Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[GWCarver]

American presidents who were Masons, starting with George Washington:

http://www.pagrandlodge.org/mlam/presidents/index.html

 

[RandyN]

Well listening to the BBC radio 4 program. Not sure this reporter is versed enough about this case in order to ask proper or even any follow up questions to statements made by several Italians.

For example she allows unquestioned several illogical statements which require a follow up question IMHO.

1. "I am convinced it was RS, AK, and RG" together who killed MK. This sounds like it comes from Mignini but the reporter fails to ID the speaker. She should have asked what convinces him? Was he first convinced that it is was AK, RS and Lumumba? What changed? What facts convince you?

2. Maresca rambles on about theory of the crime without evidence. 40 wounds, no defensive wounds, so it had to be more than one. Well reporter ignores this...when the obvious question was...What evidence convinces you it was AK and RS and not someone else?

3. The reporter listens to Castagolia ramble on about nonsense..."RS told police nothing was stolen therefore he knew something only the real burglar would know"...which is complete nonsense...but she misses that and asks no follow ups.

4. He goes on with..."The police force the door but none of the young people see what is inside the room" ...who knows where this is going? Ding ding...yep now he concludes that "And yet later AK describes to her friends the exact position of the body". This guys is lying to the reporter and she has no way of knowing that and so she fails to ask follow up such as...Didn't AK describe the body inside the closet? This was wrong correct? Didn't a friend break down the door? Didn't Filomena scream "a foot!" Didn't the girlfriend of the door breaker also see into the room? Why yes...yes she did. Didn't AK ride to the police station with these two friends? Why yes...yes she did. Bad reporting due to unfamiliarity with the case.

5. Maresca talks about Lumumba accusation but the reporter fails to remind him that the ISC banned those statements due to illegal interrogation...she simply fails to understand the importance of Maresca relying on evidence not possible to be in the case.

6. Biscotti gets an unquestioned rambling period to lay out the Guede is the innocent sexual partner of MK...nothing more. Poor boy. Did she realize the overwhelming factual evidence against Guede? Not just DNA, but blood evidence, footprints and shoe prints and no questions for the lawyer about RG burglary history. What better chance to ask about RG Milan incident?? This is simply not hard. Why are incompetents doing these reports?

7. She talks to the reporter who found two of the "star witnesses". Toto and Quintinvale. She does no follow up questions about the odd statements of each star... Although she understands that Quintinvale comes after a year.

8. Amandas lawyer Gerghia refuses an interview...another idiotic failure of the defense. This is the same idiot who denied that AK was hit by police. Crap lawyers to the end. Knox can not afford to continue with these clowns...they are costing her the case. Del a Dope A wont make a statement about Necini and his odd improper statements about the case right after the reading of the guilty verdict. As if what? Necini will write a simple motivation that says...OH wait never mind....they are innocent?

9. Constigalota rambles unchallenged about the Bra clasp DNA that never left the murder room...so how did RS get on it? Ahhhh how about a thousand footsteps tramping from room to room and stepping on every thing including blood, DNA, and even dust...and then walking other places say...stepping on the bra clasp perhaps??? Dumb, dumb...

10. Semen stain is argued away as not datable, and MK had a boyfriend...???? So we didn't want to confuse the case? How stupid is that? And if it is Koko semen?

In the end she concludes that there is no proof beyond reasonable doubt but she thinks the case will never be solved... meanwhile ignoring the overwhelming evidence that RG robbed, raped and murdered poor Miss Kercher all by himself.

How hard is this really?

All in all not a terrible piece but the reporter needed a consultant certainly. Did Frank die or what?

 

[RandyN]

dupe

 

[RoseMontague]

I did mean what is the goal of the Masons in regards to Amanda Knox. . . .
Of interest though, every Freemason I have met has been black.

Burleigh's book, A Fatal Gift of Beauty, has quite a bit on Masons and how it relates to this case.

 

[Bill Williams]

I did mean what is the goal of the Masons in regards to Amanda Knox. . . .
Of interest though, every Freemason I have met has been black.

None. But then again a Master Mason at our local lodge paid me big, big bucks to say that.

Women cannot become Masons.

However, this question needs to be addressed to Machiavelli. He's the one who claims to know the amount of Euros it took to pay-off Hellmann, that well-known Mason and corrupter of Italy.

I can only offer a wild guess. Mignini is a conservative Catholic, and Masons have always been seen as in competition with the RC Church particularly. Masons have been accused of eroding the authority of priests, and so I suppose are seen as corrupting the populace as a result.

If one believes that the RC Church is the only way to heaven, then Masons are actively corrupting non-secular-society. Masons would be in favour of the crucifix being removed from Perugian courtrooms; and cause other havoc in Italians' lives.

The extreme view is that Masons are into devil worship. Machiavelli has to, then, tread lightly around this because he reacts very, very vociferously to ANY suggestion that Mignini once entertained a "Satanic Rite" motive for this murder.

Yet, Machiavelli also sees the Masons as instrumental in springing an obviously guilty murderer.

I think the better point is - what's Masonry's position on Raffaele or Rudy? I suppose a real conspiratorial type could get into a lather about them too....

 

[Bill Williams]

Burleigh's book, A Fatal Gift of Beauty, has quite a bit on Masons and how it relates to this case.

I completely missed that! Can you summarize in three or four sentences?

 

[christianahannah]

The early part of the programme leaves some misimpressions with respect to the window. Sgt. Pasquali's demonstration of how the rock was thrown remains definitive IMO. However, Peter Gill's comments are very helpful. Here are a few recent papers on which he is a coauthor:

Database extraction strategies for low-template evidence.
Bleka O, Dørum G, Haned H, Gill P.
Forensic Sci Int Genet. 2014 Mar;9:134-41. doi: 10.1016/j.fsigen.2013.11.006. Epub 2013 Dec 11.
PMID: 24528591 [PubMed - in process]

Exact computation of the distribution of likelihood ratios with forensic applications.
Dørum G, Bleka O, Gill P, Haned H, Snipen L, Sæbø S, Egeland T.
Forensic Sci Int Genet. 2014 Mar;9:93-101. doi: 10.1016/j.fsigen.2013.11.008. Epub 2013 Dec 9.
PMID: 24528587 [PubMed - in process]

Euroforgen-NoE collaborative exercise on LRmix to demonstrate standardization of the interpretation of complex DNA profiles.
Prieto L, Haned H, Mosquera A, Crespillo M, Alemañ M, Aler M, Alvarez F, Baeza-Richer C, Dominguez A, Doutremepuich C, Farfán MJ, Fenger-Grøn M, García-Ganivet JM, González-Moya E, Hombreiro L, Lareu MV, Martínez-Jarreta B, Merigioli S, Milans Del Bosch P, Morling N, Muñoz-Nieto M, Ortega-González E, Pedrosa S, Pérez R, Solís C, Yurrebaso I, Gill P.
Forensic Sci Int Genet. 2014 Mar;9:47-54. doi: 10.1016/j.fsigen.2013.10.011. Epub 2013 Oct 31.
PMID: 24528579 [PubMed - in process]

A new methodological framework to interpret complex DNA profiles using likelihood ratios.
Gill P, Haned H.
Forensic Sci Int Genet. 2013 Feb;7(2):251-63. doi: 10.1016/j.fsigen.2012.11.002. Epub 2012 Dec 14.
PMID: 23245914 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Exploratory data analysis for the interpretation of low template DNA mixtures.
Haned H, Slooten K, Gill P.
Forensic Sci Int Genet. 2012 Dec;6(6):762-74. doi: 10.1016/j.fsigen.2012.08.008. Epub 2012 Sep 13.
PMID: 22981542 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

DNA commission of the International Society of Forensic Genetics: Recommendations on the evaluation of STR typing results that may include drop-out and/or drop-in using probabilistic methods.
Gill P, Gusmão L, Haned H, Mayr WR, Morling N, Parson W, Prieto L, Prinz M, Schneider H, Schneider PM, Weir BS.
Forensic Sci Int Genet. 2012 Dec;6(6):679-88. doi: 10.1016/j.fsigen.2012.06.002. Epub 2012 Aug 3.
PMID: 22864188 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

High-throughput analysis using AmpFlSTR® Identifiler® with the Applied Biosystems 3500xl Genetic Analyser.
Kirkham A, Haley J, Haile Y, Grout A, Kimpton C, Al-Marzouqi A, Gill P.
Forensic Sci Int Genet. 2013 Jan;7(1):92-7. doi: 10.1016/j.fsigen.2012.07.003. Epub 2012 Jul 25.
PMID: 22835329 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

European Network of Forensic Science Institutes (ENFSI): Evaluation of new commercial STR multiplexes that include the European Standard Set (ESS) of markers.
Welch LA, Gill P, Phillips C, Ansell R, Morling N, Parson W, Palo JU, Bastisch I.
Forensic Sci Int Genet. 2012 Dec;6(6):819-26. doi: 10.1016/j.fsigen.2012.03.005. Epub 2012 May 31.
PMID: 22658771 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

An evaluation of potential allelic association between the STRs vWA and D12S391: implications in criminal casework and applications to short pedigrees.
Gill P, Phillips C, McGovern C, Bright JA, Buckleton J.
Forensic Sci Int Genet. 2012 Jul;6(4):477-86. doi: 10.1016/j.fsigen.2011.11.001. Epub 2011 Dec 8.
PMID: 22153980 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Wow! Impressive! Do you know whether either defence teams quoted or used anything you listed in the 1st level trial or the Florence appeal?

I do not know if the defense quoted or used any publications from Peter Gill, however, Crini did mention Peter Gill along with David Balding, starting on page 50 of the November 26, 2013 closing arguments.

 

[acbytesla]

How sensitive (common use LJ) is TMB to blood? Is it less sensitive than luminol? Could a diluted trace of blood light up under luminol but not react to TMB. My research says yes

This is absolutely true. It might. It might be a false negative.

But suggesting that it is blood in a court of law negates the accepted principle that the burden of proof is on the prosecution. They must affirmatively prove their evidence. By allowing Stefanoni to suggest it is unreasonable to think that it isn't blood in my opinion is downright morally and should be criminally wrong without something more conclusive.

If Stefanoni suspected that the TMB test was not reliable it is incumbent upon her both as a scientist and what should be a neutral officer of the court to perform the required tests to prove that the secondary TMB test was unreliable.

Certainly you are not deferring to Steffi's expertise. Remember she forgot to mention the negative TMB test so she could say blood without additional tests.

I'd never defer to Steffi's expertise. Her expertise on this case has been abominable. I hope that she has learned a few things and has improved..

Since no one knows what it is was I will entertain that it could be a very diluted blood from some event unrelated to the murder. The prosecution should have top show that it was Meredith's blood or at least blood and that they were Amanda's footprints.

And it might might be fine for you Grinder to suggest that it might be blood in a forum without consequences, but to actually consider it in a courtroom is irresponsible. I'm also afraid it gives license to guilters to dismiss both that it isn't blood and that it isn't blood from an earlier time. It kind of wrongly keeps the ball in their court.

 

[RandyN]

That is another problem no one seems to remember much of what was said . In one ear out the other. I already told you Grinder that Nara was off on her time and I believe it to be around 10:30. You argued she should have looked at her clock in the kitchen. I believe she heard the scream after having gone to the bathroom after 10pm. I think we took the whether or not she would have necessarily looked at the clock as far as we could. What are the wide range of substances BTW , not bleach at that point . I answered I had no information about a search of Lumumba's do you have conclusive evidence they didn't search. If you find out they did not what are you saying?You think they knew he was innocent? They got Amanda to say his name so they could wrap up the case and be at Nonna's for Sunday dinner? Then you might think they left the clasp on purpose, another not innocent oversight. I think they entered Sollecito's apartment and were struck by the strong smell of bleach as they reported. Might make them want to check the cutlery drawer , good thing. Finally , I have told you more than once what Amanda told them that they knew to be true. She told them she went out as RS had just confirmed. She told them that not only did she not have an alibi but she knew a lot more about the murder then she had let on. She told them she was present at the cottage. Of course suspicion was limited to her outbursts over the knives with Mignini , the suspicious shower tale and fake break-in.

Oh good! And this is heavy weight? OK, what about your friend Toto? Or are you just imagining him away?

Nara woke up at 10? Why not 9? Why not say 4AM?

Quintinvale...how do feel about him? First when he tells police..." I saw nothing and remember nothing". And later when he what? Remembers AK coming in and buying nothing and has no receipts which confirms nothing was bought which indicates a dumb story rather than any sort of facts. BTW the police are sticking with the Quintinvale said he saw nothing story. How does a heavy weight remove these inconsistencies?

So far we have seen no DNA data about testing of any Lumumba evidence. Do you have something?

 

[Bill Williams]

Oh good! And this is heavy weight? OK, what about your friend Toto? Or are you just imagining him away?

Nara woke up at 10? Why not 9? Why not say 4AM?

Quintinvale...how do feel about him? First when he tells police..." I saw nothing and remember nothing". And later when he what? Remembers AK coming in and buying nothing and has no receipts which confirms nothing was bought which indicates a dumb story rather than any sort of facts. BTW the police are sticking with the Quintinvale said he saw nothing story. How does a heavy weight remove these inconsistencies?

So far we have seen no DNA data about testing of any Lumumba evidence. Do you have something?

Some news reports now have Quintavalle remembering, 6 years later, that he'd seen Rudy and Raffaele together.

 

[RandyN]

Bleach may have been used to clean the kitchen surfaces or bathroom more then once. Why think it was only for the knife? Another wipe down could have occurred prior to the police visit. I am sure police can easily identify the smell of bleach. The tow truck arrived after the scream and murder. Nara not looking at the clock thought it was later but it was all over by 10:30 IMO.

Well good then you agree it was impossible according to Curtalo that AK and RS were involved in any way at all. That was simple.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

mixed DNA is not uncommon

There are a number of items I have been reading

What exactly is the claim of mixed blood?

I dealt with this subject here. It is somewhat intertwined with the issue of luminol.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Crini and Gill

I do not know if the defense quoted or used any publications from Peter Gill, however, Crini did mention Peter Gill along with David Balding, starting on page 50 of the November 26, 2013 closing arguments.

christianahannah,

What did he say? Can you provide any context? Thank you.

 

[Bill Williams]

Ok.... I admit it. I'm a lightweight.

What does Free Masonry have to do with this? Well, according to Mingini (as rendered by Nina Burleigh) the removal of one shoe, is an ancient practise of Mansry.

So when Mignini sees Amanda hitting herself on the forehead like Masons do, and there's only one track of a shoe (not shoes) leading out the door.... the removal of a shoe is an ancient Masonic rite...... Perugia's reigning expert on the evils of Masonry springs to the defence of all right thinking Italians.

I'm a lightweight. Back to school.

 

[RoseMontague]

I completely missed that! Can you summarize in three or four sentences?

From The Fatal Gift of Beauty

There are twenty-four Masonic lodges in Perugia, making it Italy’s per capita center of Masonic activity. Perugians believe that members of those lodges secretly control most aspects of banking, business, and administration in their community—and that members get preference in promotions, loans, and jobs.
Mignini was not alone in his distrust of and suspicion about the Masons, although he took his suspicions to an obsessive level. Italians associate the Masons with both government conspiracy and occult ritual. Long reputed to have members in the highest levels of government and administration in Perugia, they have a secret handshake and a secret language. Italians share the nineteenth-century American conception of Masonry, when an entire political movement rose up to eradicate the society because it was assumed to hold too much power. Mussolini abolished Masonry in Italy in 1925, claiming it was a political organization. It has been allowed to return only in a supposedly neutered form.

 

[RoseMontague]

Some news reports now have Quintavalle remembering, 6 years later, that he'd seen Rudy and Raffaele together.

What is sad is that some people believe him.

 

[acbytesla]

It's a fraternal organization to provide fellowship to its members and "good works" to the community. It has no centralized, controling hierarchy; esp. in the sense that some hierarchical religions have.

I think this Wikipedia article gives the best synopsis of what some fear Free Masonry actually does.... why it should be opposed, and its so-called "dangers to society"....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_Freemasonry_within_Christianity

It seems that the basic complaint of some churches about it is that it is seen to be replacing the need for "the church", substituting its own organization as a substitute for the hierarchy of what the opposers say is the "true church", namely, their own. Free Masonry's sin it seems is that it challenges the authority of priests.

​

From what I read Freemasons are not required to believe in God, but the Roman Catholic hierarchy seems to ban Masonry over implied terms about God that sound Protestant.

As for what Free Masonry actually does, that may be limited only to the number of actual Masons.

​

The issue of contention is probably that some see Masons as offering a substitute for religion.

​

So, who knows. Perhaps the "goal" of Freemasonry is the same as the goal of all religion in general.

At the risk of enraging former posters to this thread - another critique of Masonry is that some claim it advocates Devil Worship. Who knows, maybe Amanda Knox is a Mason... performing a murder as part of a Masonic rite.... (I'll be damned if I say "S*t*n*c R*t*" here after being pilloried for saying so a while ago!!!!!)

It's not Devil worship Bill, but you're right that Christians and those in the Catholic church in particular see it as a threat and call it Devil worship. There are a lot of trappings that are remotely similar to religion. But you don't worship any God and certainly NOT the devil. That some consider it devil worship says more about Christianity and Catholicism than it does about Free Masonry. A Freemason would never ever tell someone that as a member they couldn't be Catholic. But Catholic and Christian texts suggest that if you are not "with them" you are "against them" and that the Devil is anything that might take you away from their God. That the "anti-Christ is swaddled in what appears to be innocent clothes.

Freemasonry does not intend to counter or oppose anyone's religious beliefs but to supplement them. But a lot of religions see this as encroachment on their ..or as they would put it God's dominion over them.

I was invited as a teenager to more than a few Demolay sponsored events and was asked a few times to join. Demolay is kind of an American "Jr Masons" The main principle is that we believe in a higher purpose than ourselves. That we help and support others. The Freemasons are a hugely charitable organization holding countless charitable events. Some of the things I did at the Demolay events as a teenager was pick fruit at a bunch of Freemasons homes and transported and donated it to the food bank. We visited the local hospitals and even the prison and brought treats. I actually loved it, but never joined because of time constraints at the time.

 

[Poppy1016]

I know, I know, the prosecution's case has been thoroughly debunked.

On the internet.

And this is an example of the "experts" they rely on:

"Ron Hendry is a retired Forensic Engineer (aka Accident Reconstructionist) with 28 years of experience at evaluating and reconstructing serious to fatal incidents based on the physical evidence. Mr. Hendry is a degreed Mechanical Engineer who held a Professional Engineering License during his consulting career. His body of work was primarily with regard civil litigation matters. However, his work has required him to interact extensively with police and review their reports, interview witnesses, review autopsy reports, and review statements and depositions of witnesses and experts. Ron has extensive experience in evaluating incidents from scene photos and witness testimony in cases where the physical evidence was no longer around. In several instances, Ron has evaluated injuries of those involved to ascertain how they occurred."

LOL.

Without sounding like a bully, could you tell us what "factual" evidence leads you to believe AK and RS are guilty?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the lack of Meredith's DNA in the luminol-positive stains

Believe the footprints were turnip juice coming out of the bedroom , I'm getting back to the Olympics and the Canadian women's great game!

Briars,

With respect to the luminol-positive/TMB-negative/DNA-negative areas, I asked the authors of a 2009 review article on the forensics of body fluid identification for their interpretation. Drs. Virkler and Lednev wrote, “So, there was either no blood and the luminol was wrong, or there was blood and the TMB had interference and the luminol damaged the DNA. We think it is more likely that there was no blood, and that the luminol was reacting with something else, possibly plant matter from the bottom of the shoes causing the footprints (the intensity of the luminol reaction might give some more insight). The prosecution should have used much more convincing evidence to prove the presence of blood.”

The lack of Meredith's DNA is as problematic for the hypothesis that the prints are made in blood as the negative TMB test (the presence of DNA is not a confirmatory test for blood, however). I posted about the Greg Taylor case in North Carolina to illustrate this point.

 

[acbytesla]

From The Fatal Gift of Beauty

There are twenty-four Masonic lodges in Perugia, making it Italy’s per capita center of Masonic activity. Perugians believe that members of those lodges secretly control most aspects of banking, business, and administration in their community—and that members get preference in promotions, loans, and jobs..

It wouldn't surprise me at all Rose that the highlighted part is TRUE.

Freemasonry is a FRATERNAL society. Members are socially involved with each other and the one thing I know to be true is that people are more inclined to do business with people they know. Also everything in Freemasonry is about being of good character. So why wouldn't you do business with another mason? Cheating another mason is reason to expel a member, so I'd say that Mignini's might have a good reason to be paranoid.

It also wouldn't surprise met that Mignini was blackballed from joining. Mignini's socio pathological and self centered tendencies would not be acceptable as a Freemason. Like Machiavelli, Mignini tends to follow the idea that the "ends justify the means". That is antithetical to being a Freemason.

As a Freemason it is understood that you will support a member ...if it is not against the law. It is also not incumbent for a freemason to preferentially support another mason instead of a non mason. But it sure wouldn't shock me that it works out that way.