Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[anglolawyer]

None of the tow truck people heard the scream. Raffaele's house cleaner testified that she cleaned his place on the 5th and there was no smell of bleach. You think they waited four days to clean the knife and put it back in the drawer? How long does the smell of bleach last?

Yes the tow truck, the need to screw around with Nara and Toto (who never sees them leave or return to their positions, presumably now covered in blood but not concerned that anyone might connect them with the bold-curdling scream that echoed around the valley and penetrated walls) and to posit that Meredith came home and stood still for an hour and a half waiting to be murdered. We don't get told why they hung around in the square from 9.30 nor what Rudy was doing or how he fits in either.

Where is the conclusive evidence that forces us to accept all this? The bathmat print would do it, so could a detailed confession that described and explained everything and didn't appear coerced, or DNA evidence that withstood scrutiny etc. it's not there.

ETA Ninja'd multiple times by other lightweights

 

[acbytesla]

There are plenty of non believers in churches including often in front of everybody (The preacher) but just saying that Churches complaining about Freemasons treating each other preferentially is a "Pot calling the Kettle Black" situation.

Of course it is. I also think that kind of preferential treatment goes only so far.
People trust their instincts more than they do the other nonsense.

Never the less, who you know and who you blow is very often more important than what you know.

 

[Matthew Best]

This is a great example of thread comprised by a bunch of light weights.

lionking! Briars is insulting you!

(And himself. But don't tell him, I don't think he's realised yet.)

 

[anglolawyer]

lionking! Briars is insulting you!

(And himself. But don't tell him, I don't think he's realised yet.)

Briars is a she.

 

[Matthew Best]

Briars is a she.

This is the internet. Everyone says they're a she.

 

[acbytesla]

This is the internet. Everyone says they're a she.

Funny.

 

[Antony]

Bleach may have been used to clean the kitchen surfaces or bathroom more then once. Why think it was only for the knife? Another wipe down could have occurred prior to the police visit. I am sure police can easily identify the smell of bleach. The tow truck arrived after the scream and murder. Nara not looking at the clock thought it was later but it was all over by 10:30 IMO.

If that's the case then the claimed "smell of bleach" reported by the police cannot be related to cleaning of the murder weapon.

Earlier you complained about "irrelevant" details in the PIP accounts. Why do you bring up the "smell of bleach" and then link it to later, unrelated cleaning of the kitchen?

 

[Desert Fox]

"Smell of Bleach" really is impossible to defend against
Effectively, sounds like you are not allowed to actually call the Italian police liars even if they are.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

"Smell of Bleach" really is impossible to defend against
Effectively, sounds like you are not allowed to actually call the Italian police liars even if they are.

This "smell of bleach" thing is yet another 2007 fable that was cleared up years ago but has been trotted out again, now that everyone has forgotten the original trial.

It is a pitiful, desperate fable to begin with, because it concerns Raffaele's apartment, not the crime scene where the mythical "clean-up" is alleged to have taken place.

But, in any case, here are the facts:

A police officer took the stand in March 2009 and testified that the apartment smelled clean, not that it smelled of bleach. He was followed by Raffaele's cleaning lady, one Rosa Fernandez, who also testified. It turns out she went through the place with a scented cleanser called Lysoform on Nov. 5, 2007, the day before the cops did their search. That is what they smelled.

 

[RoseMontague]

1. Coerce a confession/accusation
2. Wiretap everybody that could possibly be connected to anybody and cherry pick stuff that might sound incriminating
3. Use cell phone information to show a suspect at a location even if they weren't
4. Look for evidence that confirms your theory and ignore everything else.
5. Use osmosis and the Let's Pretend method of reasoning.

Case closed.

 

[katy_did]

You want me to explain in English what is written in Italian with science and legalese combined? A difficult assignment (for me).

Here is part of what is said (starting at page 50):

Crini's horribly disjointed way of speaking doesn't make things any easier either! This is my reading of the relevant part:

...this real guru of the subject, this Professor Peter Gill, who is as stated a man who is a member of the International Society of Forensic Genetics, in a conference in Rome in 2012, which happened more or less at the same time as the publication cited by the professor, notes from a reading of the trace on the clasp that Sollecito is clearly present. Professor Balding from the Genetic Institute at the University of London later did the same in a paper from July 2013.

It sounds as if Gill was cited by someone else in court (probably Conti and Vecchiotti?).

In light of the two recent BBC programs concerning the Kercher Case I think it would be interesting to have Gill and Balding together discussing the DNA testing methods and the results.

It would be very interesting, but my suspicion actually is that Balding would defer to Gill on the issue of contamination and transfer, as he's said already this isn't his area. They might very well agree on the likelihood or not of Sollecito's DNA being present.

P.S. Well spotted, by the way.

 

[anglolawyer]

1. Coerce a confession/accusation
2. Wiretap everybody that could possibly be connected to anybody and cherry pick stuff that might sound incriminating
3. Use cell phone information to show a suspect at a location even if they weren't
4. Look for evidence that confirms your theory and ignore everything else.
5. Use osmosis and the Let's Pretend method of reasoning.

Case closed.

6. Spread lies and release 'unusable' material to the press to ensure a fair trial.

 

[acbytesla]

This "smell of bleach" thing is yet another 2007 fable that was cleared up years ago but has been trotted out again, now that everyone has forgotten the original trial.

It is a pitiful, desperate fable to begin with, because it concerns Raffaele's apartment, not the crime scene where the mythical "clean-up" is alleged to have taken place.

But, in any case, here are the facts:

A police officer took the stand in March 2009 and testified that the apartment smelled clean, not that it smelled of bleach. He was followed by Raffaele's cleaning lady, one Rosa Fernandez, who also testified. It turns out she went through the place with a scented cleanser called Lysoform on Nov. 5, 2007, the day before the cops did their search. That is what they smelled.

That is classic Charlie. So the guilters start talking about bleach as if even if the place was cleaned with bleach, that wouldn't make it incriminating and it wasn't actually bleach any way.

Another Red Herring.

 

[RoseMontague]

It would be very interesting, but my suspicion actually is that Balding would defer to Gill on the issue of contamination and transfer, as he's said already this isn't his area. They might very well agree on the likelihood or not of Sollecito's DNA being present.

Maybe so although Balding seems more concerned with the interpretation of the egrams rather than the reliability and repeatability of the evidence or the collection and handling end of things. The pro-guilt crowd has certainly latched on to him. I think he has blinders on.

 

[katy_did]

Maybe so although Balding seems more concerned with the interpretation of the egrams rather than the reliability and repeatability of the evidence or the collection and handling end of things. The pro-guilt crowd has certainly latched on to him. I think he has blinders on.

That's basically what I mean. He'd be able to talk about the statistical likelihood of Sollecito's DNA being present based on the egrams, but I don't think he would even attempt to challenge Gill's opinion on the issue of contamination and transfer because he doesn't know enough about the subject (and seems to be aware that he doesn't know enough, since he's already said that's not really his area).

 

[katy_did]

Hans is telling me that the German edition of the BBC3 "documentary" is 20 minutes longer and includes a long interview with Charles Mudede and also plays on the racist angle to the max. It also includes an interview with Rudy"s shrink at prison who says Rudy's changing stories is a sign he is innocent.

So this is obviously the bit the BBC edited out because they considered it to be too biased.

Wow. I said before I didn't think I could respect Vogt any less, but she will just keep on surprising me.

 

[RoseMontague]

That's basically what I mean. He'd be able to talk about the statistical likelihood of Sollecito's DNA being present based on the egrams, but I don't think he would even attempt to challenge Gill's opinion on the issue of contamination and transfer because he doesn't know enough about the subject (and seems to be aware that he doesn't know enough, since he's already said that's not really his area).

Yes, he qualifies his opinion rather than doing the ethical thing when you are supporting a pro-guilt stance, in my opinion. Perhaps a little research and self education in these areas would be called for. He has to realize how his opinion is being used to promote guilt.

 

[anglolawyer]

Yes, he qualifies his opinion rather than doing the ethical thing when you are supporting a pro-guilt stance, in my opinion. Perhaps a little research and self education in these areas would be called for. He has to realize how his opinion is being used to promote guilt.

As I understand it, which is not much, his work is mainly statistical. He has calculated the odds that Raffaele's profile is present among those said to have been derived from the clasp. He does not address any of the prior problems that attend that claimed result. Apparently, he doesn't even know what EDFs are or why they matter.

 

[katy_did]

Yes, he qualifies his opinion rather than doing the ethical thing when you are supporting a pro-guilt stance, in my opinion. Perhaps a little research and self education in these areas would be called for. He has to realize how his opinion is being used to promote guilt.

Sure, I can't disagree there. Since he admits he doesn't know very much about the subject, he should simply state that while he believes Sollecito's DNA is present, he can't give an opinion as to how it got there nor can he rule out contamination, as that's not his area of expertise. Not say it isn't his area only to go on and give a dangerously half-informed opinion anyway.

He would be exposed badly in a conversation with Gill (at least, he would if he even attempted to give an opinion on how the DNA got there, which somehow I doubt he would. I suspect he would be a little more cautious in conversation with a "real guru" on the topic, LOL).

 

[anglolawyer]

Sure, I can't disagree there. Since he admits he doesn't know very much about the subject, he should simply state that while he believes Sollecito's DNA is present, he can't give an opinion as to how it got there nor can he rule out contamination, as that's not his area of expertise. Not say it isn't his area only to go on and give a dangerously half-informed opinion anyway.

He would be exposed badly in a conversation with Gill (at least, he would if he even attempted to give an opinion on how the DNA got there, which somehow I doubt he would. I suspect he would be a little more cautious in conversation with a "real guru" on the topic, LOL).

He did say those things in the paper that was circulating some time back.