Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[RandyN]

How sensitive (common use LJ) is TMB to blood? Is it less sensitive than luminol? Could a diluted trace of blood light up under luminol but not react to TMB. My research says yes

If Stefanoni suspected that the TMB test was not reliable it is incumbent upon her both as a scientist and what should be a neutral officer of the court to perform the required tests to prove that the secondary TMB test was unreliable.[/quote[

Certainly you are not deferring to Steffi's expertise. Remember she forgot to mention the negative TMB test so she could say blood without additional tests.



Since no one knows what it is was I will entertain that it could be a very diluted blood from some event unrelated to the murder. The prosecution should have top show that it was Meredith's blood or at least blood and that they were Amanda's footprints.

Sure you can say dilute blood but without the statistics it is meaningless. My research suggests that there is life on some other planet.

My suggestion is impossible to prove for now. Your suggestion however is easily proved by the most basic of already available and numerous different tests. Was this diluted blood?

You already mentioned that Stefanoni failed to do these simple confirmatory tests. This is not cutting edge microbiology work to test for blood in a suspect sample BTW... certainly nothing as difficult as LCN/LTN DNA testing.

So I reject your conclusion in this particular murder case example since a simple test procedure was ignored in favor of a no test baseless wild speculation...if you wish to ignore the statistics on false TMB test results fine... conclude away.

Its possible the moon is made from cheese...not our moon but Saturn moons certainly. I'm not going to test that...because I don't want to. But I am a doctor...just like Stefanoni is so...

This luminol has always been nothing but an irrelevant distraction. Why not go with Super General Garafanos conclusions about the luminol...This was some of the sloppiest work he has ever seen...completely botched luminol work by Stefanoni and company...from DD IIRC.

 

[acbytesla]

Some news reports now have Quintavalle remembering, 6 years later, that he'd seen Rudy and Raffaele together.

I wonder if this is just paranoia on our part? If Quint now says that he saw Rudy and Raffaele together would truly be despicable if people believed him. The only positive I see from this report is that what it really shows is just how unreliable and how time and the moldability of Q's mind.

 

[Bill Williams]

It's not Devil worship Bill, but you're right that Christians and those in the Catholic church in particular see it as a threat and call it Devil worship. There are a lot of trappings that are remotely similar to religion. But you don't worship any God and certainly NOT the devil. That some consider it devil worship says more about Christianity and Catholicism than it does about Free Masonry. A Freemason would never ever tell someone that as a member they couldn't be Catholic. But Catholic and Christian texts suggest that if you are not "with them" you are "against them" and that the Devil is anything that might take you away from their God. That the "anti-Christ is swaddled in what appears to be innocent clothes.

Freemasonry does not intend to counter or oppose anyone's religious beliefs but to supplement them. But a lot of religions see this as encroachment on their ..or as they would put it God's dominion over them.

I was invited as a teenager to more than a few Demolay sponsored events and was asked a few times to join. Demolay is kind of an American "Jr Masons" The main principle is that we believe in a higher purpose than ourselves. That we help and support others. The Freemasons are a hugely charitable organization holding countless charitable events. Some of the things I did at the Demolay events as a teenager was pick fruit at a bunch of Freemasons homes and transported and donated it to the food bank. We visited the local hospitals and even the prison and brought treats. I actually loved it, but never joined because of time constraints at the time.

Was it you who was involved in couriering the money to Hellmann?

Machiavelli wants to talk with you if so.

 

[Bill Williams]

I wonder if this is just paranoia on our part? If Quint now says that he saw Rudy and Raffaele together would truly be despicable if people believed him. The only positive I see from this report is that what it really shows is just how unreliable and how time and the moldability of Q's mind.

I'm a lightweight, so why not?

Perhaps I could do a Machiavelli and just say that this theory is "compatible with" something Quintavalle could have said.

 

[RandyN]

Irony, irony, everywhere irony. I have gotten (note US usage) to know Diocletus a little and I kinda (ditto) think he was making a subtle point.

Define 'irony'. Impossible. Same with 'torque'.

I can define torque. In the morning when you go into the bathroom and have that morning wood thing and you push down on it so as to make the shot...that resistance is torque. Moving on...

So have the Kerchers come out against RG day release to attend college classes? Or are they perhaps funding his education? Something is causing a dead silence on that matter.

 

[GWCarver]

If this is true, I wonder why our favorite magistrate feels he needs additional evidence at this late stage? Maybe he heard something from the ISC through the grapevine that might be favorable to Raffaele and Amanda?

 

[acbytesla]

Was it you who was involved in couriering the money to Hellmann?

Machiavelli wants to talk with you if so.

I'm sure he does. But I never became a Freemason or a even a Demolay. I don't know the secret grip or other rituals But doing as you suggest would be against the law and therefore against the code of ethics for a Freemason as I understand them.

Also the idea that Amanda was and is a Freemason is pretty absurd. It's pretty much limited to men. (There are a very few female lodges...but they aren't recognized).

 

[christianahannah]

christianahannah,

What did he say? Can you provide any context? Thank you.

You want me to explain in English what is written in Italian with science and legalese combined? A difficult assignment (for me).

Here is part of what is said (starting at page 50):

Ecco, che sia spendibile ce lo dicono esattamente gli stessi scienziati che egli nomina nella sua relazione, perché io poi ho chiesto un po’ conto, per orientarmi, perché Dio mio, ti arriva tutta una spaparanzata di roba, ecco, e viene fuori sostanzialmente che questo autentico guru della materia, il professor Peter Gill, è per l’appunto un signore che è membro della Società Scientifica Internazionale di Genetica Forense, che, diciamo, in un convegno romano dell’aprile del 2012, che è più o meno coevo, loro vedranno, alla pubblicazione che il professore ha citato, diciamo, dà per pacifica, dalla lettura della traccia sul gancetto, la presenza di Sollecito. Ma lo stesso fa anche il professor Balding, che è dell’Istituto Genetico dell’Università di Londra, in un saggio successivo, del luglio del 2013.

I think Crini is referring to this conference which was held in April 2012:

http://roma.unicatt.it/events_POSTER_DNA.pdf

Also to the publication by Balding here (I am linking the abstract, but the whole I know you are familiar with):

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/06/28/1219739110.abstract

There is a bit more but I am definitely not an authority on any of this. There are those who can bring more understanding to this than I. But I think he is citing them as favorable to the prosecution's case.

To add a bit more to the conversation here is an an article referencing both Gill and Balding.

http://www.newscientist.com/article...ot-on-crime-scene-bra-clasp.html#.Uwgbmn-9KSM

In light of the two recent BBC programs concerning the Kercher Case I think it would be interesting to have Gill and Balding together discussing the DNA testing methods and the results.

 

[Poppy1016]

Bleach may have been used to clean the kitchen surfaces or bathroom more then once. Why think it was only for the knife? Another wipe down could have occurred prior to the police visit. I am sure police can easily identify the smell of bleach. The tow truck arrived after the scream and murder. Nara not looking at the clock thought it was later but it was all over by 10:30 IMO.

So you think Curatolo did not see them from 9-12 ?

 

[RWVBWL]

Wet Trousers?

Hi Briars,
You and other Pro-Guilters do not believe that the footprint found on the bathmat is from Rudy Guede, right?




But it appears to have been made with diluted, bloody water.

Here is a passage from Rudy Guede's German Prison Diary,
written as he awaits extradition back to Italy:

"I left the house in shock. I was outside, but didn’t know
where to go, seeing still all that blood. It was all so red. I
thought of going home. I had wet trousers and tried to
cover it with the sweatshirt. There were a lot of people in
the street, in Piazza Grimana. There were some guys still
playing basketball even though it was dark."

Rudy does not write that he had bloody trousers,
just wet trousers.

How and when did Rudy Guede's trousers get wet?
RW

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

That is another problem no one seems to remember much of what was said . In one ear out the other. I already told you Grinder that Nara was off on her time and I believe it to be around 10:30. You argued she should have looked at her clock in the kitchen. I believe she heard the scream after having gone to the bathroom after 10pm. I think we took the whether or not she would have necessarily looked at the clock as far as we could.

I personally think Nara's testimony is virtually meaningless. If it's a very specific time of death established by hard science versus one old woman's possible confabulation long after the event, we should take the scientific value to be the primary way of placing the time of death. I don't know what if anything she heard or when she heard it, and I don't think we should much care. Far, far better evidence than Nara's recollection places the time of death at 21:10 to 21:30, and Nara's recollection is relevant to nothing except the time of death.

What are the wide range of substances BTW , not bleach at that point .

Chris already gave you a list, but lots of things other than blood found in a house react with luminol. Since the luminol splodges do not form a trail coming out of the murder room, and the luminol splodges tested negative for both blood and Meredith's DNA, the idea that the splodges are Meredith's blood is pretty crazy. About all we can say with certainty is that whatever they are, they probably aren't traces of Meredith's blood.

We'll probably never know what they are. They could be all sorts of things that got there in all sorts of ways, and it was a long time ago now.

I answered I had no information about a search of Lumumba's do you have conclusive evidence they didn't search. If you find out they did not what are you saying?You think they knew he was innocent? They got Amanda to say his name so they could wrap up the case and be at Nonna's for Sunday dinner?

Let's just say that the police's behaviour isn't very consistent with them actually believing that Lumumba was the killer and that multiple knives were involved. If you think about it, even after the kitchen knife miracle the Mignini/Massei narrative still had two other knives in play that were never found. So why didn't the police turn Lumumba's bar upside down and test every pointy thing in the place for blood and DNA?

Why take just one knife from Raffaele's that didn't even match the wounds, and none from Lumumba's?

It looks to me like the police actions only make sense if they knew it would be pointless to test the knives at Raffaele and Lumumba's places. Yet how could they know that, unless they knew Raffaele and Lumumba were innocent?

Then you might think they left the clasp on purpose, another not innocent oversight.

You might indeed think that. They would have been pretty desperate to find something to pin on Raffaele at that point, since they were tapping his family's phones and would have known that the one piece of evidence they had against him, the shoe print, was about to be busted.

I think they entered Sollecito's apartment and were struck by the strong smell of bleach as they reported. Might make them want to check the cutlery drawer , good thing.

You do know that bleach reacts with luminol, and luminol was used to test Raffaele's apartment without finding anything incriminating? That combined with the cleaner's statement that she didn't use bleach makes me think that the "strong smell of bleach" was a figment of the police officer's fertile imagination.

In any case, the starch found on the knife blade proves definitively that it was never cleaned with bleach. So even if we ignore the contrary evidence and believe Raffaele was indeed bleaching something, it can't have been that knife.

Also, why that one knife? It was the biggest knife in the drawer, to be sure, but there were other knives potentially compatible with some of Meredith's wounds. Once again this only makes sense if the police knew in advance that testing the other knives was pointless. That pretty much leaves either psychic powers or deliberate misconduct and I don't believe in psychic powers.

Finally , I have told you more than once what Amanda told them that they knew to be true. She told them she went out as RS had just confirmed. She told them that not only did she not have an alibi but she knew a lot more about the murder then she had let on.

Hang on, how do you think the police knew these things to be true at that point in time?

Of course suspicion was limited to her outbursts over the knives with Mignini , the suspicious shower tale and fake break-in.

There's nothing suspicious about the shower tale at all, that was always very silly indeed. There was never any evidence of a fake break-in either, just evidence of an aborted break-in.

 

[acbytesla]

Let's just say that the police's behaviour isn't very consistent with them actually believing that Lumumba was the killer and that multiple knives were involved. If you think about it, even after the kitchen knife miracle the Mignini/Massei narrative still had two other knives in play that were never found. So why didn't the police turn Lumumba's bar upside down and test every pointy thing in the place for blood and DNA?

Why take just one knife from Raffaele's that didn't even match the wounds, and none from Lumumba's?

Also, why that one knife? It was the biggest knife in the drawer, to be sure, but there were other knives potentially compatible with some of Meredith's wounds. Once again this only makes sense if the police knew in advance that testing the other knives was pointless. That pretty much leaves either psychic powers or deliberate misconduct and I don't believe in psychic powers.

Very good Kevin. Let me add just one thing to your theme of "Why that one knife?" Not only, why did they only test Raffaele's knives, (his pocket knives and the one cooking knife) why didn't they test any of the practically dozen knives that could have killed Meredith that were at the cottage?

It is the difference between a suspect focused investigation than an evidence focused investigation.

 

[RWVBWL]

Where's the other bloody shoeprints in Meredith's bedroom?

You should get your facts straight on this. Here are the tracks F, I, Y and H in their proper order indicated by the fading of the print. F, I and Y are headed towards the door and in fact, Y is close enough to at least see the lock requiring a key if not actually try to open the door. Print H is multiple imprints in front of the couch always facing away from the door.

The prints G and J are not part of this series. They form a separate trail with the same stride as the first but an unidentified part of the shoe.

Hi Dan O.,
Your photo's have me wondering something else.
I'm curious about Guede's shoe prints in Meredith's bedroom.

There are 5 of them found on the pillow underneath her,

and 3 near the foot of her bed, as this photo from IIP shows.

Link:
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/footprints-04.html

But nowhere else in her bedroom.
Shouldn't there be more?

There are no bloody shoeprints even on any of her clothing lying near her foot

between those shoeprints found near her bed and the pillow

Nor up near the blooded area where Meredith's light blue sweatshirt/jacket lies



Guede writes in his German Prison Diary,
that when he left Meredith to die he covered his wet trousers with the sweatshirt.

I'm gonna speculate here that maybe before he left, Rudy Guede took of his sweatshirt before he undid his pants, digitally fondled and raped Meredith, masturbated himself to climax, and left that probable semen stain on the pillow.

That probable semen stain appears on the pillow in 2 places, in 1 spot Guede steps in it and leaves another bloody shoeprint. I wonder, was any semen found on Meredith's body in the same general area as the 2 probable semen stains found on the pillow?

But there isn't any other bloody shoeprints from the pillow until the bed,

near that only slightly bloody white towel seen here? Why not?

Maybe Guede's sweatshirt was lying on the floor on top of Meredith's pants, panties or bra, and he stepped on his own sweatshirt with his bloody shoeprints too before he retrieved it, which might explain the lack of further bloody shoeprints from where Meredith lay until those found at the front of bed and then out of the room.

Thoughts?...

 

[Poppy1016]

Very good Kevin. Let me add just one thing to the question of your theme of "Why that one knife?" Not only, why did they only test Raffaele's knives, (his pocket knives and the once cooking knife) why didn't they test any of the practically dozen knives that could have killed Meredith that were at the cottage?

It is the difference between a suspect focused investigation than an evidence focused investigation.

If they had tested other knives from Raf's or from the cottage, they probably would have found AK DNA on several knives.

 

[Dan O.]

None of the tow truck people heard the scream.

None of the tow truck people would have been able to hear any scream over the screech the tow truck was making when it was lifting the broken down car. But that's not important since Nara was quite clear that the posters proclaiming the murder were on display at the kiosk the next morning. That means Meredith didn't actually scream until the night after Raffaele called the police.

Raffaele's house cleaner testified that she cleaned his place on the 5th and there was no smell of bleach. You think they waited four days to clean the knife and put it back in the drawer? How long does the smell of bleach last?

Doesn't anyone read the actual testimonies? I was just reading one where the officer present in Raffaele's flat when they acquired the knife said the flat smelled like it had been cleaned with soap. But then, how would a guy know what cleaning products smell like?

 

[Desert Fox]

As a Freemason it is understood that you will support a member ...if it is not against the law. It is also not incumbent for a freemason to preferentially support another mason instead of a non mason. But it sure wouldn't shock me that it works out that way.

I asked the owner of a small company if he would prefer to hire a Christian who is a bit lazy or a non-Christian who is a hard worker

Her said he would rather hire the Christian.

People often get jobs through their church.

 

[HotNostril]

I asked the owner of a small company if he would prefer to hire a Christian who is a bit lazy or a non-Christian who is a hard worker



Her said he would rather hire the Christian.



People often get jobs through their church.

Churches are full of atheists .... "Networking"

 

[Planigale]

I think this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21507168 article provides an interesting background to some of what we discuss. I particularly like the phrase "In Italy we are not used to being meritocratic through strictly objective criteria. We are used to doing it our own way." One wonders how much the poor quality of forensic science is a consequence of this way of doing things.

 

[Desert Fox]

Hi Dan O.,
Your photo's have me wondering something else.
I'm curious about Guede's shoe prints in Meredith's bedroom.

There are 5 of them found on the pillow underneath her,
[qimg]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/842/k1m2.jpg[/qimg]
and 3 near the foot of her bed, as this photo from IIP shows.

Looking at this drawing, four people are going to fight in this room without leaving marks and blood stains everywhere

 

[Desert Fox]

Churches are full of atheists .... "Networking"

There are plenty of non believers in churches including often in front of everybody (The preacher) but just saying that Churches complaining about Freemasons treating each other preferentially is a "Pot calling the Kettle Black" situation.