraine would be poor, this is exactly what was argued during the start of this 10 page thread. People kept ignoring this fact for whatever reason. Ukraine even if the whole joined the EU would be poor for decades. If western Ukraine joined it would be poor as well. Again, I don't see eastern Ukraine joining the EU.

 

[Checkmite]

The latest word is that Euromaidan members have found large collections of documents sunken into water behind a couple of Yanukovych's houses, and that they've handed these documents over to journalists for drying and preservation. This would certainly seem to make Euromaidan better stewards of potential evidence than the Svoboda party rioters.

 

[L.Y.S.]

The latest word is that Euromaidan members have found large collections of documents sunken into water behind a couple of Yanukovych's houses, and that they've handed these documents over to journalists for drying and preservation. This would certainly seem to make Euromaidan better stewards of potential evidence than the Svoboda party rioters.

I thought Euromaidan was just the collection of ongoing riots in Ukraine , not an actually party. I might be mistaken about this.

 

[Checkmite]

I thought Euromaidan was just the collection of ongoing riots in Ukraine , not an actually party. I might be mistaken about this.

I could be the one who is mistaken. There is a definite distinction between various opposition groups, but perhaps "Euromaidan" is indeed an umbrella term for all of them.

While the Svoboda party is very definitely anti-Yanukovych, I have a little difficulty believing that neo-nazis/hardline nationalists like Svoboda would be in favor of EU integration and the multiculturalism that would tend to be attached to that.

 

[L.Y.S.]

I could be the one who is mistaken. There is a definite distinction between various opposition groups, but perhaps "Euromaidan" is indeed an umbrella term for all of them.

While the Svoboda party is very definitely anti-Yanukovych, I have a little difficulty believing that neo-nazis/hardline nationalists like Svoboda would be in favor of EU integration and the multiculturalism that would tend to be attached to that.

Svoboda is definitely the party leading the charge from my understanding. Nationalism is one of the driving factors behind the conflict.

 

[Childlike Empress]

So basically Eastern Ukr is where all the wealth is and if they decide to pack up and go east western Ukraine is screwed? Well perhaps western Ukraine will get that modern economy its always wanted. On the flip side, I don't see eastern Ukraine agreeing to an EU deal. I just don't. The only peaceful option is a split, though I agree a western Ukraine would be poor, this is exactly what was argued during the start of this 10 page thread. People kept ignoring this fact for whatever reason. Ukraine even if the whole joined the EU would be poor for decades. If western Ukraine joined it would be poor as well. Again, I don't see eastern Ukraine joining the EU.

The EU has never offered anything close to a full membership. That "association" agreement carries already enough problems. Turkey will enter before Ukraine does, if you know what I mean. But a good lot of the really peaceful protestors on the ground have completely utopic ideas about what that "path to EU" would contain, like unconditional basic income tomorrow. Likely it is similar to Syria and other places, that the people know that the "state media" is not trustworthy and therefore suck up everything that comes from the outside, with catastrophic consequences if that media is also corrupt, and even more and systematically so, like Al Jazeera and Al Arabiya were in the Syria thing. Excellent documentary on this phenomenon here.

"Maidan" is the main square in Kiev like "Tahrir" was in Cairo and was renamed "Euromaidan" by activists/propagandists.